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Lithium life - should I stay or should I go?

Flying Canuck

Well Known Member
Patron
I swapped out my Odyssey PC680 for a Shorai LFX18L1-BS12 2-1/2 years ago. Saved 12 pounds and had good performance from the new battery. Until I didn't and it left me stranded.

I flew up to a nearby airport for some night practice and a fuel stop on Monday evening. Startup after fueling proved troublesome, more than usual and I attempted 5-6 starts over 45 minutes and gave up when the voltage started to drop while I cranked. Tied the plane down and found my way home (only a 30 minute drive from home). Drove back up yesterday morning and put the charger on and then back mid afternoon to try to fly it back out. Charger (proper charger in Lithium mode) showed full charge. When I went to start, couldn't even turn a blade, voltage was only 10V. Looks like that's it for the life of this battery, just under 30 months. I secured the plane in a hangar. I didn't look to see the physical condition of the battery.

Now my dilemma. That Shorai battery seems to be in short supply, might be waiting 2-3 weeks for a replacement. I'm pretty sure I can get a new PC680 much quicker (although I haven't checked). I might put the old PC680 back in so I can get it back to my home base but I'm not sure that it has any life in it, it was fading when I changed it out and it's been sitting ever since.

I really don't need those 12 pounds of extra weight, but if I can only get a couple of years out of a battery and have it die suddenly, is lithium really viable long term?
 
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I am using a Deltran BTL24A480CW claiming 8 AH and 480 CCA. Cranks this high compression IO360 right up.
 
Claude, do you see anything different in the voltage or charging current in your EFIS data? Any changes?

I've got the tiny earthx battery which would be tough to replace on a trip due to it's very small size, so I'm looking for any hints that would indicate that there might be a problem.
 
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sbt-lfx18l1-bs12

Are you sure it isn't a BS12?

Is the 2 week+ delay a CANADA thing?

On LiFePo -

This is anecdotal, but I've seen cases of these LiFePo's not doing so well in colder climes (operators in CANADA, ME, NH, WA, MN, ND, SD, WI, etc.)

Also, and this is coming from the "Other RV" world, Boondockers are needing to warm their house/chassis LiFePo's before charging them via Solar, plug in Generator...

Maybe this is another in the list of LiFePo care&feeding list.
 
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I have a Shorei LFX18A1-BS12 in my Triumph motorcycle. 1050 cc, 12:1 compression ratio. I believe this is a Lithium Iron battery, so it may have completely different characteristics, but just an FYI.

Pros-

massive weight savings, and will sit all winter long without a battery tender and still crank right up in the spring.

Cons- WILL NOT develop enough happy electrons to crank that high compression bike over if its below about 35-40*f This isn't a result of sitting all winter. I'm talking, ride it one day, the temp drops to 40*f overnight, and it won't crank "robustly" the next morning until the battery warms up. If the temp drops into the 30's the headlights will come on and the fuel pump will run, but it doesn't have enough juice to crank at all.

Don't know if your battery is the same technology, but not liking cold is a real thing on the Shorei, at least in the motorcycle world.
 
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https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sbt-lfx18l1-bs12

Are you sure it isn't a BS12?

Is the 2 week+ delay a CANADA thing?

On LiFePo -

This is anecdotal, but I've seen cases of these LiFePo's not doing so well in colder climes (operators in CANADA, ME, NH, WA, MN, ND, SD, WI, etc.)

Also, and this is coming from the "Other RV" world, Boondockers are needing to warm their house/chassis LiFePo's before charging them via Solar, plug in Generator...

Maybe this is another in the list of LiFePo care&feeding list.

Indeed it's a BS12, my memory gets a 12/13 score.

I see deliveries Nov 12-24 for Amazon (coming from the US), not available on fortnine.ca which is where I got the first one and available to order with no delivery promises at the only other Canadian source I found. If I order from the US I have to add at least a week for shipping time since this is ground shippable only.

