Buying on pricepoint

I just replied to a post on rivet sets, and Martin going out of business. We are seeing this with too many US vendors and I thought it is a good opportunity to mention that the consumer is the one who decides if they will have access to US made, quality products, or if we will all be forced into buying foreign sourced junk. When price is all that drives a purchase, we are effectively forcing a single source model where US manufacturers fold, and your cash gets bundled up and sent to China. The purchaser and future purchasers are then using an inferior tool and is frustrated that they can't find anything better. We have seen it happen with Craftsman over the last 50 years, and Snap-On in the last 10.

I sell tools, it puts food on my table and my family's only source of income, so yes I am biased. We started out 23 years ago because we had three of every tool. Trying to find a better, more enjoyable way to get a job done should not be that hard (or as expensive as buying three of everything). We found the best of everything and made a catalog. So many of those original tools no longer exist. Many never did and we started manufacturing them. We operate in a tiny market, where there is a thin line between make and break. A great deal of time is spent when a supplier goes under and a new one must be located. Finding that US (or German, Swiss, Israel, UK...) supplier is getting harder and harder. SnapOn has bought several our suppliers and while they have that 'quality' name, they have been cheapening up tools (read sourcing parts) to the point that I feel they are far inferior, Sioux being a prime example, but not the only one under their umbrella.

Perhaps we can re-frame purchasing decisions to think that that extra 30% we pay to get a US made product is a charitable donation to support jobs of US workers, and the 'prize' that we get for making that donation is a much upgraded product and a healthier long term economy.

Thanks for listening,
Mike

[thread moved to General Discussion for greater exposure; S. Buchanan]

The reality is that we all build/buy/fly amateur-built aircraft because they (and we) are cheap. If we had unlimited resources, we'd be flying everything from Swifts to Mustangs.

Don't justify your prices with "we can't make them cheaper in the US". That's just sounding a death rattle that you can hear at any North American manufacturer right now. Justify your prices with excellent value (by continually sourcing vendors that can supply high quality at a lower price - and yes, that might mean going overseas), fast service, and support (by standing behind the tools you make - which you already do).

"Made in USA" is not the marketing plus that it used to be. Frequently that label is now applied to products made at a company that is cut back to the bone just to survive, and the quality is barely good enough to sell.

Or it simply means it's made in USA, Japan.

Snowflake said:

The reality is that we all build/buy/fly amateur-built aircraft because they (and we) are cheap. If we had unlimited resources, we'd be flying everything from Swifts to Mustangs.

Don't justify your prices with "we can't make them cheaper in the US". That's just sounding a death rattle that you can hear at any North American manufacturer right now. Justify your prices with excellent value (by continually sourcing vendors that can supply high quality at a lower price - and yes, that might mean going overseas), fast service, and support (by standing behind the tools you make - which you already do).

"Made in USA" is not the marketing plus that it used to be. Frequently that label is now applied to products made at a company that is cut back to the bone just to survive, and the quality is barely good enough to sell.

Or it simply means it's made in USA, Japan.

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This seems to be an over-the-top harsh response. Have you walked in the shoes of a (North) American small business owner who has tried for decades to provide the best quality/service at a reasonable price? Owning this type of business is not a path to riches, more likely a way to make a living from one's passion - and that passion and the desire of the OP to provide the best quality deserves respect. I'm not necessarily in agreement that foreign-sourced items are poor quality, but there is a correlation temporally.

I have seen a decline in quality in almost everything I buy - shoes, appliances, tools, household fixtures - that is not consistently commensurate with price. Value is one thing, quality another - but buying quality and being willing to pay a premium price has always paid off in my experience. I bought my RV not because it's the cheapest but because it's the best in it's class and is a great combination of both quality and value. And if/when I build/buy another airplane RV's are at the top of my list for the same reasons.

I agree that made in the US doesn't mean what it used to. Even US made products have seen a reduction in quality due to a need to compete. The real challenge is finding a product made to a specific quality point. This used to be a simple matter of picking a quality brand, but that simply doesn't work anymore. Too many companies have acquired brands and then reduce the quality point. This works successfully for these companies, as Americans are conditioned to equate brand with quality; generally speaking. When a company spends many decades producing quality products, that association will last for quite some time and allow the new owner to capitalize on it while delivering a lesser product.

