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Dream Killer or Dream Plane

dworley

I'm New Here
My entire life I grew up around aviation and my father was a homebuilder of a Long-EZ. Through the years of growing up flying in his Long-EZ and seeing other local pilots building RV-4's and RV-6's I told myself one day I want to build my own plane as well. At the time, I wasn't sure what I wanted to build, but I had really fell in love with some of the RV's at our local airport. Most of that had to do with the builders being very friendly, they had outstanding workmanship, and even took me up in them several times. After that, I caught myself looking at all of the RV's in the homebuilt flight line at Oshkosh every year we went. Even when I was 12-13 I was attending the sheet metal workshops learning how to rivet and do many other things.

Fast forward several years and I now have my private pilots license and am working on my instrument rating. My dream of building my own plane is even closer than I can imagine and I decided that the RV-7 is what I want. I came up with a rough estimate of the costs and what I would like in the plane and nearly had it set in stone. My girlfriend, who is a huge supporter of me building an airplane, decided to drop a bomb on me. She mentioned the idea of building an RV-10 instead. She said that we have several friends (couples), family, and in the future a kid that could all benefit from having a 4 seat airplane. We spend a lot of time with our friends and family and often don't go out and do things alone. There have been circumstances in the past that I have loaded up 4 of us in a 172 for a $100 hamburger run. I hated that the WB limited me to only having enough fuel on board to get us there and then would have to refuel there to make it back. It wasn't even a long flight either. On top of that I remembered growing up and my dad always having to leave me behind for vacations because only my parents could fit in the plane. I just think the experience growing up in aviation would have been even better if we would have all been able to go together as a family.

All that being said, made me think maybe and RV-10 would be worth it. I only intend on building one plane and plan on keeping it forever. Things can obviously change through the years, but that is my thought on it currently. Plus knowing I am only going to build one allows me to put everything into that "one plane" I want to make it perfect for us. Being a both a planner and a thinker, I started looking at the financial aspect and the differences in the RV-7 and RV-10 and it kind of scared me. Partly because I hadn't planned for it like I did the 7 already. I know there is obviously going to be a large price difference, but I began to wonder if our household income would allow us to not only build it, but then maintain it to the point we actually can enjoy it. Together we have a household income of roughly $135,000 with a mortgage and two car payments. I know obviously there are people with much deeper pocket books that have no trouble with this issue, but are there any builders with lower household incomes build, fly, and maintain an RV-10 to the point they can truly enjoy it?

I know that if I want to do it then I need to just set my mind to it and make it happen. Of course there would be budget cut places, and I would have to save money to put towards the plane rather than "playing" as much. I am just looking for some advice and tips from some previous builders that will put reality into perspective and let me know if it is or isn't doable.
 
boy, this a touchy subject and only you can make that call. myself, i think i would be way too selfish putting that kind of a burden on the family income .there are a lot of things that mean a lot to others you love who are gonna do without their joys in life so you can have 10.
 
Have you considered building the 7 as your personal aircraft and looking for partners later to group-build or buy and club-own a 10? I know the 10 is truly awesome in its own right, but the nimbleness and economy of the 7 would be very hard for me to live without, and truth for many RV?rs is that the great majority of of our flight hours are solo. Boring highly articulated holes through all three dimensions is a sheer delight in the 7! The 10 is unexcelled for hauling big loads over great distances, and certainly more rewarding to fly than most others that can fill that role, but how often will you actually do that?

That said, I know you have a tough choice to make- worth pondering for as long as needed before making the commitment. Good luck and happy building!
 
If you live in Arkansas and bring in $135K per year you SHOULD have a lot of financial flexibility, but obviously everyone’s situation, priorities, and money management skills are different. All that to say, many of us have built various RV models with proportionately less than you without it diminishing the quality of life for our loved ones. Also keep in mind that how much people spend on their RV builds vary dramatically from one builder to the next. For the lower end, Vans cost estimator proved quite realistic for me, but I know builders who spent twice as much.
Good luck.
 
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Just make sure you go into this eyes wide open. Besides the cost of the kit, tools, shop supplies, engine, avionics, interior, modifications, and paint, make sure you account for the costs of ownership. You know, hangar rent, insurance, gas, maintenance, databases, etc.

Also be aware that some costs are lump sums. My insurance, for example, is due in full at renewal with no payment plan option like with car insurance.

As for as building, just realize it?s diiffcult to have your cake and eat it to. By that I mean it?s hard to focus exclusively on building as ?life? happens. My project took 9 years from the day I ordered the tailbone kit to first flight. I thought it take half that when I started, but work, family, and other things simply made the available time for building limited. My experience is by no means the rule, but it?s not uncommon either.
 
Yeah

I planned on 5 year build time and $150k budget for my -10.

I am at 6.5 years and 2200 hours build time and am not flying yet.

I will have $185k, without paint, when I do my first flight.

My only regret is I didn?t start building ten years prior to when I did...
 
Your girlfriend is a wise person. You can share the cost and the other impacts with her and she'll have some good ideas.