My battery hasn't had that hard of a life when it comes to weather. This particular tie down was the only outside overnight that was below freezing and it was just that. Most of its life has been in a hangar. Of course it operates in colder temperatures in the winter than the south but in a warm engine compartment, so temperature is probably not an issue while operating. It was 13C/55F when I tried to start yesterday, battery was colder but not all that much. Really temperature shouldn't be a consideration, Shorai says ideal storage temperature is 34F/+1C, colder is better.
 
Hi Claude
If you decide to go back to Odyssey, check out this source.
I used them last month & was impressed. Good (Canadian) price and even after shipping, was cheaper than anything I could find local.
https://odysseybattery.ca/

I got my last one from saskbattery.ca, a bit more expensive than the site you suggest, but with free freight it comes in cheaper by $20. And quick shipping from Regina.

I've got a line on the Shorai battery through SportCycle in Calgary for the end of next week. Probably will go in that direction if their price is reasonable.

EDIT: the battery is on indefinite backorder with Shorai. Summit Racing won't ship it to Canada either. So just ordered the one on Amazon which is showing delivery from Nov 10-24. Might have to dust off the Odyssey for a few weeks.
 
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Claude,

Can you source one of the other Shorai LiFePo batteries?
Maybe an LFX14A1-BS12. It's a little lower Ah total and lower CCA, but should work...
 
Charging voltage

Make sure that you check/adjust your charging voltage. My EarthX charges at 14.2 while a traditional should be 13.7.
 
I have a Shorei LFX18A1-BS12 in my Triumph motorcycle. 1050 cc, 12:1 compression ratio. I believe this is a Lithium Iron battery, so it may have completely different characteristics, but just an FYI.

Pros-

massive weight savings, and will sit all winter long without a battery tender and still crank right up in the spring.

Cons- WILL NOT develop enough happy electrons to crank that high compression bike over if its below about 35-40*f This isn't a result of sitting all winter. I'm talking, ride it one day, the temp drops to 40*f overnight, and it won't crank "robustly" the next morning until the battery warms up. If the temp drops into the 30's the headlights will come on and the fuel pump will run, but it doesn't have enough juice to crank at all.

Don't know if your battery is the same technology, but not liking cold is a real thing on the Shorei, at least in the motorcycle world.

Terry, reduced cold temperature performance is typical of this chemistry, some recommend a short high load to "preheat" the battery as internal resistance increases. Like a 10-15 amp load for 10-15 sec. Sorry, but I don't know the specifics and numbers of the procedure.

Lots of cons for an all weather replacement of the PbA battery.
 
I also have my EarthX set at 14.2. It’s also a good practice to warm a Lithium battery a bit before shocking it with a large load. When temps are below 40F I turn on my pitot heat during preflight. This puts a draw on the battery and causes the battery to warm up before engine starting. I am told this helps with longevity and the engine will spin better vice a dead cold battery.
 
I also have my EarthX set at 14.2. It’s also a good practice to warm a Lithium battery a bit before shocking it with a large load. When temps are below 40F I turn on my pitot heat during preflight. This puts a draw on the battery and causes the battery to warm up before engine starting. I am told this helps with longevity and the engine will spin better vice a dead cold battery.
Very interesting - it would be great to get some formal guidance from EarthX on how to deal with cold batteries.

Sounds like another good reason to preheat the engine compartment.
 
Charger (proper charger in Lithium mode) showed full charge.

If you didn't use the OEM Shorai charger which charges and balances each individual cell in the battery its likely your charger is what did the battery in. Its advisable to carry the Shorai charger in your tool bag. Its pretty small and lightweight.
 
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If you didn't use the OEM Shorai charger which charges and balances each individual cell in the battery its likely your charger is what did the battery in. Its advisable to carry the Shorai charger in your tool bag. Its pretty small and lightweight.

No charger, OEM or otherwise, can balance individual cells within the battery if it only has two electrical connections (positive and negative). All the charger can do is supply power at the correct voltage and amperage, and the internal BMS must handle the individual cell balancing.

I'm not advocating another charger in place of OEM - just saying that even the OEM charger, with ONLY two connections, is not capable of balancing the internal cells. For that, you need individual connections between each cell, not just the total end-to-end of the cells in series.
 
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The Shorai battery has a balancing charge port with access to each cell or at least banks of them.