Without getting into a political diatribe, the real issue here is that US-based product companies at the smaller end of the size scale simply cannot compete in a global economy due to the regulations imposed upon them by our government(s). This is why service based companies show all of the growth. Unfortunately there really is no good answer. We either relax the constraints, (environmental, taxes, worker rights, etc., etc.) or we limit/tax imports. I think we have successfully proven that you can't have both.

Larry

I buy quality tools most of the time (Craftsman, MAC, Snap-On - in that order) but do go cheap for things I will seldom use, if the tool gets the job done.

Craftsman tools are probably made in China but they still have a lifetime warranty. If money were no object, I would have Snap-On everything. Unfortunately, that is not the case and will not be for anyone that wants to build their own airplane. As mentioned above, we are all on a budget and do what we can with what we have.

People that can afford to burn money do not build their own airplanes.

short sighted economics

If we are the least bit patriotic/loyal to our families, neighbors, communities and country, (and why shouldnt we be), we should look for that product made at home even if it costs significantly more (if you can even find it) because otherwise you will NOT have a choice in the future.

The foreigners are cheating to keep prices low enough to export and still make a profit.

Example, If your child was making and selling cookies but they cost double what you could buy elsewhere, would you tell him/her, "you need to lower your price or I will not buy?" Isn't there already additional "value" buy buying local? Also, any profit your child makes from you is staying in your household. This is money that you would have to cough up anyway if there was ever a short fall. Not to mention your child is working, making a buck, learning to be independant and doing something useful with their time. If all the meaningful jobs go overseas, will your kids move to China to "bake the cookies"? Or will they stay here, watching TV (or continue to be entertained in some other short sighted way), as you grumble "I miss the good-ole-days" and munch on half price cookies made with unknown (to you) ingredients, unknown facilities/working conditions, unacceptable quality control standard etc etc.

Buy local or expect your children to be unemployed or have to move away to far off places for meaningful work. It's that simple.

Bevan

To expand on Snowflake's comments...

More often than not, the cuts US companies make are *not* to 'just survive', but are to *maximize profits*, with a 'screw the consumer' attitude. I strongly doubt that Snap-on is cheapening their tools because they're just trying to survive, and Craftsman (Sears) likely didn't survive *because* they cheapened their tools.

Mike,

While I appreciate what you and your company have done for homebuilders, I have to disagree with the way you framed your statements, saying that USA made products are good and foreign products are junk. That's just plain false, because it obviously isn't universally true (or even frequently true, these days).

While there are still issues with Chinese products, they are improving rapidly, much like Japanese products coming to the USA back in the 1950's & 60's (days that I clearly remember). By the 1980's, buying a US-built car was just stupid, when you could buy Japanese for less money (even with severe import tariffs) and have a car that was much more reliable and lasted twice as long. Today, wages/benefits in many Pacific rim countries rival US wages, yet quality is superior. Optics, electronics, autos, the internet, health care, even basic science are typically higher quality when sourced from foreign markets these days.

So if paying an extra 30% gets me needed higher quality, I'll pay it. But if all it gets me is 30% higher cost, then no thank you. Why reward poor performance?

Cleaveland Aircraft Tools has been a huge support to the RV building community and we need to support them in return. I bought a Cleaveland main squeeze and it is probably the most valuable tool I had during my RV-8 build. The tool had a minor issue and Mike took an hour out of his busy day at Osh to rebuild it for me, now that is what I call service. How about all the wonderful interiors DJ has made for the RV community?

Matt, I can certainly appreciate your position. There is no easy answer, lack consumption drives everything.

If I make $100 and buy a Snap-On tool for $40, by the time all the sticky fingers get to what I earned and what SO earned, I get a tool that cost SO $20 to make (they have a 50% gross margin and 35% federal tax rate), we paid $60 to various taxes, and I have $10 left. So what did the $60 buy?

