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Extreme Turbulence - Owens Valley, CA, Today (Tuesday, 07Feb2017)

pvalovich

Well Known Member
Extreme turbulence in the southern part of Owens Valley yesterday and today.

Had a Cessna 421 heading south to north yesterday afternoon between Mojave and Inyokern. Tried to go underneath clouds in attempt to find smoother air. Was rolled upside done out of control. Recovered and landed at IYK. Inner wings skins severely deformed. Haven't yet examined spar. One pilot who has some knowledge thinks plane may be totaled.

Today to the north of IYK large multi-layered lenticular clouds with more vertical development than I've ever seen. Surface winds still very strong.

Probably best to avoid the entire Sierra Crest.
 
We were supposed to head down to the cabin for some business down the hill this week, and were going to load the dogs and stuff in our Tundra for its first long cross-country. Alas, the weather at our end has been unrelenting, with high winds and storms on about 36 hour centers. Sounds like the other end of the trip would be as bad - or worse! Today they are calling for 130 mph ridge gusts! Yup - those translate into wicked turbulence in the Owens Valley....

Good time to just hide in the shop and do some building.....
 
Not related, but scary.

uywf3IqzL3iazO-5D1n40vvemf3peaJ6jZOBl7cXYTS5GaufmFckzLGxy7U_ZWPAOO0Z4v9S4yKeUXKK9KsSSN3GgvvgSWKkSg3aZ8XRZ0ahYGXSAX6LY_3pJOyGT1rz8SygNaSfcjkw8zfGfFLX1Gixby-pWRRHIG-a0HuCxycb1EgNzDR58qU2KaeH-Qkp2zEPGAuWVd0Awlmu8pLICllfqvfRyl2yNQSco1Rd5sLJtO3i-coO47h2Yz5MHE-9Zhi3u7jGH_O6foUGgyjUcRXF5VGbSKc1_I5apTLhBWzbmyXhCv2KwHeuLrhZuG35IL00VqkljcuOLkcoWP1EcmlBQeKbG-sRuxVqiIwlmN2W03HSea5NVt6SOQh7zwwJ5o0UYwgtGG8gjO0Y5kqLjG_mysCzCSjIzZN4Hn_G_K0Z-NFV8MJ86sWQi-rWyjQspMUy4g-wJEzSiihuySqp6ZQ9d2JWfMmk5PuNmivHGCeY0aXz33L4JFpLqMlp_kQxikA9gkkZFdEpMHXxbH2DMRR3pp9b5q_R5L9S4KiM1g8diA-go-RUwcg77n2Hveejkx27-rcUwP4bSX-IGV5JWGxoBhzW9hnZYpMx7FKFn_T4StJdg1QA=w1085-h723-no
 
These lens shaped clouds are Alto-Cumulus Standing Lenticulars (ACSL) and vertical velocities in excess of 10,000 FPM have been reported. What can’t be seen are the “rollers” that persist miles downwind of the ridge line. Equally as violent.

IIRC, You can expect these to develop any time the winds aloft over the Sierras exceed 25 KTS,

I had my EEEEEE ticket ride in ‘72, on an otherwise clear day. 6.0 and -2.5 on the G-meter.
 
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You got ripped by a mountain wave rotor.
As Obi wan would say, "your lucky to be in one piece."

Some wild stories. Cant find in on quick web search, but I remember story of a P-51 doing wave research back in WWII, got ripped apart. Pilot was thrown out, free fell then hit the chute. Saw pieces of the plane getting pulled up INTO the wave cloud. Then pilot got sucked in to (still in the chute). Ended up landing in the desert 30 miles downwind. Survived.
 
flew through it last night on a MIA - SFO leg at FL320 constant waves from about dallas to the west side of the sierras. all altitudes sucked and was seeing 40 knot speed changes in level flight. auto thrust was going from full cruise to idle just to try to keep speed constant.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
 
Wow. We easily could have been reading this on Katherines Report. Im sure it is the years of training that saved you. Thanks for letting us know about the experience and I would love to see photos of the wing skin too.
 
