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Realistic costs for RV10

Azpilot

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Hello, All,

Long time listener, first time caller. I’m currently driving (well….not for the last year) a 1977 Piper Turbo Arrow 3. After an engine casualty last year (landed without incident), she’s gone through an overhaul and a fairly major upgrade cycle. I never thought I’d own something so nice, and am even more surprised at the run-up in prices for the certified market.

As I look at RVs, the 10 keeps coming back as a contender for 4 place and decent performance, without the headache of certified. I’ve been quite involved in my current upgrade cycle, and have realized I’m quite capable of doing a lot of the work on a plane.

As a view from 10K feet, what’s the party line for realistic costs to build a RV10 across say, 3-5 years?

Many thanks ahead of time, and apologies if this already exists in a resource or anthology somewhere. I’ve a fair bit of Piper knowledge, and a correspondingly small amount of RV knowledge.
 
Ten years ago my all in cost for a slow build RV-10 was ~$153K. This included a full, dual screen IFR panel, new engine and prop from Van’s, simple interior and $3K to cover the PPG urethane base/clear coat material to paint it myself.

The new RV-10 slow build will follow along the same lines, but I suspect I’ll end up closer to $200K.

Carl
 
If mine ever gets out of the paint shop, I'll have about $150K in it. New prop, Barrett rebuild, single screen G3X, IFR equipped. That's including a QB fuse.

If I was pricing one today, I'd add up all the kit costs (including the FWF kit), the engine, prop, $30k or more for avionics, anywhere from $1,500 up for the interior, $5K for misc stuff, and whatever you think it'll cost to paint it. Paint costs can go from $2-3K for DIY to $30K for top-end professional.

And then add in whatever options you want/need (overhead console, different tires/wheels/brakes, air conditioning, dual alternators, dual batteries, yada, yada, yada). It can add up if you've gotta have all of it.
 
Ball Park

I think a well equipped VFR RV-10 can easily come in between 160K and 200K.
IFR equipped, as much more as you think you need to spend on avionics.
That said, your assessment of the 10 is grossly misrepresented in your post.
the 10 keeps coming back as a contender for 4 place and decent performance,
.
Performance is outstanding and above anything else in a price range of airplanes that cost twice as as much.;)
 
Unless you love to build, consider buying a flying plane. For 1/3 the cost of a cirrus, you can outperform it in almost every respect. I have seen -10’s advertised from the low 200’s to mid 300’s. While a lot of money, you will not save a ton of money building your own. I bought mine and am very impressed with the folks who dedicate the time to build one.
 
My guess is that the all-in plane/mile cost of operating an RV-10 over several years would end up about half of the plane/mile operating cost of a Turbo Arrow.
 
Currently in the midst of building a 10. I’m trying to keep mine under 250k and it’s going to be tight. Figure out 60k for a new IO-540 with SDS fuel injection and that was before their huge July price increase, 52k for all the Garmin goodies, 25k for paint, the kit costs, shipping costs have gone insane, interior finishing, tools to build it, O2 system......and the list goes on.

Then you lurk on here for a while and see other builders blogs and then you want Zip tips, Berringer brakes, AC and more bling. It’s really like building a house. You get to choose the options and they = money.

In the end it’s your decision. If done right and built well it will be reflected in the price you go to sell it some day.

Cheers,

Keith
 
If you want something equipped and with the fit/finish of something certified plan on $250k. 3-5 years is doable. I did mine in 4.5 and it was slow build, and I have a full time job as well. Knowing what I know now, I’d definitely go the quick build route. Would have probably saved me a year.

If you want something more bare bones, I think you could easily build something for under $200k. My thought was if you’re spending that much money, may as well do it right.
 
No, it would definitely have to be at or beyond the level of what I have today. I’ve gone from steam gauges and dual KX-155s / old Garmin GPS (155XL), to dual G5s, a 650, SL30, and full digital engine monitoring. As I’ve paddled through some of the morass of the Garmin walled garden for certified (and am about to file for a field approval on some AeroRocker switches), it gives me appreciation for being able to have more flexibility in what you mount.

When I was looking for circuit exemplars on wiring my switches, I ran across a builder who had them controlling his Vertical Power system. Things have come a long way since 1977.
 
Actual costs breakdown

Jason,

Here is a breakdown of my actual cost to build my RV-10. I kept meticulous financial records of the build and know EXACTLY how much it costs me. I didn't just track "the big stuff" (kits, engine, avionics,...) but also ALL the little stuff! That includes every piece of sandpaper, every tool, every oz of epoxy and primer, etc... If I bought anything that was needed for the build, it was tracked. It includes all the Aircraft Spruce shipping charges and all the runs to the aviation department at Home Depot.

As you can see, my budget was $214,500. My actual costs was $249,737. I did add many extras (Aerosport interior, custom seats, high end paint shop, etc...) but not as many extras as others (no ziptips, no ShowPlanes cowl, A/C, etc...) I am not frugal and tended to buy what I need when I need it. But I also didn't feel I went overboard with all one can do to a RV-10. A frugal person could probably do it cheaper than me (rebuilt or used engine, one screen VS two, no interior panels or overhead, etc...) but I do think this is a realistic number to plan on spending.