I will keep voting until it makes a difference. Maybe.

rv7charlie said:

-snip-
I have to disagree with the way you framed your statements, saying that USA made products are good and foreign products are junk. That's just plain false, because it obviously isn't universally true (or even frequently true, these days).

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Agreed. I had specific examples in mind that I didn't get into. Suffice it to say that just because any two things look alike it doesn't mean they are the same quality. Each of these examples were US vs. China (mainland). But I certainly agree that the Eastern quality is growing fast, and concede that due to a variety of reasons some of the US quality has diminished.

The quality was one side of my argument, the 'buy local' economics was another side.

Many good points from all, glad to have the discussion going.

clevtool said:

Perhaps we can re-frame purchasing decisions to think that that extra 30% we pay to get a US made product is a charitable donation to support jobs of US workers, and the 'prize' that we get for making that donation is a much upgraded product and a healthier long term economy.

Click to expand...

That's going to be a hard sell for any consumer product. What you're seeing with the economy globalization is everyone to stay competitive is having to constantly change and adapt. Consumers have more choices than even on how to spend their money. 25 years ago you wanted some tools you went down to your local hardware store or grabbed a Sears catalog. Not the case anymore, you're inundated with choices be it local owned shops, big box retailers or the many eCommerce sites, Cleaveland tools included.

I wouldn't consider my purchase from Cleaveland Tools local, unless by local you mean benefiting a company in the United States. I also didn't consider price as my number 1 determining factor when buying said tools. For me customer service was #1. Mike and Anette taking the time to work with me and customize my order was important. Also quality was a main concern so I wanted to use tools that people who have build airplanes have used. Also their website looked better than the other suggested Vendor... That might be a silly reason but it was a reason. Now I will admit there's some things that I still pick up from discount vendors that source their tools from overseas... but that's mainly because I'm not overly concerned with the quality and just need some basic level of functionality.. ie buckets, nitrate gloves, clamps, ect.

A lot of times people fail to see both sides of the story. If I spend an extra 30% on something SOLELY because it was made in the USA, that's less $ that I have in my very own American pocket, to spend on other things, maybe even right here in my community. I have as much respect for the hard working American small business owner as the next person, but as a blue-collar worker myself, I don't feel the need to donate my hard earned money to them simply for a warm fuzzy feeling.

Where American companies can provide the value-add is in support and service, and that is why I am a customer of Cleaveland, and many other VAF advertisers. I have had nothing but good experiences, and am sure I will make many more purchases from these companies. But there are also times when I need a simple tool for one job only, and won't think twice about buying a harbor freight cheapie. And the local, American employees of my local harbor freight have a job because others think the same way.

There is room for competition, and room for American companies to distinguish themselves.

Chris

mturnerb said:

This seems to be an over-the-top harsh response. Have you walked in the shoes of a (North) American small business owner who has tried for decades to provide the best quality/service at a reasonable price?

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My post wasn't intended to be harsh... Just honest. I am glad that it's opened a discussion... Lots of good points have been made.

My last three jobs were all for technology companies that used a mix of local and offshore manufacturing. One builds high-volume electronics for the consumer market. Another builds specialized, low volume digital cameras for medical and scientific research.

Through it all, I've heard arguments for and against offshore manufacturing, and i've seen first hand how a transition from North American to offshore manufacturing can work. All I can say is that I've seen the same mix of good and bad products come from both North American *and* offshore suppliers.

It's not fair, or realistic, to just make a blanket statement that you should *always* buy local. If that were true, i'd be flying a Murphy Rebel, designed and built less than 20 miles from me. I don't know what kind of car i'd be driving...

IMHO the American people are digging their own graves. They do not want to work unless they get big bucks. The folks they are competing with overseas will work for very little because they have to do whatever they can to put money in their pockets.
I always go back to the theory that the cheap price does not mean much if the product is cheap.
I do not want to buy a tool that will work until my project is done. I want a tool that will work until my great grand son's project is done. Maybe longer.