That picture is just beautiful. At least there is some visual warning here that it might be bumpy.:)
Last week I was coming back from Lexington, KY in cruise at 6500' beneath a high broken layer, and about 20 minutes south I hit some severe turbulence in the RV10. No warning. Just BAM! Airplane was completely out of control, and I chopped the power to idle and rode it out for about 20 seconds, although it seemed a lot longer. Then it ended. I reported the severe turbulence and climbed to 8500'. Winds were showing 60-70 knots out of the West and was a direct crosswind, but only very light intermittent chop at times.

Vic
 
Hey Vic,
Curious of your approx position crossing the ridge. The last 3 or 4 commutes have included what I would call fully moderate turbulence (meaning I did not loose control of the craft) which was still a rough ride. It has been consistently between the ridge and Hickory KHKY as one would expect. The EFIS has shown winds at 40 to 60 kts depending on the day.
 
Returning from Osh on July 30, 2016 around noon we were flying the RV-8 south-west bound over Wyoming between Gillette and Rock Springs. The sky around us was crystal clear but way up ahead you could see very small clouds starting to form.

It went from super smooth to incredibly bumpy in an instant. It was difficult to read the instruments. Slowed it down and worked to keep the attitude as level as I could. After landing at Rock Springs I was able to see those clouds a little better. This is what I saw.

nvv79d.jpg


While the clouds we experienced were nothing close to the pictures Bill L shared they sure made big impression on us. Those little puffy clouds around the lenticulars were rolling. No fun.

Thanks for posting Pvalovich. I would like to near more about what its like flying around the Owens Valley and surrounding area before venture there.
 
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Hey Vic,
Curious of your approx position crossing the ridge. The last 3 or 4 commutes have included what I would call fully moderate turbulence (meaning I did not loose control of the craft) which was still a rough ride. It has been consistently between the ridge and Hickory KHKY as one would expect. The EFIS has shown winds at 40 to 60 kts depending on the day.


I wasn't quite to Hickory. I was still NW of London, quite a bit prior to the ridge. That's what surprised me. I had come that way a northbound a couple of hours earlier, and the winds were the same but the ride was silky smooth, even over the mountains at 5500'. I was wanting to stay low as I had just gotten over a cold a couple of weeks ago and didn't want any ear problems. As I approached the mountains on the Northbound trek I knew I wasn't over the recommended "50% higher" altitude, so I slowed down to Va as I approached the ridge. Never even had a bump.

Vic
 
Out here in the Sierras it is not uncommon to see ridge top gusts 140-170 MPH! two years ago in Feb, winds were clocked at 130 MPH on the ground! blew down my 5' chain link fence. This was a non tornado event!
 
flew through it last night on a MIA - SFO leg at FL320 constant waves from about dallas to the west side of the sierras. all altitudes sucked and was seeing 40 knot speed changes in level flight. auto thrust was going from full cruise to idle just to try to keep speed constant.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB

but I thought winds didn't affect airspeed :D
 
Throttle changes

but I thought winds didn't affect airspeed :D

During flight thru wave (which is what we are talking about here) the vertical speed is affected. For an airliner cruising at fixed alttitude, in a sever updraft the throttles will roll back to maintain airspeed and altitude. And in a downdraft will go full tilt to maintain altitude.
Waves can be dealt with safely if you know where the smooth air is and where the turbulance is and when not to go. I am really looking forward to getting my 9A to 25k in wave sometime when its done. That will be fun.
Maybe the 9 can become a motor-glider? Not that i havent thermal climbed a 152 and a 172 coming out of Santa Ynez, Ca and Big Bear before.

Vlad this a new challenge.
 
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Coming home from Loveland CO on Sunday I caught some good wave off the front range in my 9A, climbing through 16,000 over Denver I saw vertical rates in excess of 1500 fpm, normal climb rate for me at that point is only about 600-700.
 