One idea might be to buy a certified four-seater for now. Don't know how appealing that might be, probably not a lot, but remember that building is a trade-off: every hour spent building is an hour not spent flying. Even at 110 mph you can do a lot of traveling in the time it would take to build any of the RVs.

As for the annual costs, what I do is keep a spreadsheet of all my annual and quarterly expenses, and figure out a monthly payment that covers everything and is the same every month. When I pay my bills, I put money into that account or take some out, depending on what's coming due that month. The impact is the same month to month that way.

Dave
 
Kit building spreads it out and comes with bennies

I chose to build a 14A in July 2014 at 67. Figured I could do it in about 5 years.
I am in the final phases and believe I will have it ready for first flight around the first of the year 2020.

I had been kicking the tires on Bellanca Vikings for a few years before I took on the build. I enjoy the building and have found that spreading out the purchase of the kits and all of the extra stuff has worked to fit the amount of available funds. Plus, there's the friends and relationships that come with the exercise. Walk around the vendors at KOSH or KLAL and compare prices of airplane stuff for certified versus experimental, that's a wake up.

Once you get past the empennage kit and into the fuselage or wings you better consider yourself committed to going all the way. I don't believe you can sell a partially built kit for more than 70%+/- of what you have in it (it's not an airplane until it flies). You have to work on it EVERY DAY. The 14 kits get progressively more expensive as you go and there is always a tool or supply item to buy at the big box or from the many web vendors.

I'm glad I took this journey.
 
Umm

?...You have to work on it EVERY DAY...?

You have to TRY.

Life happens, work happens, and so the best you can do is try.

Those that choose the project over family, may find the costs are not worth the rewards...
 
It is possible to build a -10 for ~$150k.

That's a lot of money to set aside on a $135k income unless you've already saved a substantial amount already, are prepared to cut all of your other expenses to the bone, or can accept a long build schedule. Think about it. For a 5 year build, you'd need to set aside $30k/year for 5 years to build a "budget" RV-10.

I would take a hard look at Comanches if I was in your situation.
 
A mortgage & 2 car payments - u need to get past the point of living on monthly payments. Don?t even start thinking about airplane costs until your cars, at least, are paid off. And don?t go buy a new car with debt. Lots of unfinished kits come up for sale because there isn?t enough monthly income
 
I would maybe buy a good used 6,7,or 9 now...if you can afford it and then maybe plan and budget on an 8-10 year RV-10 build. You could be having fun flying while you?re slowly building your 10. When you start getting close....maybe a year or so out from finishing it and get to the point where you need to purchase the big ticket items such as the engine and avionics, you can sell your flying airplane and invest that money into those big ticket items.

If you keep your flying airplane in good condition, hopefully you?d be able to get all or most of your money back out of it. Like others have said, I think you?ll find that you?ll be flying solo 90% of the time. I truly believe that getting into the RV world with a good used bird is the way to go for your first one.

Heck, you never know, while you?re saving up for that 10 build you may run across one that?s 50-75% finished that someone needs to get out from under and pick it up at a huge savings....as compared to new. This would save you both a lot of time and money. Believe me, those deals do come up from time to time.
 
and another thing....

some good observations here.
I have not built a plane, so take all this with a grain of salt.
your big 'life' spreadsheet might want to include a couple other things.
1. mortgage rates can go up over the 25 years you might be paying it, totally absorbing all your plane money
2. that 'kid' that might come along, can become two. ....you ARE sending them to college, right? exactly at the time you need to come up with $67,000 for that panel and engine.
3. Partner in the -10.
4. buy an old RV-4 for the 90% of the time you're just 'keeping the rust at bay' while you build, then sell it ....when you need that IO-390/540 engine!

but dream on, those things tend to become reality..... for you 'glass half full o' avgas' types of people! :)
 
Options

While the RV kits are undoubtedly the best kit plane available, they are also one of the most expensive experimental options.

Where is that Long-EZ your Dad used to fly? Is it available for you?

Also... don?t rule out a budget RV-10... mid time engine for $15k, single efis panel for $10k... not everyone gets a $30k panel and an engine that needs to be broken in.

But as has been said... if you don?t have a few hundred dollars a month extra cash, then its not yet time for a big plane. RV-3 or maybe a Varieze?
 
Get rid of the car payments right off the bat. If you can't pay cash for a car, you sure can't pay for an airplane.

Unless you have a need for an airplane the size (and cost) of an RV10, why on earth would you buy and fly an airplane so costly to own and operate?

Unless you have a clearly defined mission, don't buy or build "the biggest" or "the fastest" or whatever. Own the airplane that suits your needs now. When your needs change, get the airplane that meets your needs.
 
Really?

"...If you can't pay cash for a car, you sure can't pay for an airplane..."

How many folks out there CAN afford to pay cash for a car...ever?

There are plenty of people who can't afford to pay cash for a car that do have an airplane, and are disciplined enough to make it work...
 
