VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.

  #1  
Old 10-17-2013, 02:15 PM
J Twilbeck's Avatar
J Twilbeck J Twilbeck is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Huntsville AL
Posts: 145
Default Instrument Panel Plan

I found myself constantly wondering what to do about the instrument panel and all the avionics. The question constantly popped into my head and it was followed with more questions. Do I just build the upper forward fuselage section and worry about all the avionics later? Will it all fit? Do I want to buy or build a center console? Stock panel or expensive aftermarket panel? Layout? Install now or wait? etc...etc... So I decided to model the entire system to allow me to formulate a plan and resolve a lot of the questions and concerns I had.

So here is my plan...

This is the 3D model I created to show the aircraft structure and how I want to integrate my avionics; a Dynon Skyview system with a Vertical Power ECB and a Garmin GTN 635. I will be using Van's instrument panel and new fuel selector. I will be making the center console, side console closeout panel, and fuel valve enclosure. The center console mounts an iPad mini that is removable, and when removed reveals a small storage compartment for sunglasses etc. The instruments and avionics are shown below.


This is a diagram showing all the avionics, instruments, and antennas required for the aircraft. This does not include: switches, probes, lights, or sensors.


This is a diagram showing the location of each component along with other view orientations.
Note:
- There are mount angles attached to the ribs directly aft of the firewall. These angles are there to install the panels shown. The panels stand off the firewall 1.0in (no new holes in the firewall) and will be lined on the forward side with sound proofing. The other advantage to having the removable panels in this area is the avionics can be mounted to the panel, outside the aircraft, and then the panel screwed into place.
- The VP-X will be mounted on a plate that spans the instrument panel lower angle and sub panel lip. This allows easy access to the component for the large quantity of wiring that will be going to it.
- The ribs do not need to be modified. Only the subpanel will need to be modified to allow the GTN 635 installation.
- The Transceiver and Transponder are mounted directly to the existing tunnel cover side by side.
- The new center console will be made from fiberglass and can be relatively thin since the only thing that is installing to it is the iPad mini.

This is the plan for now...subsequent to change at any time : )
Any insight, comments, concerns, etc are welcome.
__________________
Justin Twilbeck
RV-10 N521TW
Flying!!
http://buildingrv10.blogspot.com
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-17-2013, 02:25 PM
jwilbur jwilbur is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Culpeper, VA
Posts: 696
Default Very nice

This looks very nice. Do you plan any independent backup instruments?

Can I ask what software you used and would you be willing to share your design files as a starting point for me to use on my own panel design?
__________________
-Joe Wilbur
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-17-2013, 03:20 PM
blahphish's Avatar
blahphish blahphish is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Marietta, GA (KCZL)
Posts: 311
Default

Looks nice Justin. Thanks for sharing your concept.
__________________
Brian Unrein
RV10 N42BU 900+ hours!
First flight 6-16-12
https://N42BU.com
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-17-2013, 03:32 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 7,163
Default

Cut out pieces of paper images to scale, scotch tape them to the real panel, put a seat cushion in the plane at the proper position, and see if you are happy with the "feel". e.g., Is it too long a reach to the GTN knobs? Does your arm block a critical view when you turn the knob? Another example, this is how I found out I wanted my efis lower (I wear bifocals).

Stein recently pointed out that the cost difference between the 635 and 650 can be very little, if you catch a rebate at the right time. There are still times when only an ILS will do...

For IFR, some prefer a completely stand alone backup for flight instruments, to preclude a software bug from taking out an entire interconnected system.

Unless you are young and tireless, I would include an autopilot. Maybe you just didn't list the servos.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-17-2013, 03:44 PM
Gash's Avatar
Gash Gash is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Goodyear, Arizona
Posts: 908
Default

How many ADAHRS are you planning on? You can put in a Dynon D6 as a backup attitude, airspeed and altitude all in one small package. It also has a separate ADAHRS so that if your Skyviews go Tango Uniform, you'll have a completely separate system (software and ADAHRS) in the D6. This is what I did in my panel. It's cheap life insurance!
__________________
Karl, Goodyear, Arizona (KGYR) ATP, CFII
RV-14A
Yak 50
=VAF= donor 2021
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-17-2013, 03:48 PM
Gash's Avatar
Gash Gash is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Goodyear, Arizona
Posts: 908
Default

One more thing. It seems like a long reach to your nav/com stack. Good advice in a previous post to make sure you're okay with the position before you cut any holes in the panel. Consider ergonomics like leaning against shoulder straps to reach the knobs, flying with your left hand, and how often you're going to be reaching over there for freq changes, etc.
__________________
Karl, Goodyear, Arizona (KGYR) ATP, CFII
RV-14A
Yak 50
=VAF= donor 2021
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-17-2013, 04:18 PM
J Twilbeck's Avatar
J Twilbeck J Twilbeck is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Huntsville AL
Posts: 145
Default

Thanks for the comments and please keep them coming. Feedback is valuable.