Turbulence

Feb 9,2015, King Air 300 descending at Mammouth Lakes CA, extreme turbulence bent both wings.
 
reminds me of 10 years ago. diane and i were going home. we had been flying west under a cloud cover about where you would cross over lone pine. you could see the under the clouds and over the mountain into the valley with the sun shining under them in the evening. it was kind of pretty, just a little bumpy. all was ok until we fly over the white mountains into owens valley heading west. within 10 seconds we were totally out of control. literally looking at the valley floor one second and the bottom of the clouds the next while the plane was rolling from near inverted on one side to the same the other. it threw the luggage into the back of diagnose' seat and pushed her into her harness. she very calmly said" let's get out of here"( at the top of her lungs). somehow we turned around and as soon as it started it stopped when we cross east over the white mountains. we went WAY south out from under the clouds and when we got into the valley we saw that VERY same picture. stacked lenticulars 4-5 deep as far as you could north. glad we were our RV4.
 
flew through it last night on a MIA - SFO leg at FL320 constant waves from about dallas to the west side of the sierras. all altitudes sucked and was seeing 40 knot speed changes in level flight. auto thrust was going from full cruise to idle just to try to keep speed constant.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB

There are known areas around the country where mountain wave exist. My employer went to extreme lengths to avoid those areas by having Jeppesen plot known MW areas on our HI and LO altitude charts. They also included Company charted bypass routes that our dispatchers would file when MW was active. Unfortunately most carriers did not participate.
 
Soaring pilots (both hang glider and sailplane) LOVE the Owens! Yes it can be "Washing machine" air but that's what makes it attractive to us. Once you learn about mountain wave, thermals etc you can usually figure where to be flying to avoid the worst of the turbulence. Also, it never hurts to slow down. A nice gentle thermal at 60 kts in a sailplane can become a bone jarring upset at 160 kts in an RV.

-Marc

reminds me of 10 years ago. diane and i were going home. we had been flying west under a cloud cover about where you would cross over lone pine. you could see the under the clouds and over the mountain into the valley with the sun shining under them in the evening. it was kind of pretty, just a little bumpy. all was ok until we fly over the white mountains into owens valley heading west. within 10 seconds we were totally out of control. literally looking at the valley floor one second and the bottom of the clouds the next while the plane was rolling from near inverted on one side to the same the other. it threw the luggage into the back of diagnose' seat and pushed her into her harness. she very calmly said" let's get out of here"( at the top of her lungs). somehow we turned around and as soon as it started it stopped when we cross east over the white mountains. we went WAY south out from under the clouds and when we got into the valley we saw that VERY same picture. stacked lenticulars 4-5 deep as far as you could north. glad we were our RV4.
 
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Owens Valley Location?

This Owens Valley is very long, north and south, and just east of Yosemite??

Have I got it right?
 
Soaring pilots (both hang glider and sailplane) LOVE the Owens! Yes it can be "Washing machine" air but that's what makes it attractive to us. Once you learn about mountain wave, thermals etc you can usually figure where to be flying to avoid the worst of the turbulence. Also, it never hurts to slow down. A nice gentle thermal at 60 kts in a sailplane can become a bone jarring upset at 160 kts in an RV.

-Marc

Yes! And oh by the way, the actual wave flow is VERY SMOOTH. You will find smoothly varying lift and sink depending on where in the wave you are. It is a very laminar flow, which is why the lenticular clouds look so soft and smooth. It is the rotor, underneath the wave, that is really dangerous. Rotor clouds often look like twisted bread dough, and if you ever see a time-lapse, you will get an idea of what the 'washing machine' is about.

The earlier posted story about the inflight breakup that ejected the pilot occurred in a wood Pratt-Read glider, not a P-51.

Once you've gone soaring in and around wave, you learn to know where the rotor likely is, and avoid it. The easy way to avoid it is to be several thousand feet higher than the generating mountain ridge. There you will only have to contend with smooth flow, but it may be going up at 2000 ft/min or going down at 2000 ft/min. (those strengths are pretty rare, but half those are routinely common). And yes, that means if you are going to cross the Whites, you better be at 16000 to start with. Linger in the up-flow to climb for free, then dive forward and penetrate across the 'down' part of the wave to the next 'up' area. DO NOT try to climb in the 'down' part of the wave. The most dangerous thing you can do is descend below the wave, where you are likely to hit the rotor. If you must, go way downwind, find the sinking part of the wave, and descend there. You will get plenty of help! explore downwind a bit more to find lessening amounts of sink or neutral flow. There is no rotor under that part of the wave.
 