"...If you can't pay cash for a car, you sure can't pay for an airplane..."

How many folks out there CAN afford to pay cash for a car...ever?

There are plenty of people who can't afford to pay cash for a car that do have an airplane, and are disciplined enough to make it work...

I'm one of those. There are lots of folks that say never, ever finance a toy--rubbish. IMO it's OK as long as one understands and can effectively manage the debt load. It's simple math really. While there is absolutely nothing wrong with the cash only strategy, its just not the only way. If I had waited to only pay cash for things, I'd be like my parents who by the time they could afford to pay cash were too old to enjoy them.
 
I'm on roughly the same income, but probably much lower expenses since it's just me. I found the building process to at least be doable but I'm planning to finance the engine and avionics portion at the very least. I found Brian and Brandi's spreadsheet to be very helpful:
https://www.n42bu.com/post/2012/02/07/RV-10-Cost-Planner.aspx

I was able to figure out exactly when I would need a loan and how much I would need to kick in per month to keep the finance cost affordable with money left over to operate the plane.

But yeah, this is a very personal decision since it will depend on what expenses and priorities you have, everyone is different.
 
"...If you can't pay cash for a car, you sure can't pay for an airplane..."

How many folks out there CAN afford to pay cash for a car...ever?

There are plenty of people who can't afford to pay cash for a car that do have an airplane, and are disciplined enough to make it work...

I gave up fancy cars and a nice motorcycle a long time ago so I could afford the RV.
A new car to me is gently used 10yr old vehicle, I run them another 5 years then trade em in on a 'new' 10 year old vehicle, and yes I pay cash for them.
Sold the motorcycle and took out a loan when it was time to pay for the engine.
 
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It can be done but it will take a while in calendar time. Things can change drastically in 10 or more years of time. Think about how this might impact your situation.

If I had waited till everything was perfect before building, I would not have a completed RV7 nor would I be building a RV10.
 
I found Brian and Brandi's spreadsheet to be very helpful:
https://www.n42bu.com/post/2012/02/07/RV-10-Cost-Planner.aspx

I also found this spreadsheet by Brian and Brandi quite helpful. Costs need to be updated and things will always take longer than you think!
10 vs 7 (or 14) is only something you can decide. I'm glad I went with the 10, even when I get my monthly reminder e-mails from myflightbook telling me I only flew 7 hours so far this year. :(

As other has said, this is a big commitment both in time and finances. You and your girlfriend will have to discuss this as well as longer term commitments. How much of your "disposable" income do you want to commit to this. Any habits you plan on changing (used vs new car, less eating out, paying down debt, stop flying rental aircraft, etc).

Looks like you are trying to think it through and going about things the right way.
 
Pretty similar situation, and things do/can/will change in life. When I started my -10 I had a great amount of spare income which went into an airplane fund, the cash flow plan looked like it was going to pencil out just fine and the kit got ordered. Exactly 1 year later I had an unexpected new career opportunity come up and I accepted it, but with that came a lower income and a 3x cost of housing increase. I'm now scratching my head unsure if this will work. No debt except the house, wife has a nice car, and I'm happy to keep driving my $6k Toyota in trade for airplane parts. While we don't have a big house or new cars my wife and I have a bigger picture view of what family life and adventures (hopefully) will look like for us. Sometimes it is hard to stay focused on that when frustrations come up and an expensive something needs replaced.

What I'm looking at now: I'm riveting my tailcone together, QB wings are bought/delivered, and the fuselage kit is bought/with an RV building friend having some work done to it while I work through the wings. I have lots of work ahead of me before I need to buy big things again (years), by then I'll have some savings for a finishing kit and maybe avionics. But I'm accepting now that the FWF will most likely be financed, which I really didn't want to do. I feel like while the total bill is huge, I have a good start at it.

Point is, my situation has changed majorly in the last 1-2 years. But, it could change all over again, good or bad, in the next few years as well. I'll just keep my head down, pound rivets, and try to live frugally till I hopefully look up and there's an airplane I built ready for its first flight. It is hard to vision that when finances get tight, I hop online, and budget-less RV builds are being completed on a growing basis. My best advice is be smart, get disciplined, put your family first, and keep your dream in sight. I've told myself if I ever have to bail on the project someday I'll just trade it for a Cherokee 180 and fly the **** out of it!
 
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RV10

After I pulled the trigger I wondered why I hadn't done it sooner. I always tell others if you are interested in building a plane buy the first piece now! When I purchased mine I was apprehensive of the cost. During the build I found ways to pay for each piece as I ordered them while saving for the engine and avionics. For me motivation to make more money came with the build and the dream of having my own RV10. I built a slow build RV10 in 25 months, fortunately I had a great work schedule.
The ten is a great airplane. We don't have kids but my wife and I have many DINK friends....Double Income No Kids. I find I have more than two people in the plane on our pleasure trips and if it's just my wife and I, we usually have our golden retriever with us. It also nicely fits two mountain bikes in the back with the rear seats removed. I also fly it alone when I take it for my work commute. It's pretty good on fuel use.

