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  #1  
Old 06-14-2016, 05:38 PM
Weasel's Avatar
Weasel Weasel is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Collins, MS
Posts: 761
Default Lycoming to ECI major change?

If a currently certificated expermental aircraft has a Lycoming engine and then is replaced with a different manufacturer engine of the same type. Is it considered a Major change, Minor change, or a replacement.

For example replacing a Lycoming parellel valve vertical sump engine with a Contenental Motors San Antonio (Titan) engine which is built with parts that are PMA replacemens for the Lycoming.
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  #2  
Old 06-14-2016, 08:02 PM
longline longline is offline
 
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Location: silverdale, WA
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Default Weasel

According to my FSDO the engine is the dataplate. You can build an entire engine with PMA/FAA approved parts from another vendor and still have an engine that meets the type certificate for installation on a type certified product (airplane). I see no reason to think that installing an engine made up of PMA/FAA parts would be a Major Alteration.

In addition, other than being prudent during your initial operation, I do not think that you would need to take the aircraft out of phase 2 operations. This is simply maintenance, though of a rather far reaching kind.

I am not a DAR, however. Mel, what say you?
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  #3  
Old 06-14-2016, 09:03 PM
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Default Why not Phase 1?

Whether it is classified "major" or not, I would want to stay close to home and solo for 5 hours anyway with a new engine installation. Break it in, monitor cooling and fuel/oil use, check periodically for leaks, etc. Build faith in it.
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  #4  
Old 06-15-2016, 05:31 AM
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Weasel Weasel is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by longline View Post
According to my FSDO the engine is the dataplate. You can build an entire engine with PMA/FAA approved parts from another vendor and still have an engine that meets the type certificate for installation on a type certified product (airplane). I see no reason to think that installing an engine made up of PMA/FAA parts would be a Major Alteration.

In addition, other than being prudent during your initial operation, I do not think that you would need to take the aircraft out of phase 2 operations. This is simply maintenance, though of a rather far reaching kind.

I am not a DAR, however. Mel, what say you?
Your explanation is exactly the way I would understand it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KatieB View Post
Whether it is classified "major" or not, I would want to stay close to home and solo.
Katie I would plan on spending a lot maybe even more than 5 hrs checking, break-in, etc but I don't want the restrictions and hassle to through the FAA who clearly at my local FISDO would not want the bother. On a side note. I converted an airplane one time from a 2 cylinder 2 cycle 70 HP liquid cooled engine and a ground adjustable composite propeller to a VW conversion 4 cylinder 4 cycle 85 HP air cooled engine with a fixed pitch wood propeller.

I explained all this in full detail to the Local FISDO. There response was "I would not call that a Major change. We call a major change when someone changes from a reciprocating engine to turbine or fixed pitch to constant speed. You should just enter the changes in the log book as a minor change or alteration and go fly" Now honestly I spent many many hrs flying very close to the airport and checking on the engine and installation a lot closer than the requirements would have been for a phase I test. I got the feeling I was wasting there time. Btw I printed there response in writing and stapled it into the log book.


Moderator: sorry guys ....I somehow got the same question going in two separate threads. You can combine them if necessary
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  #5  
Old 06-15-2016, 05:44 AM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
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Default

A different manufacturer does not matter. Sounds like you did a "replacement", not a change. As already stated, flight test close to home would be prudent, but not phase I.
If you made a significant changed to W&B, changed prop to another model, etc. then it might be a good idea to return to phase I.
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  #6  
Old 06-15-2016, 09:25 AM
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KatieB KatieB is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasel View Post
Katie I would plan on spending a lot maybe even more than 5 hrs checking, break-in, etc but I don't want the restrictions and hassle to through the FAA who clearly at my local FISDO would not want the bother.
Good. I just had to mention that because you'd be amazed how many customers we've had that don't think anything of taking a new airplane or newly rebuilt engine and blasting off over the mountains or whatever just because "it's new, what can go wrong."
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  #7  
Old 06-17-2016, 10:55 AM
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Jesse Jesse is offline
 
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Default

I think the main issue would be if you went to a different compression for more power. If the power is the same and you are still FP or CS and still Carb'ed or Injected, then it's a replacement.
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  #8  
Old 06-17-2016, 03:15 PM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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Default

When I changed out my O-290 for the O-360 it required a five hour Phase I. Switching like for like should include a test period but a formal five hour Phase I isn't required. Although, as mentioned above, it is a good idea.

With new engines, if they make it past 10 hours, they should make it to TBO. In other words, watch out for infant mortality.
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