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Update

The beautiful Cessna 421 that was the subject for the start of this thread has been declared a total loss. Wing spars deformed.

Pilot (owner of a construction company flying into IYK for business) said he was at 8K on the east side of Walker pass below broken clouds about 10 miles south of IYK - well south of the higher mountains. Was suddenly violently rolled upside down. Did not overspeed. Said the initial roll is what caused the damage.

If you must travel the between Mojave and Bishop in such unsettled conditions (the valley seemed ok, but weather over the mountains was unsettled) recommend you stay east - away from the Sierra Crest.
 
The beautiful Cessna 421 that was the subject for the start of this thread has been declared a total loss. Wing spars deformed.

Pilot (owner of a construction company flying into IYK for business) said he was at 8K on the east side of Walker pass below broken clouds about 10 miles south of IYK - well south of the higher mountains. Was suddenly violently rolled upside down. Did not overspeed. Said the initial roll is what caused the damage.

If you must travel the between Mojave and Bishop in such unsettled conditions (the valley seemed ok, but weather over the mountains was unsettled) recommend you stay east - away from the Sierra Crest.


Even in thermal conditions the ridge just to the east of Walker Pass is known to the glider pilots as "Boomer ridge" and is often the start of the strong thermals after making your way north over the Mojave desert.

Prevailing westerly winds and thermals from the SE ridge facing the early afternoon sun combine for lots of lift.
 
Today in SoCal

I just finished reading this thread then got in my car to go work on my plane at CCB. Noticed these guys sitting over the mountains just north of CCB. Not as spectacular as a few weeks ago but after reading this bunch of posts I kook at them a little differently. Also thinking getting a glider rating might be helpful in reading/understanding the clouds better.
2rm3ytg.jpg
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Yup

When i used to run every morning at sunrise, i would see these over the same mountains nearly every morning in the winter. They would dissipate by 8:00am.
 
I just drove rom Carson City to Big Bear today (left teh RV-8 here a couple of weeks ago due to weather, and had gusty winds and Standing Lennies all the way down 395. Wouldn't have wanted to be in the air, based on the surface gusts that were blowing the old Honda around!
 
We flew up from Ramona to Harris Ranch for lunch today. Very smooth flight th e whole way. Went direct once we cleared the corner of Camp Pendelton's Restricted airspace. Up to 10,500 over LAX Class Bravo. Only a bit of updraft/downdraft over the ridges around the Grapevine. Same story on the way back. We detoured to Shafter for some fuel, then into Cable for a fill up. Gas at Cable on the first weekend of the month is discounted -- $3.74 a gallon, which is just about as cheap as you can find it in California. We saw all of the lenticular clouds, but they were way above us and didn't give us any problems down between 7,500' and 10,500'.

Flight tracks over on the APRS page...
 
Yeah, Bruce, we're spoiled at Cable. 100LL was only $3.40/gal. a few months ago. I'm glad your flight was smooth and uneventful!
 
How do RV's survive Turbulence ?
i am new to this forum , and the only RV i have flown so far is Vlad's , i have about 70 flying hours with him , went to france and back with him in his RV9A ,
i remember , when i started flying with Vlad , i was telling a friend of mine who is also a pilot , about how nice , fast and smooth the RV is , the first thing he said is : " They desintegrate in the sky " that thought is always in the back of my head , but about a month ago or so , myself and Vlad flew to Bar Harbor ME , we turned back half way , maybe a few miles north west of boston , because of extreme turbulence and wind , the temperature was -35 to -40C @ 9000Ft
that was probably the most turbulence i have seen in my entire flying life !
the RV9 made it safe and sound , and Vlad was a real Champion handling the situation .
how strong is the Airframe ? Wings ? in comparison to a Piper cherokee or a C172?
Thanks for your answers ,
 