To answer a few questions:
I used SolidWorks to model everything. The model consists of about 70 separate components and is about 18mb in size. jwilbur PM me if interested in a few components in particular.

I plan on printing the hole thing to scale on our plotter and hanging it in the aircraft, followed by engine noises and pretend dog fights, to get a good feel for it all.

Thanks for the feedback Bob, you always have good replies for people. I lingered for a long time on whether I should install a system and antenna for ILS approaches or just go full GPS/WAAS. I settled on just the GPS because I really prefer GPS approaches over ILS and almost every time you can descend just as low. Also almost every airport has a GPS approach and the ILS approaches are few and dying out. (also, I didn't list, but will have, the fully coupled autopilot from Dynon as well)

After installing dual Dynon screens with dual adahrs and dual backup batteries and a GTN Nav box I decided I didn't need a backup for my backups....but I will look into the D6. I would really like to hear more about how you guys decided on additional backups and why you wanted them. I consider this system redundant but maybe I am missing something.

Thanks All!
__________________
Justin Twilbeck
RV-10 N521TW
Flying!!
http://buildingrv10.blogspot.com
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-17-2013, 05:18 PM
N941WR's Avatar
N941WR N941WR is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
Default

I know this is for a -10 but how much of that center console has to come out for your condition inspection?

Also, the Dynon EMS module has connectors on both side, it has the footprint of a dinner plate.
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-17-2013, 06:09 PM
Gash's Avatar
Gash Gash is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Goodyear, Arizona
Posts: 908
Default

The reason I decided on a D6 backup is that when Skyview software glitches, you can potentially lose both screens at the same time. I didn't believe it until I spent some time reading the support forums on their website. It has happened before, and so I suppose it could happen again. Don't get me wrong--I absolutely love my Skyviews. But if you get the "blue screen of death" (or whatever the equivalent is for the Skyview computer screens), then you're going to need to do a power cycle and pray that they come back up. Not an ideal situation if you're in the weather. So I wanted to get a completely separate system--software and ADAHRS--to get help me keep the rubber side down while I troubleshoot the Skyviews if it ever becomes necessary.

By the way, I can't claim to be the smart guy to think of all this. Stein gave me the idea (thanks!)
__________________
Karl, Goodyear, Arizona (KGYR) ATP, CFII
RV-14A
Yak 50
=VAF= donor 2021
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-17-2013, 06:19 PM
SteinAir SteinAir is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,473
Default

Nice job so far. However there are a couple things that catch my eye...

One thing that catches my eye right away is the location of the radio stack. It's pretty much over in front of the co-pilot (that right rib is about 24" right of pilot center, and is pretty close to centered on the co-pilot). Slightly offset is never an issue, but being that far over is a good ways from a comfortably usable position. It's a long way to read things, a long way to modify IFR fligthplans in the GPS, etc..

Next, I'd strongly suggest shying away from mounting any boxes on the firewall that you can put on the panel side of the sub-panel or on a shelf between the two. You can easily access stuff on the sub panel, but getting to stuff mounted on the firewall after the plane is done is more than a royal pain...I can guarantee you it will be, even with your mounting panels. For example, you still have to get the d-subs connected, screws tightened, etc.. All in poor light with pretty much one hand (or added clumsy use of the 2nd). Putting them on the sub panel means you simply remove one of those big honkin Dynon screens, reach through the now gaping hole with one or both hands while simply sitting in the seat. I can't stress enough how much easier this solution is over trying to crawl down under the panel. If it were me, I'd put everything in front of the Dynon screens, so that when me went to work on it I wouldn't be cussing at the builder!

Lastly and as others have mentioned (and I'll be my usual blunt self here), the GTN-635 is just a poor use of money in my opinion - especially when you can often get the 650 for the same price. Sure you may not think you'll "use" the ILS, but ILS aside out here in the boonies on the prairie, it's not uncommon for AWOS/HIWOS to be on a VOR freq, or at remote airports receiving transmissions for opening/closing a flightplan is on a VOR freq. Also, if you ever go to sell the plane I can guarantee someone will wonder "why the heck did he not just get the better box" and scratch their heads. Heck, even if you don't sell the plane people will still wonder!

I think you are off to a good start, I'd also just do a flat sheet panel and toss the stock Van's panel which will give you more vertical room to play with in the panel without costing much money at all.

Those are my quick 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein

Oh, and PS...what others have said. Get a backup (like a D1, D2, D6, D10) that isn't the same main box/software for reliability. Multiple ADAHRS on the same networks with the same software is excellent for redundancy, not so much for emergency reliability. Couple examples why: If you dual ADAHRS system shows a mismatch and you're in the clouds, each screen can display what each box is showing. If one is leaning right and one is leaning left, which is correct? You need a tie breaker. Also, it hasn't been that many years ago that an EFIS vendor had a short term bug that they quickly fixed where if you pressed the wrong button keys in the wrong order, the entire system would lock up (and need rebooted) no matter now many screens or ADAHRS you had.

Last edited by SteinAir : 10-17-2013 at 06:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:26 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.