No charger, OEM or otherwise, can balance individual cells within the battery if it only has two electrical connections (positive and negative). All the charger can do is supply power at the correct voltage and amperage, and the internal BMS must handle the individual cell balancing.
 
Define "traditional".

AGM batteries, and Odyssey in particular needs between 14-14.4 volts for a full charge.

Quote from here: https://www.odysseybattery.com/news/understanding-your-battery-warranty/

"For applications where an alternator is present, the alternator must deliver between 14.0V and 14.4V when measured at the Battery’s terminals. Consult the ODYSSEY® battery technical manual or owner’s manual for any necessary temperature compensation. Alternators that do not have a regulated charge between 14.0V and 14.4V (no lower than 14.0V and no higher than 14.4V) will cause early failure of the Battery. Use of such alternators with the Battery will also void the Battery’s warranty."

Make sure that you check/adjust your charging voltage. My EarthX charges at 14.2 while a traditional should be 13.7.
 
If you didn't use the OEM Shorai charger which charges and balances each individual cell in the battery its likely your charger is what did the battery in. Its advisable to carry the Shorai charger in your tool bag. Its pretty small and lightweight.

You may have hit on something there. I see that charger uses a dedicated charge port on the battery. It also looks like it's a pigtail connection so I can connect the charger though my oil door, that's what I did for my Norco smart charger. I've ordered the charger, thanks.
 
Not an expert by any means, but I have read that deep discharges cause much more damage to Li batteries than they do to lead acid batteries. I have heard they have a voltage floor, where recovery above that point is painless, but if the voltage drops too much below that floor, a lot of life is permanently lost.

Larry
 
Not an expert by any means, but I have read that deep discharges cause much more damage to Li batteries than they do to lead acid batteries. I have heard they have a voltage floor, where recovery above that point is painless, but if the voltage drops too much below that floor, a lot of life is permanently lost.

Larry

Quite true - this is the purpose of the low-voltage shutoff function in the EarthX BMS. Once the battery discharges to that level, the BMS isolates it and waits for charge.
 
2 1/2 years on my Shorais. I fly infrequently (about once per month on average) but never put these on a charger between flights. In winter, the hangar temp is around 6C. Cranks right up.

Some customers use these in Alaska and they say you need to warm them by turning on a 10 amp load for at least a minute before attempting an engine start on colder days.

I don't think lithium batteries are a great choice at temps below -10C.

They don't tolerate a deep discharge (below 20%) and may be permanently damaged by this. Forgetting the master is on when you leave the airplane can be fatal to them.

Shorais have no BMS which can be both a disadvantage and advantage, depending on the circumstances.

You lose a bunch of weight with these but there are disadvantages that come along with this technology. They may not be well suited to your mission or use.
 
I get around the country and talk to hundreds of aircraft owners. I had a "brand X" lithium battery in my RV-7. I had a lot of issues. So have many others, while there are those that have had no issues. Some customers have had "melt downs" where the plastic case deformed due to excessive heat. I have inspected several, where the electrical system was wired properly, but still had a melt down. Then there are my issues: When on essential power, the fully charged "brand X" would only last about 18 minutes as a house battery before the avionics tripped off. The Odyssey would last from 39 minutes to 48 minutes, depending on temperature. Then there was the issue of the "brand X" LED illuminating; the manufacture said it was 1/2 of the computer that went bad, no reset, it would stay that way until the other half went bad, and then I would be stranded. I might add that I received the battery warning while IMC, not a good feeling! I suggested to the manufacture that this would be like flying the Boeing and having a electrical caution light come on, and Boeing advising me that it would stay on until it totally failed!
So, we are all big boys, make your own decision! As far as the light weight batteries now on the market for Experimental aircraft, choose the one you feel good about, as for me, I will stay with the Odyssey until I can find a light weight unit that has decent house life and no complaints from a sampling of users.

DAR Gary
 
Reading all this I am sticking with AGM. (Any good substitute sizes and brands to Odyssey PC680?)

Suggestions:
Use a bigger battery box for range of battery sizes for flexibility (using spacers for smaller sized batteries)

Lithium with no BMS scares me a little (seeing a Lithium go super nova).