Sibirsky I am glad you asked. Now you know what moderate chop in RV is. Wait till AZ/NV/NM guys speak. I flew there once in the afternoon and I wasn't a champion. Ask Adil if you don't believe me :D
 
How do RV's survive Turbulence ?
i am new to this forum , and the only RV i have flown so far is Vlad's , i have about 70 flying hours with him , went to france and back with him in his RV9A ,
i remember , when i started flying with Vlad , i was telling a friend of mine who is also a pilot , about how nice , fast and smooth the RV is , the first thing he said is : " They desintegrate in the sky " that thought is always in the back of my head , but about a month ago or so , myself and Vlad flew to Bar Harbor ME , we turned back half way , maybe a few miles north west of boston , because of extreme turbulence and wind , the temperature was -35 to -40C @ 9000Ft
that was probably the most turbulence i have seen in my entire flying life !
the RV9 made it safe and sound , and Vlad was a real Champion handling the situation .
how strong is the Airframe ? Wings ? in comparison to a Piper cherokee or a C172?
Thanks for your answers ,

In comparison with a Cherokee or C-172? The aerobatic RV's are stressed to 6 G's with a safety factor of 1.5. At least twice what those spam cans are designed to take. And no, RV's are not disintegrating in turbulence. There have been a very small number of inflight breakups, and all that I can recall have been due to piloting.
 
In comparison with a Cherokee or C-172? The aerobatic RV's are stressed to 6 G's with a safety factor of 1.5. At least twice what those spam cans are designed to take. And no, RV's are not disintegrating in turbulence. There have been a very small number of inflight breakups, and all that I can recall have been due to piloting.

Thank you for the clarifications , I was asking in comparison to a regular RV not the acrobatic models , the more I fly with Vlad , the more I trust the RV ,
I just wanted to make sure before I Buy one 😊
 
Thank you for the clarifications , I was asking in comparison to a regular RV not the acrobatic models , the more I fly with Vlad , the more I trust the RV ,
I just wanted to make sure before I Buy one ��

In some cases, there isn't an "aerobatic" model...only a weight restriction to be in the aerobatic limits envelope.

E.g., in the 7, it's in the utility category above 1600 pounds. It is in the aerobatic category below 1600 pounds and with a slightly reduced aft CG limit.

Others can comment on different models.

ETA: Here is the info from Van's:

The RV-3B, RV-4, RV-7/7A, RV-8/8A and RV-14/14A have been designed for the operational stress limits of the aerobatic category
(+6.0/-3.0 G) at and below their aerobatic gross weights. The operational stress limits for these aircraft between their aerobatic gross weights and their maximum design gross weights are utility category (+4.4/-1.75 G). The RV-9/9A, RV-10 and RV-12 are not designed for aerobatic flight.

The design operational stress limit for the RV-9/9A is utility category (+4.4/-1.75 G) at less than 1600 pound gross weight and is standard category (+3.8/-1.5 G) between 1600 pounds and the aircraft’s design gross weight. The design operational stress limit for the RV-10 is standard category (+3.8/-1.5 G).
Check the info that is available on each model at vansaircraft.com.

As a side note, it's disheartening that a pilot would make such an uninformed assertion as your friend who thinks that RVs are coming apart in mid-air.
 
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True story

My dad is a retired Navy/TWA pilot. My dad was flying a B727 into Denver, and just as they started the descent my dad was pointing out the lenticular clouds out in the distance and how they are dangerous. As they approached the airport, keeping clear of the lenticular cloud, they hit turbulence that put the 727 into a vertical climb. Never having trained for this in the sims, my dad elected to do a Hammer Head with it. As the aircraft slowed down near the top of the maneuver, full left rudder was applied, and the plane went over nicely. From the altitude gained until the aircraft was recovered was 17,000 feet. No damage to the aircraft, it was reported some passengers peed themselves.
 
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