Bevan said:

The foreigners are cheating to keep prices low enough to export and still make a profit.Bevan

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The U.S. "cheats" too. Tax breaks, low interest rates, incentives to move to a state or city, and we have tariffs on imports too, sometimes high tariffs. Right now the strong dollar gives us more buying power so we import a lot.

When I was young and struggling I bought the cheapest I could because that was all I could do. About age 50 I started pulling out ahead and started buying somewhat on price, somewhat on quality, somewhat on service, and probably on some other criteria too.

I also agree a lot with Yellowjackets RV9.

In the last several years I have made a conscious effort to read the box or label to find out where the product was manufactured and opt for the USA manufactured product even though the price may even be double. Some of our grocery items are now coming from China. I can buy a bottle of apple juice for the grand kids from China for .99 cents, or Organic from USA for $2.49. I am by no means wealthy but I opt for the USA products any day.

Quality/Price=Value. If quality is average and price is low then overall value is higher than if quality is average and price is high. The consumer decides how much value he needs then decides how much he is willing to pay. If it wasn't this way Gulfstream, Rolex, Ferrari, Bentley, etc could never stay in business even though their prices are very high.

This is the global economy where the number of competitors is much higher. And it is only going to get more competitive as time goes on.

Service

Let's face it, some foreign tools are so inexpensive you can throw them away and buy 3 more before you've spent what the US manufactured version will cost you. When making the original purchase the difference in quality is hard to judge, the difference in service is not. I will try and purchase products from local venders whenever I can in hope of getting superior service, and I will place a value on that service. When my $10 dimple die breaks I'm out of luck; when my $30 Cleaveland Tool dimple die breaks I know they'll send me a new one at no charge. In my opinion the only way to justify higher price to the consumer is to provide that which the cut-rate outfit cannot, and that's GREAT customer service - but that comes with a price.

Speaking in general terms and not specific to Cleveland tools, the ? buying US made? argument is getting harder and harder to sell since many of those companies don?t help themselves. Judging based on the some of the CEO and executives compensation, it is getting harder for me to pay the extra 30% just to support ?buying US made?

This is a difficult topic to throw a blanket over and make generic observations. I have worked as a design engineer for 30+ years and I have watched production move out of the US over that time. I wish we made more items here and at times I have had to fight to keep the production here in the US. The reality is that companies do have competition and they have to do what it takes to be competitive. We in the US need to use our skills to keep that edge. Gone are the days when you can say products from China are poorly made. There are many high quality manufacturers in China and other Asian countries. I still believe if you make a good product people will buy it even if it is "sljghtly" more expensive. We all look for value in our purchases. If you plan to use an item infrequently a cheap product may be a value. If you use it all the time an expensive tool is a value. The mistake we make in the US is trying to sell our products based on cost and not based upon value.

I think you will find the majority of builders around the world buy their tools from 3 of 4 major suppliers in the US. I'm an Aussie so I don't care if I buy Chinese or USA product. I just want a quality product, backed by quality support.

Its interesting to hear a US vendor complaining, because from my perspective it is actually the US suppliers who have instigated the problem by selling the stuff. I wouldn't buy any product if you didn't stock it. You stock it because you want the edge on your competitors and can make more margin.

As a case in point, my 10 year old Sioux drill is much better than the cheap yellow imports one of your competitors sold be at Oshkosh two years ago. At the time I was told Sioux was no good anymore. I doubt it. I suspect someone figured out there was more money in selling imports.

Just like in Australia, the populous didn't start speaking Chinese and import containers of this stuff on their own. Chinese don't have aircraft in their garages. If they are making aircraft tools, one of you probably provided them with a market. The truth is the consumer really isn't to blame.

This thread appears to me to be more political than RV-related. Although, at least so far, the discourse has been polite!

Seems outta place on VAF to me.

One man's opinion.......

PCHunt said:

This thread appears to me to be more political than RV-related. Although, at least so far, the discourse has been polite!

Seems outta place on VAF to me.

One man's opinion.......

Click to expand...

Pete, I agree with your observation. Good points have been made but given our history, this thread will continue to deviate from RV stuff.

Thread closed.