Lithium with BMS scares me, might shut electrical system down (but better than fire)

No battery likes to be deeply discharged or cold. However 40F is not cold.

Treat that battery nice, they are expensive.​

Thread drift, any good AMG subs for Odyssey PC680?
 
Thread drift, any good AMG subs for Odyssey PC680?
I replaced the PC680 in my RV-12 with a Power-Sonic PDC-12200B Battery.
I had to use some persuasion on the battery box 3 inch dimension to get PDC-12200B in place. It is a very tight fit. The PDC-12200B starts the 100HP Rotax 912ULS just fine. The PDC-12200B costs about $65. Old new stock is available on eBay for as little as $30.
 
I replaced the PC680 in my RV-12 with a Power-Sonic PDC-12200B Battery.
I had to use some persuasion on the battery box 3 inch dimension to get PDC-12200B in place. It is a very tight fit. The PDC-12200B starts the 100HP Rotax 912ULS just fine. The PDC-12200B costs about $65. Old new stock is available on eBay for as little as $30.

I have used these exclusively for 1000 hours on my 6 and 10. Very reliable and long lasting if taken care of. Less than 1/2 the price of odyssey with no downside IMHO.

Larry
 
Reading all this I am sticking with AGM. (Any good substitute sizes and brands to Odyssey PC680?)

Suggestions:
Use a bigger battery box for range of battery sizes for flexibility (using spacers for smaller sized batteries)

Lithium with no BMS scares me a little (seeing a Lithium go super nova).

Lithium with BMS scares me, might shut electrical system down (but better than fire)

No battery likes to be deeply discharged or cold. However 40F is not cold.

Treat that battery nice, they are expensive.​

Thread drift, any good AMG subs for Odyssey PC680?

I plan on taking my battery to -40. Maybe not on the ground, probably use a -30°c cutoff. But in flight at altitude, it's possible I'll see -40.

Unless I see hard evidence against, my plan is to but an EarthX on the firewall in their firewall battery box. That will keep it warm-ish all the time.
 
Received my Shorai charger today. I don't think I'm going to be able to leave the charger cable connected as the connector is a bit too long and is on the firewall side of the battery. Pulled the battery and brought it home to charge - my temporary hangar has a door problem and it's stuck open - way too cold to wait for a charge. Battery indicated being below 50% for a few minutes, so either my lithium charger isn't charging it well or the battery has an issue. I'll know tomorrow.
 
Then there was the issue of the "brand X" LED illuminating; the manufacture said it was 1/2 of the computer that went bad, no reset, it would stay that way until the other half went bad, and then I would be stranded. I might add that I received the battery warning while IMC, not a good feeling! I suggested to the manufacture that this would be like flying the Boeing and having a electrical caution light come on, and Boeing advising me that it would stay on until it totally failed!
I'm confused by this. If the battery has a failure that is indicated by a light, wouldn't you ground the plane until it can be fixed or replaced? It sounds like you're saying you wanted to treat it as not failed even though 1/2 the controlling circuitry had gone bad. Flying a Boeing, I would expect exactly the same thing. Or maybe I'm not understanding correctly, if so maybe you can clarify.
 
For those concerned about a automatic low voltage shutdown on a Lithium battery keep in mind their discharge characteristics mean the battery is about done at that point anyway. Lithium maintains its output voltage until almost completely discharged. When it hits 10.5 volts it’s about to go down rapidly if the shutoff did not occur.
One other point. I had a friend say he would never have a Lithium battery in his airplane. I nicely pointed out he was currently flying with 4. His IPad, IPhone, G3X backup and D10 backup.
 
For those concerned about a automatic low voltage shutdown on a Lithium battery keep in mind their discharge characteristics mean the battery is about done at that point anyway. Lithium maintains its output voltage until almost completely discharged. When it hits 10.5 volts it’s about to go down rapidly if the shutoff did not occur.
One other point. I had a friend say he would never have a Lithium battery in his airplane. I nicely pointed out he was currently flying with 4. His IPad, IPhone, G3X backup and D10 backup.

