Competition Aerobatics - IAC

Hello everyone,

I have been encouraged by a few fellow RVers to post a quick impression of my first year competing in IAC. I can honestly say it has been overwhelmingly positive. Established IAC members are excited to see new competitors and there is always someone around to help or give advice should you ask for it. My RV-4 does not have inverted systems (yet) but I was still more than capable of completing both Primary and Sportsman Sequences, never getting above 5Gs, and usually not above 4Gs. There are a few unique challenges in competiting in an RV, but every airframe has its own advantages and challenges.

There is a large push right now in IAC to grow the ranks, and IAC knows that the RV community could be a part of that. I've had more than one officer in the IAC actively engage me on how to get more RVs in IAC, and they have been receptive to my suggestions.

I created a facebook page that covers my aerobatic adventures. If anyone would like to see my GoPro videos, including my competition runs, please visit (and "like"):

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hawg-Aviation/159037350969542

If anyone has questions or comments, or seeking advice on how to get started, please feel free to let me know. Have a great week everyone!

Cheers

Aerobatics in a RV-4

Exactly what I was looking for..

Thanks Patrick

Bruno
[email protected]

RVs and competition

GREAT facebook posting of your first year, and I would also like to echo Patric's impressions of IAC and competition. After 4 years and 8 contests, I've found the competitors at all levels welcome new members like family. The RVs may not be the best aircraft for serious aerobatics above Sportsman level, but they are the affordable tickets to participate and challenge yourself, and did I mention FUN!!!!!!
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
Lower Alabama

Bill,
Thanks for the kind words. Hope to find a way to meet you soon...the Barnards spoke very highly of you, and they took great care of me.

Cheers,

I met, and watched Patric at his first contest of the summer at Lamar, CO. I then followed his progress throughout his journey all the way to Nationals--it was inspiring to see through his videos and pics. I'm hoping to join him as a competitor next year in my RV7. Congrats brother.

Sweet

Ron,
For what it's worth, I'm pushing hard to make the primary a longer, but not harder, sequence. I think you'd agree a four figure sequence really isn't worth traveling for more than maybe once. I obviously don't have much push as a new guy, but I'm using the angle of one of the few new guys...
I can't wait to see you out there at competition, but I won't be parking my RV next to your's...that would be like trying to stand next to Brad Pitt.

Cheers,

Hawg Driver said:

For what it's worth, I'm pushing hard to make the primary a longer, but not harder, sequence.

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Once again I have missed/forgotten to think about sending in proposed rule changes until too late. Next year. I do think this year's Primary sequence was embarrassingly dumbed down and I'd like to see it changed. In the 2015 proposed rule changes, there was a proposed "replacement" Primary sequence, but it had a downwind spin after a turn, and a loop into the wind over the top - assuming 'B' form wind is intended. Not good energy management. It's nearly impossible for 7ECA / Stearman / Clipped Cub, etc. types to do actual round looping segments over the top into the wind if there is significant wind down the X-axis. Decent looking Immelmans are also very hard for these airplanes.

I really like the idea of upping the number of figures and making the sequence a bit more expansive. I think something like this below would flow nice and be very flyable by low performing airplanes - even those without inverted systems. Here, you can get as much smash as you want for the roll and loop, and the loop and half Cuban are downwind over the top. I don't think there's much significance in flying a 1-1/2 turn spin vs. the traditional 1-turn spin in Primary. Actually, less likely for hamfisted pilots to "crossover", since a big push is not required to get vertical after a 1-1/2 spin. But I don't think the crossover issue really needs too much consideration in this sport. No excuse for flying competition acro at any level without this type of spin training, or a competent safety pilot.

Eric

IAC19

We are having a competition in Morganton NC at the end of the month. any RV's interested please let us know...Ron Shrek is competing in Sportsman in his RV8 and we have a possible RV8A first timer in Primary

I like it

Eric,

I think you are on the right track with that proposal. My only concern is that a hammer might be tough for a no-kidding first timer. I would recommend changing the spin to a 1 1/4, to a comp 90, to a humpty, to a comp 180 which replaces the hammer. Can a cub/7EC carry enough airspeed through a comp 180 to still get the loop done???

I think this would give the lower perfomance guys the ability to get their airspeed up for the loop while still adding a meaningful figures to the sequence...but I've never tried to keep up an airspeed through a 180 turn with a cub. Thoughts?

Cheers,

Hawg Driver said:

My only concern is that a hammer might be tough for a no-kidding first timer. I would recommend changing the spin to a 1 1/4, to a comp 90, to a humpty, to a comp 180 which replaces the hammer. Can a cub/7EC carry enough airspeed through a comp 180 to still get the loop done??

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Patric, the hammer is a very basic aerobatic figure like any other - not hard to do, but requires skill and practice to do well. It's definitely a break from the "traditional" Primary category, but I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone wishing to participate in competition acro to be able to do a passable and safe hammer.