DO IT!
 
If you have to ask...

I have read all the other posts and agree with everyone on here.
Buying/building a plane is such a luxury. If you have to ask for validation from a community of pilots, I think you already know the answer and are just looking for validation.

Can it be done. YES
Should it be done. That is for you to decide. Take a hard look at your finances and understand the cost of building / buying and ultimately ownership is a number YOU have to be comfortable with.

Some people change their lives to accommodate having an airplane. That's their choice.

I did not want to change so many things that I began to resent the airplane I'm trying to build/afford. I still have a family that wants to go on vacations and you have a girlfriend who probably might expect some normalcy of life (unless she is a complete airplane nut like all of us..then marry her ASAP). I like nice cars and dinners out and other frivolous things. Some might say.."yeah he's a doctor no big deal fro him." But the more you make the more you end up spending. One wise surgeon told me..if you earned $1,000,000 but spent it all then you made nothing. It took me almost 2-3 years before committing because I know I wanted to build the plane I wanted, not the one I could afford.

These planes are liabilities not assets on your financial portfolio. They will continue to take money to upkeep and use and there is a low probability of getting 100% of your investment back if you sell.

Not trying to be negative, but trying to be realistic.
 
It is worth looking at the Sling 4 TSI if you want a 4 seater. There was a good test flight report in Kit Planes about 3-5 months ago. Worth reading. Also comparison on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPTGHqZlbBo
I have a 10 and I think it is the best kit built single piston plane on the planet!!
Johan
 
Thank you!

Well I first want to start out by thanking everyone who took the time to read my thread and respond. This is one reason why I reached out to the RV community because so far everyone has been very informative and helpful. I?m going to try my best to answer everyone?s post in this one.

It is a large financial responsibility, but we both have talked very seriously about it and crunched a lot of numbers. She loves aviation and wants both of us to have a plane we can love and enjoy until hopefully I can?t fly anymore. Our original plan with the RV-7 was to purchase the kit pieces one step at a time. We had it figured out how much we could set a side a month to then pay cash for the next portion. This was roughly a 3-5 year plan depending on how much I could work on it. By the end of that phase we would have a paid for plane and would finance an engine and avionics and do the paint ourself. That being said we made sure when crunching numbers that we had plenty of money sat aside each month for date night, retirement, medical expenses, the occasional aircraft rental, and etc.

When the idea of the RV-10 came from her the idea of the added expense scared me at first. Part of the reason I started this thread so I made sure I had a bit of a reality check before pulling the trigger. You all have been great on giving me pros, cons, and other options. We thought it would be best to watch our finances for the next year or two and in that time we will have all of our debt paid off minus one car and our house payment. I believe then we could do the same plan as the RV-7 and only owe on a new motor and basic IFR panel.

I have looked into other brands and model aircraft but a Van?s RV has always been my dream plane, the builder/owner community is AMAZING, the quality of the product, and what looks to be a more streamlined build process is what made my decision to go with them. Plus I?ve had some stick time in various models and helped other builders on theirs. I did look back at my logbook and noticed the only time I fly alone is if it?s in relation to instrument time I?m working on or when I?m going up to stay current. Other than that I always have 1-2 passengers with me. That being said and the future of a kid has made me understand a 4 seater makes a lot more sense than a 2 seater. I just remember growing up and my dad having to decide on who goes to Oshkosh or vacation this year. He hated to drive and would only fly. I think being to take friends or family instead of making that tough decision is priceless.

Also, thank you for the spreadsheet! I will be checking that out and hopefully using it. I?ve always been a planner and sometimes my planning to the point that I wanted things perfect lead to me never being able to commit to things. I believe this is something like a couple of you have said that when it makes sense and I think I can do it just pull the trigger and order the first piece.

I?m still in the process of acquiring tools, getting the build area ready, and saving money for the next year or two before I jump in head first. In the mean time I will most likely being bugging you all with questions and following your builds or threads to learn as much as possible! Thank you again!
 
Well I first want to start out by thanking everyone who took the time to read my thread and respond.

If you're really interested in building an RV-10, start today by going into RV-10 financial mode for a year or so and just put the money (every cent you can spare) somewhere safe. See what kind of nest egg you can build over that time and how much it strains the budget. Then extrapolate and consider how long it will take you to pay for the project at that savings rate.

That will give you a good indication of how this fits your budget and will also give you a nest egg to use in buying the first several kits. One thing to remember is these projects are extremely backloaded in terms of cost. Firewall forward is $65k. Your panel will easily be $15k, probably more, and paint is likely to cost $10K plus or minus.

If you're truly serious, you should look for good deals on used tools and maybe a tail kit. Even if you turn around and sell them later, you should recoup the cost. The farther into the project you go, however, the harder it'll be to get your money back out of it until after it has flown.

For instance, if I tried to sell my (nearly complete) -10 project right now, it would probably bring $0.80 on the dollar for my investment. In a few months, after it flies, I'm guessing it would bring $1.20 on the invested dollar.
 