:p:p:p Lovin' it!
 
Yeah But . . .

For those concerned about a automatic low voltage shutdown on a Lithium battery keep in mind their discharge characteristics mean the battery is about done at that point anyway. Lithium maintains its output voltage until almost completely discharged. When it hits 10.5 volts it’s about to go down rapidly if the shutoff did not occur.
One other point. I had a friend say he would never have a Lithium battery in his airplane. I nicely pointed out he was currently flying with 4. His IPad, IPhone, G3X backup and D10 backup.

All you listed have managed power supplies and low C rates. Sticking a LiFePO into a system for deep discharge and a charging system designed for a PbA is not the same no matter how funny it sounds. Application environments matter.
 
All you listed have managed power supplies and low C rates. Sticking a LiFePO into a system for deep discharge and a charging system designed for a PbA is not the same no matter how funny it sounds. Application environments matter.

Not to mention that the mass, and therefore energy potential, is about 1/10 that of the airplane battery being referred to. Not saying that an Iphone battery can't do damage in a thermal runaway, only that it is a small fraction of the damage that the airplane battery can cause.

Larry
 
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One other point. I had a friend say he would never have a Lithium battery in his airplane. I nicely pointed out he was currently flying with 4. His IPad, IPhone, G3X backup and D10 backup.
Not to mention that the mass, and therefore energy potential, is about 1/10 that of the airplane battery being referred to. Not saying that an Iphone battery can't do damage in a thermal runaway, only that it is a small fraction of the damage that the airplane battery can cause.

The chemistry (and thus failure modes) of an iphone battery and a LiFePo battery (e.g. EarthX) are completely different.


For those concerned about a automatic low voltage shutdown on a Lithium battery keep in mind their discharge characteristics mean the battery is about done at that point anyway. Lithium maintains its output voltage until almost completely discharged. When it hits 10.5 volts it’s about to go down rapidly if the shutoff did not occur.
Everyone seems to get hung up on a cutoff voltage and thinks a lower (or nonexistent) cutoff voltage means "I'm getting all the juice out".
What actually matters is usable capacity--how long will the battery put out usable juice? It doesn't matter whether it cuts off itself, or the voltage drops too low for whatever it's powering. Poor analogy, but would you rather have a 10 gallon gas tank where every drop is usable, or a 15 gallon one with half a gallon unusable? The latter gives you 14.5 usable gallons vs. 10, but you aren't getting "every last drop". I know which one I want...


Then there are my issues: When on essential power, the fully charged "brand X" would only last about 18 minutes as a house battery before the avionics tripped off. The Odyssey would last from 39 minutes to 48 minutes, depending on temperature.
Useless comparison without knowing what models/capacity you were looking at, and whether you were comparing "lead acid equivalent" capacity (typically, cranking ability) or actual usable capacity (amp-hours at non-cranking draws).

Then there was the issue of the "brand X" LED illuminating; the manufacture said it was 1/2 of the computer that went bad, no reset, it would stay that way until the other half went bad, and then I would be stranded. I might add that I received the battery warning while IMC, not a good feeling! I suggested to the manufacture that this would be like flying the Boeing and having a electrical caution light come on, and Boeing advising me that it would stay on until it totally failed!
That's exactly what I would expect from a system with redundancy and fault-monitoring. And in fact, that's what such systems do on modern transport-category jets--in simple terms, they give you some kind of indication that one part/channel/lane has failed, and it stays on until remedied. Whether you need to land immediately, or can continue this flight, or can keep flying multiple flights, is spelled out in the manuals.

In this case you have a unit with redundant control channels, and one has failed. The warning light came on to tell you that you've lost one channel (so you know to get it fixed) but the other side has kept working so you can get down on the ground. Would you rather it not tell you one channel has failed, so you can carry on with no idea that you've lost that redundancy until the other channel fails and it dies on you with no warning?
 
Lithium Battery details

redundant control channels ???
I would like to know EXACTLY / SPECIFICALLY what those are ?
Can anyone tell me WHICH circuit(s) are " redundant " ???
How is a simple low voltage indicator light a fault monitor ??
Are the voltage displays in an EFIS panel considered a fault monitor also ?
An EGT gage could be a " fault " monitor too right "
So, what is so special about a blinking light that your not too sure what it means ?