I would discourage the 1-1/4 spin and the turns. Turns eat up a lot of energy for low-performing airplanes, and are just not very exciting or challenging. They're usually put in place to aid in x-wind correction and point totals. Believe it or not, there was actually a slight bit of controversy a few years ago regarding whether 1-1/4 spins were suitable in Sportsman. I think they are, but the thing about 1-1/4 spins is that they require you to re-apply rudder AFTER the spin has stopped in order to yaw the airplane vertical. Some were concerned about secondary spins when beginner hamfists attempted these. Unlike 1 and 1-1/2 spins, the 1-1/4 spin leaves you with pitch AND yaw corrections to make as (or immediately after) the spin stops. I think these are just a little more complex than what belongs in Primary.

Interesting

I always enjoy reading other's take on challenges and difficulties of certain maneuvers because it always seems that each pilot/aircraft combo has it's own qualities.

I agree with your points about turns, they aren't exciting and they do eat energy. But while the hammer is just another maneuver, it is painstakingly difficult with a carburated engine and I don't know how many beginners are willing to do them knowing they'll lose engine power during the maneuver. If we assume everyone is going to have inverted systems then I agree, but IAC is making an effort to reduce the real entry fee (aircraft cost) to the events.

Personally, me and my RV-4 are in a much better position exiting the spin in a 1 1/4 spin than a single, but again every aircraft is different. I'll keep my eye on that in the future on my and others' flights. Regardless, I think maneuvers on the Y-axis are important in a beginners' sequence if we are to string +-8 figures together.

Thanks for the words

Cheers,

Come join us

Great to see another RV competing. The Air Capital Eagles are having our contest this weekend Oct 10-12 at the Newton Kansas airport (KEWK) come out and see what an aerobatic competition is about. We can use volunteers to help at the contest. You will meet great people, watch the airplanes, and if you help out you get fed and an event T-shirt.
Checkout our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/IACch119
Stop and say hello I will be flying the yellow and white -7 in sportsman ( easy to see no inverted fuel or oil leaves a 1/2 quart of oil on the belly every flight)
You can sign up to fly the contest at the IAC pre register page. Come fly the box last years French team chose to get ready for the worlds championship.
Hope to see you in Newton.
Dave Faust

Kansas7 said:

Great to see another RV competing. The Air Capital Eagles are having our contest this weekend Oct 10-12 at the Newton Kansas airport (KEWK) come out and see what an aerobatic competition is about. We can use volunteers to help at the contest. You will meet great people, watch the airplanes, and if you help out you get fed and an event T-shirt.
Checkout our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/IACch119
Stop and say hello I will be flying the yellow and white -7 in sportsman ( easy to see no inverted fuel or oil leaves a 1/2 quart of oil on the belly every flight)
You can sign up to fly the contest at the IAC pre register page. Come fly the box last years French team chose to get ready for the worlds championship.
Hope to see you in Newton.
Dave Faust

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Dave - is your RV carb or injected? Just curious how well your hammers and such do. Mine is carburated and it's quite the adventure.

inverted systems

The best of the mods I did with my RV-4 was to add inverted fuel and oil. In a contest, those mods are worth at least 5 percentage points improvement in the scores to achieve actual vertical lines and extend the inverted down 45 degree lines. One of the most "exciting" moments I had with a carburetor was when I went vertical in a hammer head and the engine quit cold halfway up. Without the prop turning at low speeds it's very difficult to force it off the vertical line and prevent a tail slide. For those thinking about joining the aerobatic fun, you can contact me or any IAC member and they can provide you the forms and links for a 6 month FREE trial membership. If you contact me, please use my and your regular e-mail addresses so I can use attachments.
Cheers,
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
lower AL

WillyEyeBall said:

The best of the mods I did with my RV-4 was to add inverted fuel and oil. In a contest, those mods are worth at least 5 percentage points improvement in the scores to achieve actual vertical lines and extend the inverted down 45 degree lines. One of the most "exciting" moments I had with a carburetor was when I went vertical in a hammer head and the engine quit cold halfway up. Without the prop turning at low speeds it's very difficult to force it off the vertical line and prevent a tail slide. For those thinking about joining the aerobatic fun, you can contact me or any IAC member and they can provide you the forms and links for a 6 month FREE trial membership. If you contact me, please use my and your regular e-mail addresses so I can use attachments.
Cheers,
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
lower AL

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While I'll continue to fight to keep the sportsman routine compatible with non-inverted equipped aircraft, my major project for the winter is adding inverted fuel and oil to my -4, for exactly the reasons you stated.

Hawg Driver said:

I always enjoy reading other's take on challenges and difficulties of certain maneuvers because it always seems that each pilot/aircraft combo has it's own qualities.