Thinking of some friends of mine who are building an RV-10. They had plans for a family, and sure enough, the first one gets to see the project in the shop. Might be worth having that discussion too, with your girlfriend.

Dave
 
Guys where did Van hide his build estimator on the new web site:confused:
His estimator was pretty good for a budget build estimate.
 
Plane to fly first

First buy a Piper Cherokee 180 or 236 now for flying your mission with friends.
Later after kids have finished college build a 7 for your personal Jeti Starfighter.

And since you'll have the Cherokee or Cessna (C172 or C182) you won't be in a rush, since you have something to fly.

I'll bet your girlfriend's enthusiasms is more about flying then watching you build. So start flying first.
 
first item...

sounds like the first thing you need to work on is changing the status of girlfriend to wife :)

I'm on year 13 for my RV-10 kit and should be done by August/September time frame (this year). I wouldn't change a thing. Sure I wish I had been flying it for ever now but I've got a wife and young kids and job changes house remodel then out of state move and so on an so forth. Life happens. With a 13 year build I haven't had to worry about how to pay for things. My kit was multi thousands cheaper than they are today too.

One thing to consider it can be depressing not seeing much progress. Make sure you can stomach seeing dust covering your project and long bouts of waiting to "get back at it". That is pretty tough on you sometimes.
 
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Run the numbers...

You need to run some numbers. Some honest numbers

The previous post would have you purchase a Cherokee 180 or Comanche 260, and fly it.

Either of those aircraft are going to cost $50k+ to buy. Don?t forget to figure in the interest on the loan. I checked last month and, depending on many factors, it was around 5% above 50k to 7.5% below 50k. That works out to around $400/month. Now figure in your fixed costs of hangar, annual inspection, insurance, etc. For an easy data point, for my 1957 C172, liability only insurance was around $500/year, hangar was $225/ month, owner assisted annual was $500/year if there was nothing wrong. Include any reserves you may want, too. Now figure in what it costs to fly it...about 10 gallons per hour at maybe 4.50/gallon. Let?s say you fly it 50 hours per year, or 500 gallons of fuel, which is another $2250 per year.

You can see that even a simple vfr aircraft can cost you close to a $1000 a month to own and operate...and that is if nothing goes wrong.

Now consider saving for college on top of that, plus all of your other liabilities. The numbers can be staggering. Building first allows you to spread the finances over time, though flying won?t be an option unless you rent.

I can tell you that my only regret in building my rv-10 is that I did not start building ten years earlier. You see, my kids are now in college and I am still not flying my -10. Now it will be used for visiting the future grand children...
 
Options for 4 seater

I am in a similar situation where I would really love to build a 10. I have 6 kids (all boys, never got the girl), so I feel like there is justification for at least 4 seats. That being said, I also realize that I'm 45 and that building is likely going to take a good 5-10 years -- especially because I won't go into debt for it and will be building slow build. As my wife and I have thought through this, we are actually leaning towards building a 7 or 9 because the reality is that by the time I finish, nearly all of my kids will be out of the house. Of course, there will likely be trips with Grandchildren, etc. too where a 10 would be great. But I feel like the reality is that a lot, if not most of the time, I'll be flying either solo or with just my wife. For times I want to take along more than 1 other person, I could rent a 4 place airplane. The cost savings of building a 7 vs a 10 would pay for a lot of rental time on a 4 place plane. So it might be worth considering how often you REALLY believe you'll be filling more than 2 seats. I also realize that people don't build/own an RV because it's cheaper than renting and that the cost consideration is only a part of the equation.
 
I know this is an RV forum, but it's also an aviation forum, and I want most of all for dworley to fly, and going straight to an RV-10 on his income is one of the least efficient ways to do it.

I recommend you just go buy a nice but older Cessna 182. Here is why:

1. They are 1/3 the price. You can pick one up for $60-70k if you shop around. Depending on experience the cost of ownership should be less given much reduced insurance costs.

2. You can have it today and start your flying adventures. Aviation is limited by time and money. Building an RV-10 requires lots of BOTH. A 182 requires much less money and NO time.

3. If you get bigger tires for it you can totally go camping in off airport strips with it. Off airport camping is AMAZING, and while the RV-10 is an amazing airplane, it's not amazing or even decent at that. Can't do this with an RV-10 https://www.youtube.com/user/motoadve

4. If you leave the wheel pants on it, and stick with small tires, they go reasonably fast. Nowhere near RV-10 fast, but I bet you could get 135kts out of one. For medium to long cross country flights the RV-10 is certainly a lot faster, but the question for you is given your mission and budget constraints, is it $100k faster?

If you want to stick to experimental there are other airplanes out there, but none will have the speed and kit quality of an RV-10, on the flip side, the RV-10 goes fast between long paved airports, and in my opinion there is so much more to aviation than that.


EDIT: I would totally build an RV, just do it after the family mission is taken care of...
 