I have a fault monitor also in my car. Its called an engine light.
It doesnt tell me anything, it just lights up.
what do they call those again ???
 
redundant control channels ???
I would like to know EXACTLY / SPECIFICALLY what those are ?
Can anyone tell me WHICH circuit(s) are " redundant " ???
How is a simple low voltage indicator light a fault monitor ??
Are the voltage displays in an EFIS panel considered a fault monitor also ?
An EGT gage could be a " fault " monitor too right "
So, what is so special about a blinking light that your not too sure what it means ?

I have a fault monitor also in my car. Its called an engine light.
It doesnt tell me anything, it just lights up.
what do they call those again ???

It's not a dummy light like in your car, there are 7 blink rates indicating different conditions including cells not balanced, overvoltage, high battery temperature, etc. Some are purely informational, others indicate a fault. The users manual has a quick reference guide with recommended actions for each condition. I don't know the specifics of the case cited, but from the discussion it sounds like it may have been solid red, which is shown as:
BMS electronic issue. Discontinue use. If in flight, this is not an immediate issue unless it is in conjunction with a charging system failure.​

That's clear enough for me -- land the plane, call the manufacturer. With our old Odysseys there was little indication of a problem until something failed or smoked. With the EarthX there's real-time diagnostics running to tell you of there's a problem. Good right?
 
That's clear enough for me -- land the plane, call the manufacturer. With our old Odysseys there was little indication of a problem until something failed or smoked. With the EarthX there's real-time diagnostics running to tell you of there's a problem. Good right?
Has anyone had an Odyssey suddenly fail or smoke?
 
Has anyone had an Odyssey suddenly fail or smoke?
Yes, my PC680 started my Rotax 912ULS just fine. When I closed the throttle to land, the Dynon D-180 rebooted. It did not have a backup battery at the time. It turned out that the PC680 had a broken internal weld found by Bob Nuckolls who conducted an autopsy on it. I posted about the failure on the AeroElectric List.
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16762906&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460534&sid=9a2e55932411ef8ddfc660aaf0e1c63f
 
Has anyone had an Odyssey suddenly fail or smoke?
I had an early failure of an Odyssey several years back (no smoke), was told is was probably a shorted cell as I recall. Fortunately close to home base so I wasn't AOG.

I've seen a few reports over the years including one from a couple of days ago (We let the smoke get out), two failed in a row due to a fused contactor.
 
Yes, my PC680 started my Rotax 912ULS just fine. When I closed the throttle to land, the Dynon D-180 rebooted. It did not have a backup battery at the time. It turned out that the PC680 had a broken internal weld found by Bob Nuckolls who conducted an autopsy on it. I posted about the failure on the AeroElectric List.
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16762906&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460534&sid=9a2e55932411ef8ddfc660aaf0e1c63f

Sounds like the failure was going on for some time, and the battery was 6 years old past it's normal service life IMO.

I've seen a few reports over the years including one from a couple of days ago (We let the smoke get out), two failed in a row due to a fused contactor.

If you short the batteries terminals and kill it then I don't think it's fair to blame the battery.
 
I’m that guy

As the guy who let the smoke out, that story doesn’t actually defame the Odyssey. Actually it appears to have soldiered on for some time despite heavy abuse caused by my ignorance.

Sounds like the failure was going on for some time, and the battery was 6 years old past it's normal service life IMO.



If you short the batteries terminals and kill it then I don't think it's fair to blame the battery.
 
If you short the batteries terminals and kill it then I don't think it's fair to blame the battery.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I wasn't blaming the battery, was simply responding to the question. I personally have no beef with Odyssey batteries, I ran them reliably for a long time with only the one failure which was covered under warranty.

Truth be told I switched to the EarthX purely for the weight factor. But I like the added benefit of the management system (BMS) which could potentially save the battery or provide early warning in the case of internal or external problems. There have been several posts complaining about that which don't make a lot of sense to me.
 
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