But while the hammer is just another maneuver, it is painstakingly difficult with a carburated engine and I don't know how many beginners are willing to do them knowing they'll lose engine power during the maneuver.

Cheers,

Click to expand...

I have a 7ECA and find hammers to be no issue at all. Slow rolls, and 1/2 Cubans however always kill my engine. If I had to choose, I'd do a hammer over a roll.

Plus a hammer is easier, IMO, for any airplane. Pull to vertical, kick over, stay vertical and pull out. A roll takes much more co-ordination, especially when the plane takes 6 seconds to do a roll when started at 120MPH. Halfway through the roll the engine dies and with all the drag from all the elevator needed to not drop out and all the rudder to not drop out in the 3/4 mark?. Without the engine pulling it is next to impossible to not drop out.

The only time I killed the engine in a hammer was when I was letting a guy fly from the back and at the kick he pulled back and kicked the rudder?. Yep, on our back and started to rotate? As a bonus, the engine died!

Nice

ssmdive said:

I have a 7ECA and find hammers to be no issue at all. Slow rolls, and 1/2 Cubans however always kill my engine. If I had to choose, I'd do a hammer over a roll.

Plus a hammer is easier, IMO, for any airplane. Pull to vertical, kick over, stay vertical and pull out. A roll takes much more co-ordination, especially when the plane takes 6 seconds to do a roll when started at 120MPH. Halfway through the roll the engine dies and with all the drag from all the elevator needed to not drop out and all the rudder to not drop out in the 3/4 mark?. Without the engine pulling it is next to impossible to not drop out.

The only time I killed the engine in a hammer was when I was letting a guy fly from the back and at the kick he pulled back and kicked the rudder?. Yep, on our back and started to rotate? As a bonus, the engine died!

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Yikes...nice snap out of the vertical...nice job recovering!

Interesting your take on hammers...my experience is close to Willy's with my carbureted -4...I have about two seconds on the vertical up line before the engine dies completely. Wait too long and your are doing everything you can to not tail slide the thing.

Take the engine concerns out of the scenario, and I agree that a well performed slow roll is more difficult than a hammer.

ssmdive said:

I have a 7ECA and find hammers to be no issue at all.

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But here's the question - have you had your vertical lines (and the hammer) in the Citabria critiqued? You may have been flying slightly positive up. Putting the bottom of that Citabria wing vertical with the horizon will not put the airplane truly vertical - you will be positive due to the airfoil and incidence. And each airplane setup is slightly different, so the behavior of one does not set any rules for other airplanes. If your engine didn't stumble at all up and down with a carb, it means you were likely not on the true zero lift axis up and down. This is another disadvantage of lack of fuel injection or pressure carbs - you may need to make slight adjustments to your vertical lines that will not help your score.

ssmdive said:

Plus a hammer is easier, IMO, for any airplane. Pull to vertical, kick over, stay vertical and pull out.

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Loops are braindead easy too - just pull the stick back. 'Easier' is different for different people. I see lots of folks struggle to master a really good hammer, but do decent rolls, and vice versa. The hammer is just like any other acro figure - easy to do, not so easy to do really well. You may find this out with good ground critiquing.

WillyEyeBall said:

The best of the mods I did with my RV-4 was to add inverted fuel and oil.
Cheers,
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
lower AL

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What did that entail? What engine did you modify?

thanks

Patric
My -7 is really an IFR machine pressed into aerobatic duty. The airplane does hammers pretty well, much better than the pilot. The were the best scoring maneuvers in the only contest I have flown. It is setup with a bone stock 200 hp C177RG motor IO360 with a non counterweighted CS prop. i lose oil pressure first, then the prop starts to runaway,and finally will sputter a bit but has never quit (yet). The stops on the prop are set really low to protect the engine (2400 static) I fly with 5 gallons in the left and 8-10 in the right feeding off that side.
Come on over to Newton this weekend and fly with us!!
Have fun Dave Faust.

I wish I could!!!

I wish I could make it to Kansas this weekend. But both my kids have big roles in the church production this weekend and I've already missed too many things this year.

I was curious if a stock injected engine fared any better than a carb...sounds like minimal to none. Thanks for your words.

Maybe I missed the point a bit in my reply, my injected engine pulls strong all thru a hammer or a sharks tooth. Only in an extended inverted maneuver after the prop is starting to runaway will it sputter and I have started to pull the power off by then anyway.
Dave

Kansas7 said:

Maybe I missed the point a bit in my reply, my injected engine pulls strong all thru a hammer or a sharks tooth. Only in an extended inverted maneuver after the prop is starting to runaway will it sputter and I have started to pull the power off by then anyway.
Dave

Click to expand...

No, I probably misread it. That makes more sense as compared to somethings I've heard elsewhere. I hope you have a great contest this weekend - fly well, fly safe.


Cheers