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You have received a lot of good replies already. I especially like most of Kyle's.

My take is that especially if you have kids in the future (and how couldn't you, with a girlfriend who sounds as nice as yours), that you should not compromise and get a 2 seater. Our family income was less than yours when I was building our RV-10. The only thing we had maybe in better shape is that we drove old cars that cost very little and didn't buy any new cars until well after we had a flying RV-10. We basically did a complete shutdown of any wasteful spending, and dedicated everything to the RV-10. I finished it with less than $1000 in my bank account, but everything paid for. My advice is to not start building until you have 1/3 of the money saved up. But at that point, you have enough cash to pound a lot of rivets. As you build, try not to waste money and time on other things. Stay focused and enjoy the build. If you save hard, and trim all of your expenses, you may be able to save fast enough to keep up with the build. If you're like me, you NEED a little pressure in order to save. I waste more when I'm not under pressure to save.

Also, resist the urge to have the most filled panel, and plan to do your own paint. Maybe even some interior. My RV-10 isn't the nicest one out there, but I'll tell you what, it's one of the very few that's been to 49 states and 5 countries after it was finished. You can't fly paint. That's a saying I heard a lot back in the 2003-2005 years. An economical RV-10 can have a pretty nice panel these days. Don't do any other trimming add-ons that are all cosmetic in the interior. Van's builds a great kit, and if you build it mostly per-plans, you will have a very nice flying plane that will make you happy.

With that, if you really have the passion, and so does your girlfriend, the chance to build an RV-10 and fly it with your family can absolutely be a life changing experience. If you build a 2 seat RV, you're cutting a lot of possibilities out of your life. Flash forward 16 or so years now since I started building my RV-10: I have 2 RV's, a -14A and a -10. If I had to sell one, the RV-14 would be gone in a heartbeat. The -10 is a fantastic machine. I can load it up as a 4 seater and have great trips, or could fill 2 seats and take basically all my favorite possessions with me for an extended trip. The -10 cruises on only a very tiny bit more fuel than my RV-14 does, at the same speed. Pound for pound, no other RV can beat the cruise economy that the RV-10 will give you. My only regret is that Van's never designed a 6 seater. (That's half joking, but if they ever did, it would sell)

If you can hold off on ANY airplane until you save 1/3 to 1/2 of the build cost, you will be very safe building the RV-10. If not, buy a <$40,000 plane to play with, but you're going to have a LOT harder time saving money to finish your kit. Maybe to keep current, just budget a couple/few thousand per year to fly a rental. I myself used to budget $10,000/yr just to fly my RV-10 around, and that was after insurance and other costs. Anyway, the fastest way to completing and enjoying the right plane, which it sounds like for you is the RV-10, is to buckle down and save and cut back on everything for a while. The reward is the plane, and the experiences that go along with it. Patience is NOT something I had when I started to build, but it's something that building the plane actually helped me develop.

I agree with the others who said their biggest regret was not doing it sooner.
I started when my kids were about 2 & 4, or 3 & 5. This year is/was my last year having a kid in the house. Time absolutely flies and is precious, so if you plan to have a family, you are far better off getting this project well underway and completed a.s.a.p. so that they can enjoy it. If I had waited until they were 10 & 12, I would have missed almost all of my favorite trips. Many of your families adventures will end once your kids hit about 12. Other things start to crowd your time. So to get the most out of it, you need it ready to go when they are still young.

Good luck to you, and I wish you as much fun as I had, and more, with your RV-10 if you begin it.
 
Incredible honest responses!

Absolutely amazing the responses to this post.

I will try mine.

These things take time and MONEY period! If you have a GF or wife who is behind it and likes to help then it becomes a family affair and fun to work with each other - a life experience that is hard to just buy!

I am building the RV 7 and many of my kit parts were bought when the Canadian dollar was at par. That being said and having a used engine with 300 Cert. hours on it left, panel that was scrounged off the forum and internet VFR Dynon totally it has cost me around 65 Canadian and over 9 years to build. It should fly this year but I still work out of town so i dont get the build time.

An RV 10 has a 54K dollar engine in it and the kit is lots more. This is ok if you are ok with it taking 10 years to build as the household income you share would take a beating if you try to do it sooner than that. Would that be something to think about? Building something cheaper, faster and getting into the air?

One poster mentioned being depressed with time passing and no airplane to fly still building it, this is true, very true so be sure you could overcome that as i have had mine ready to be advertised a few times when i get demotivated for a few weeks.

Sound like you have the support(GF), moderate income and some of lifes necessaries out of the way so order up and build on..... but it is EXPENSIVE in both TIME and MONEY and alot of plane if you fly alone or as two.

Good luck

Dave
 
...and

another thing...

I am 6.5 years into my build, 2200 hours invested, and not flying yet.

I made the commitment to NEVER put the project before family; I haven't missed a soccer game, band concert, or any family obligations in those 6.5 years. Consequently, it is taking longer to finish the build.