It took me 4 years (to the day) to complete my RV-10 (from 1st rivet to day I picked up plane from paint shop). I did slow build fuse and quick build wings. If doing it over, I'd do quick build fuse too. It added about 1 year. BTW, I am retired, so had lots of time on my hands.

Here's a video of my "finished project" to give you some idea of what this amount of money can get you...

https://youtu.be/DT0xSpBLDkU
 

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Randy,

Thank you or the detailed information, and what a beautiful bird. I watched a few of your videos, including your in-flight situation. -yikes-

Also, thanks to all for the outpouring of response. I’ve lurked here, unregistered, for a few years. I tended to find that if I needed something avionics-related thst was out of the box in the certified world (like the idea that a 155XL or a KX155 could indeed be interfaced to a G5…when Garmin decides to allow it), I found the answer over here. Glad I finally registered.
 
Time

Having just finished building a -10, I’ve found this discussion interesting. If one is evaluating the cost to construct a -10, then build time is pertinent if you’re considering quick versus slow build. Similar to hiring help to construct. I chose the slow build route, just as I had with previous projects. After reading the comments, I went back and added up the hours it took me to get the wings and fuse to the quick build stage. Keep in mind my definition of an hour building may not be the same as another’s. In my case, it took me 354 hours to build the wings and 248 hours to build the fuse. I worked a bit more diligently building the fuse. I averaged about 16 hours a week. Using those numbers, it took me approximately 7.5 to 8 months to get everything to the quick build stage. A 12 month estimate certainly seems reasonable. Now you just have to decide if the additional cost of a quick build is worth the time saved.
 
the other important question is...

Do you want to build an aircraft like a RV-10 or do you want to have an aircraft like an RV-10?

please don't get me wrong, i do not try to be the smarta** here.

i built an -8 (QuickBuild), it took me more money than expected and more time than expected. It was quite a journey with ups and downs and more than once i was ready to sell it as a unfinished project.
But i succeeded because i wanted to build my aircraft in the first place.

Of course, by now i enjoy every second of it.

What i took out of it?
Building your own aircraft is neither the fastest, cheapest, easiest nor the funniest way to go, but solely the most rewarding at the very end.
If you want to have a aircraft with he given performance numbers, buy one and safe yourself a lot of hassle and frustration.
If you want to build such an aircraft, and you are ready for all that comes with it, start building immediately, don't waste any time.

As long as you have the Turbo Arrow, keep it and order a RV-10 empennage kit. Start building and find out yourself whether you are ready for a 200K$ project or not.

just my 2 cents worth of thinking.......
 
There is also the issue of "want" vs. "need". You have mentioned (I believe) twice that you're using an SL30 with two G5 and a GTN650 in your Arrow. Since you're familiar with that setup now, you know what it is capable of. You will see (and drool over) examples of RV-10's that have triple 10" touch screens and multiple GTN750's. Is one level of avionics superior to the other? If you "want" wall to wall glass screens, go for it, but the airplane certainly does not "need" to be outfitted that way. My -7 has dual 10" G3X's, which are amazing to fly behind, but do sometimes feel like overkill.

But the nice thing is it is bespoke, you can build what you want, spend what you want, upgrade if you want. Some things really shouldn't be purchased until you're ready (avionics get out of warranty/discontinued/out of favor), other things can/will dramatically increase in price while you're getting to that point (engines, freight charges :eek:).


The real question is if you're into building; it's just as much of an experience as flying itself, but it requires commitment and patience, and more than ever these days it requires time. At the time I placed the -10 fuselage order, the wait was officially 10 months, plus 10 weeks give or take for crating/shipping. Then we'll have to build it. Even getting a quickbuild will require work on your part. If you want an RV-10 and aren't willing to wait on it, $250K+ is more than a reasonable price to pay for a flying aircraft that will still reap the majority of the benefits of experimental aviation.
 
Besides the time it takes to build, there's a reasonably significant space required. And as you complete portions, then you need storage space. Neither of these are show-stoppers, but just another facet to consider.

Dave
 
Building has an appeal. I’ve been intimately involved in the upgrade cycle for my current plane, and the scope has far exceeded what it should have. To clarify, it hasn’t been checkbook-therapy…it’s been me doing the work. This is the biggest thing (in tandem with encountering the frustrating limitations of the certified world) that has me thinking of building.

That said, time, space, and excess funds elude me at present. I’ve got a number of working years ahead, I’m 35 minutes from my airport, and I don’t present have a hangar (storage at my home field is a hot mess). I’d considered the approach suggested (start with an empennage kit) and perhaps that is indeed a reasonable starting point.
 
Still working on mine - first flight probably in March or April.

With a BRS parachute, zip tips, Thunderbolt IO-540, full glass panel (3x G3 and a G5), I'm estimating mine will come in at $250k-275, not including tools and consumables.

Take out the BRS and build the panel around a single pilot, find a rebuilt engine, etc - probably could do it around $225k.
 