Tim is correct. Time literally flies by. It seems like yesterday I was putting my daughter on the bus for kindergarten...now she is finishing her Masters and getting married. It goes SCARY fast.

No-one can tell you what will be best for you but if you have a significant other, make darn sure she is on board with the time and financial commitments BEFORE you start...and be realistic with those estimates.
 
I started building my -9 the week before I met my wife. We were older but not old enough because a year after it started flying she told me she was pregnant, which wasn't in either of our plans.

For five years he flew in the baggage compartment but for the past five years he has been my traveling companion while Mom stays home and relaxes on Saturdays.

Here's the thing, your salaries will go up and once the plane is finished, they really aren't that expensive to maintain and other than insurance, the yearly operating costs are fairly close.

Start on the -10 and keep your eyes open for deals on rebuildable Engines, props etc.
The panel can start out as a bassic VFR panel and you can upgrade later, if needed.

The key is to start
 
Really?

?...Here's the thing, your salaries will go up and once the plane is finished...?

Oh, I got a great laugh out of that one...

How then, do you explain a 52% paycut, loss of a pension, and ten YEARS of job stagnation?...and I was one of the lucky ones...

Probably best not to make sweeping generalizations...
 
A little more info

I've read all the responses and will chime in with some thoughts that, hopefully, will help you. I've built two RV-7's. The second one will fly in the next couple of months. Both were purchased as "projects in progress." Why?? Very common scenario. Most can cough up enough to get the airframe kits. Where the hitch comes in is buying the engine and avionics. With these you have to come up with a big chunk of change at one time. Usually $30-50K twice!! And, you can't really get loans for these. RV 10's projects don't come up often but I'll bet this is why when they do.

Tim Olson had a similar response to what I was going to say. I highly recommend not going into debt to do a plane project. You become slave to the lender and all the stress that entails.

The dream can become reality with some sacrifices, lots of them. 1) dump the car payment(s). Sell the cars and get cheap car. 2) Get rid of any other debt other than the mortgage. It is amazing how much money you have when you aren't paying it out to somebody else. 3) As Dave Ramsey would say, "don't see the inside of a restaurant unless you are working there." 4) Cut all other unnecessary expenses. 5) Sell all other stuff you aren't using. It won't be much but it all adds up.

As Tim mentioned. Save at least 1/3-1/2 of the money. Get your kits in sequence. During the build, you won't be spending much money. Save intently during the build. Keep a stash of money available and watch for avionics to come up for sale that will work in your panel. With disciplined saving, you can save enough for the engine over a couple to 3 years. Then do the same with the panel. Or reverse that and get your avionics first. The engine can be one of the last things.

Make your dream happen. Make the sacrifices. Your plane will be much faster if it isn't dragging the banner of debt behind it when you are done.
 
Be realistic

Lots of good info but let?s be realistic...

Even a fixer upper io540 for the rv-10 is going to be $25k+, a runout core is worth $12k...doing the math yields a necessary savings of at least $700 a month for three full years to achieve that relatively low number. That is pretty substantial. Although you typically won?t be spending on large items during the build, you will still be spending...and you have heard of ?death by a thousand cuts?, right? Ask around and see how much everyone has spent on shipping alone!

Yes, there are many different ways to make your dream happen, just don?t be unrealistic when estimating the various costs lest you find yourself cash strapped , and time constrained. This can and does lead to frustration and the potential to liquidate that dream. Just ask the guys who have acquired a ?project in progress? plane. How do you think those deals come about?
 
I decided long ago that paying interest on anything that depreciates in value, sometime quickly, like a car, boat, motorcycle, isn?t very smart if there?s a way to avoid it. Getting rid of debt that does you no good financially, can free up money for other things that can make your life better if you now have some cash to make it happen. I?ve never regretted buying a used car. The amount of money that has saved me has helped me to pay for airplane kit parts. I drive my used pickup truck to the airport to fly my NEW AIRPLANE!! There are people that can afford to have it all, but most of us can?t and have to make choices. Do your due diligence on the overall cost of building/owning/flying an RV10. It ranks up there pretty high on the scale of first world problems. Good luck with your choice. I think you?re on the right track, especially with a future wife(?) that is on your side.
 
?...Here's the thing, your salaries will go up and once the plane is finished...?

Oh, I got a great laugh out of that one...

How then, do you explain a 52% paycut, loss of a pension, and ten YEARS of job stagnation?...and I was one of the lucky ones...

Probably best not to make sweeping generalizations...

I think we work at the same place. I was one of the unlucky ones (twice!).

Chris
 
>>the RV-10 goes fast between long paved airports, and in my opinion there is so much more to aviation than that.<<

I used to fly dirt strips for a living. I’ve got hundreds of hours in both 182’s and my RV10 and fly routinely to a lot of short unpaved strips in the Southwest and Baja, and there is no place that I would take a 182, that I wouldn’t rather have the 10. In addition to much higher speed, it carries more weight off of any strip earlier and over the obstacle higher. I do have larger tires and wheel pants set higher than normal.

Some random thoughts on the OP.

The -10 is an incredible airplane.

I was at OSH, parked in HBC, with a dude with his checkbook on the wing asking how I spelled my name to buy my -10 for 100k more than I had invested in it (not counting labor). I turned him down, but thought about it.

Aviation is inherently expensive.

Non wealthy aviators are the essential heart, soul, and lifeblood of experimental aviation. They are mutually dependent upon each other.

Non wealthy aviators that get in over their head and can’t afford to properly build, maintain, and operate their craft are the bane of experimental aviation and can put the whole industry at risk.

Lots can make it happen just fine on a upper five figure income, some shouldn’t even consider it.

It’s all about priorities and common sense.
 
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I recommend you just go buy a nice but older Cessna 182. Here is why:

3. If you get bigger tires for it you can totally go camping in off airport strips with it. Off airport camping is AMAZING, and while the RV-10 is an amazing airplane, it's not amazing or even decent at that. Can't do this with an RV-10 https://www.youtube.com/user/motoadve

I wrestled with the 182 vs. RV-10 choice when I began my project, as flying into the backcountry was an important part of the mission. The -10 has turned out to be a great choice for my family.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=172687

But for a more impressive example, review this thread: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=384189&postcount=21
 
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woxofswa, aturner,

We must fly in different circles. I’m talking about sportsman stol kit and gar aero 29x10 on the mains and 8.50x6 on the nose and flying off airport on gravel bars, beaches, and anything somewhat flat, not grass or dirt dirt strips.

That said, the RV-10 looks more capable than than I though it was, I suppose it comes down to prop clearance and how much you trust the nose gear.

Anyway, not trying to take away from what it is, only pointing out that if flying the family around on a budget is the mission, there are much cheaper options.

If it were me I would get in the air now, and build a 7 later in life. And it wouldn’t be a 182, it would be a 180. Floats and skis are pretty fun.

Context: I live in AK. I much prefer a conventional gear airplane.
 
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Looks like you have even more good responses. I'm going to throw one more thing in on mine.


When you decide you're all in, and you're gonna build it, and you've saved up a good hunk so that you can finish the airframe and you've budgeted to be able to finish the project, hopefully without any loans, you're ready to start.

At that point there's one major thing you can do to help reduce the risk if you lose employment or have some other financial problem.... Finished the airplane.

You're at risk of perhaps losing some money if you are forced to sell an unfinished kit, but, should you complete the kit with good workmanship, you now have an asset that you didn't have before, that may actually be worth more than you paid for it. It will break your heart if you ever have to sell it, but, it is an asset that can be used in emergencies. Its liquidity is only limited by how quickly you need it sold.

I've always felt pretty good about owning working airplanes. They don't depreciate rapidly, and you can get out from under them if you have to. But you've got a little risk of losing some cash if you don't finish the plane.
 
I don't know what the stats are on Vans aircraft, but the word was that only 20% ever finished their Lancair kits. I scoffed at that number until I had been building for 15 years. Then I understood. I got my kit "90% complete" when life intervened and I quit my job and moved to a different state to build a house. After a 7 year hiatus I realized that my "almost finished" project in the basement was worth NOTHING unless I finished it. So I sucked it up and spent several more years finishing it up. Thirty years after the kit came out, I still think less than 50% of Lancair 235 kits have actually flown. The kits were cheap ($15,975), but didn't include engine, exhaust system, engine accessories, prop, tools, instruments, wiring, upholstery, or paint. A professional paint job on my plane would have cost more than the kit! (Yes, I painted it myself in my garage.)

If you decide to buy a kit, it's a long-term commitment, both financially and motivationally. It sounds like your wife is onboard (mine was/is), but some get jealous of "the other woman". I have heard of divorces. My advice: Keep your eyes wide open and understand what you're jumping into before writing checks.

I am very proud of building my own airplane, but it's like wetting your pants in a dark suit. It gives you a warm feeling but nobody notices. If part of the reason you want to build your own airplane is to impress your friends and neighbors, forget it. They don't care and will just think you're weird.
 
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Impressive

"... hopefully without any loans, you're ready to start..."

It is impressive when an EAB gets finished and flies.

I am more impressed, though, with anyone who can build a $150k+ airplane and do it without any loans. That is truly impressive!

Think about it; If you were to save $1000 dollars a month, it would take you 12.5 YEARS to save $150,000 (the price of an average RV-10)...

Don't get me wrong, it would be great to own it free and clear at the end. I just wonder how many folks can tag $1000 month consistently for 12.5 years. I know all of my cars are paid for (and have 200k+ miles on them), and I have very little outstanding debt...coming up with an extra grand a month would still be...challenging. Then you have that thing called life that happens. Perfect example: I was visiting family out of town this past weekend. Got home Monday night to find the house at 90 degrees. Called the HVAC guys who came out Tuesday morning...yep, AC it shot. They just got done installing the new unit...for $4600. Kind of puts a dent in the extra grand a month!:eek:
 
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