With the rise in prices budgeting 250-275k for a nice IFR build seems appropriate. Touching 300 shortly is not out of the realm of possibility.
 
It dawn on me that if you are going to build a RV10,don't cheap out because there is a huge upside in the price appreciation for a well equipped IFR panel and engine/prop combination. This is like the range of a used Cirrus.
 
Assuming new basic engine and basic avionics and no extras around $150K.
There is an additional easy $100K that can be spent on kit upgrades and over the top avionics. There is an easy extra $50K in build assistance making a $200-300k total cost a real number.

Build it as Vans ships it and add any extras by doing your own work, your own wiring, interior, paint etc., and under $200k is both reasonable and will yield a great airplane. Mine was around $185k all in. I am all Garmin, full IFR and custom interior and exterior paint job. You can click on my signature kitlog line to see the results.

Time is a huge variable depending on the builder and how much you do yourself. I have seen logs that show around 1700 hours to first flight and others that show over 5000 hours. I think 2500 hours to build is realistic. Every custom touch adds many extra hours. I have seen builders take 2-3 hours to do the same job I do in 1.

I set a target of $2000/month, pay as you go, and 10 hours of work per week as an average. I beat both by a large margin. I was 5 years 3 mos and 10 days first unboxing to first flight. I had planned 7 years as my goal.

Be realistic, work on it every day in some fashion, and get going if you think you are up to the challenge. Plan on an amazing education along the way. Plan on another 1-2000 hours of non-shop time to study, learn and keep ahead of the build with part orders.

It is absolutely worth it!
 
Agree with most

I agree with most of the previous post. If you have a job that takes you oot, ten hours a week may not always work, which extends the build time.

Also, with todays prices, not sure $185k is really achievable unless you want to scrounge…

A couple things are for sure:

It will take longer than you think

It will cost more than you think

It will be worth it
 
90% done, 90% to go...

I'm in the homestretch with my build, hoping to move to the airport later this year and I just ordered my propeller, which is my last major expense to get ready to fly. I've done everything myself, including scrounging parts building my own engine and doing every single avionics wire and pin (lots of them...). Now, I did go all out with engine parts, avionics, fancy schmancy interior (wife requirement) and bought all aircraft grade parts, hardware and fittings, but my all in price is still just over 200K.

I want to point out that my engine, with custom SkyDynamics intake, custom exhaust that Vetterman made for me, SDS dual ECU EFII, B&C starter and alternators, combustion tech pistons, and list of other stuff, including three days of test and dyno work at Ly-Con - my all in cost for my engine was $38,348, which is about half of the current XIO-540 discounted at Van's - SO, add another 30K-40K to my costs if you're going the factory engine route.

I did spend over $7k on a Mountain High O2 system, so you can deduct that from the overall price, but this still all assumes my labor was free and that paint will come after phase one. Paint is a real wild card on pricing with DIY in the $5K range, upwards to 30K for a high end job.

Noting kit, engine, propeller and avionics price increases, and continuing inflation overall, I think building for under $200k is an unreasonable expectation and would advise a budget of at least $250k if I were starting today.
 
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I’m in the mid stretch with my build. My engine quote was just over 60k and I locked in the price with a huge deposit prior to the Lycoming price leap in July last year. Avionics from Stein will be just south of 50k. WW prop for another 13k. So yea I agree with the previous poster about budgeting 250k. It’s like building a custom house. Make a budget then add 15-20% for inflation, outrageous shipping costs and the bling that you will inevitably want.


Keith
 
This is a very humbling, but necessarily realistic thread. It sounds like you can't build any RV-10 - even a spartan version - for under $150K and $200K looks to be a stretch. $250K looks to be today's realistic cost assuming today's kit and tool prices starting off.

Completed planes going for $250-350K don't seem so bad from the buy-and-fly vs build-and-fly perspective.
 
Just a reference

For a point of reference, I am building a VFR RV8, IO360-M1B, ground adjustable FP, one 10" EFIS and autopilot. The kit+ new engine+ new avionics is over 95K. This doesn't include interior, paint, building tools, and other supplies I purchased in addition to the kit. The place to skim is getting a used engine/prop and salvaging the steam gauges. Greater net saving can be done with DIY interior and paint. I understand the potential customer base for the RV10 will want something a lot more upscale, Cirrus level accommodation.

P.S. The price for my RV8 is in line to most other kits out there too, including kits that use the the traditional aviation engine. The aluminum price from Vans is probably lower than the other kit makers, and from my estimate, it is less expensive to build than even the fabric super cub clones.
 
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I spent about $250 thousand. I used a Barrett engine with cold air induction (290hp) and FM300 throttle body, Showplanes cowl Whirlwind 77HRT prop Dynon 3 screen EFIS and Garmin GTN650. I tuned the injectors with help from Don Rivera at Airflow Performance. I get 170 TAS at 10,000 ft at 21 inches and 2300 rpm at 10.5 gal/hr running LOP. It’s a good performer. Doing the same thing now would probably be over $300,000.
 
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