Trim Issue

Below is a note that Tim Olsen posted on his site. Thanks Tim as always. I hate to have everyone call Ray Allen but I also want people to be aware since I feel this is a safety issue. I have had my elevator trim stick on my RV-10 a couple of times and thought it was the motor. I was very impressed at Gary at Ray Allen who filled both Tim and I in on the issues he has been dealing with. I was very happy to know that it wasn't the motor but rather the relay which possibly saved me alot of money and time. This isn't just an RV-10 issue either, could effect others and also may never. On my trim, if it does stick, I have to go in the opposite direction first which helps break it free. I will be installing my REL-2 tomorrow and I will let you know if it ever comes back. Looks like it occurs around 200 hours. I had about 190 when it started.


Tim Olsen's Note:

I have an interesting new problem that has crept up with my trim.
I was comparing notes at OSH with Scott and he's having the same issue,
and both of us have only had the problem for less than 2 weeks or so.

The issue is, you may be trimming your plane nose up or down, and when
you stop trimming in one direction, it won't operate in the opposite.
For instance, I overshot on nose down trim, but then it wouldn't let
me trim it back nose up. It happened once the week before OSH, and
I got it to release by adding more nose down trim, and then doing the
nose up. The downside to this is that if it stays stuck, you're now
even MORE nose down trimmed. It happened again on the way to OSH, and
then it happened during the show and I had to land with lots of
pressure pulling back on the stick.

Scott got to Ray Allen's booth first and discussed it with them and
I followed afterwards and had the same discussion. They said that
the REL-1 is now replaced with the REL-2 which is more heavy duty, but
that the REL-1 had operated for years with no issues, until recently.
Within the last couple years, the REL-1's have been produced as
RoHS compliant, (lead free) and now they're seeing them come back
with issues. They gave both of us replacements free, as we were both
experiencing the same problem. For a photo of these relays,
check these 2 links. The first one is the original relay, and the
second is the new one.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/rel1.php
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/servoRelayDeck.php

I'll be replacing mine in the next day or so, but thought it
good to give a heads-up on this. It will probably be something that
you run into if you have the REL-1 and got it within the last
couple years.

Also, rapping on the relay does get it to release...I tried that
today. So, it's physically sticking inside. Normally, the relay
grounds both wires to the trim servo when not active, and I think
from what they told me that the sticking is actually the result
of it not completing it's previous trim operation fully, returning
to that ground-ground postion.

Here is some additional info on the relays from Ray Allen.

http://www.rayallencompany.com/RACmedia/instructionsREL.pdf
http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/accessories.html

Tim - 260 hours and counting

Good write-up on a well-known (but never well-explained) problem Scott! I had this happen last year and wrote about it - that's when I discovered that many other people had the identical problem with the relays. At the time, Ray Allen was a little less forthcoming with the information as a a "known problem", but they did replace the relay for no charge. I suspect that they finally got enough back to figure out what was going on!

Paul

Ditto here. My REL 1 went TU after about 85 hrs. Ray Allen replaced with another REL 1 for no charge and suggested that the unit needed to be bundled into a wire bundle to reduce direct airframe vibration (????). I wonder how long my second unit will last??

Thanks for sharing the info---I may be asking them for the new unit.

Cheers,

db

What about the Ray Allen LED's, any issues there?

I hope this post was not redundant. I should have done some searching on this site but initially I never thought it was the relay because I could hear the relay working.

I do know of another RV-10 builder that replaced his REL-1 with another REL-1 and had the problem occur again.

Here is the same write-up and post on Tim?s site with pictures of the REL-1 and REL-2.

I have been fighting this issue now for 30 hours of flying and I'm looking forward to having it work flawlessly now.

Here is another question? Have you had issues with the Ray Allen LED's? I have two that initially were intermittent and now completely don't work. My aileron LED's work perfect but my flap and elevator trim LED's don't. I have pulled everything apart and checked power, continuity, everything?. It all looks good. I thought it may have been the flap sensor but since they both don?t work I suspect the LED?s themselves are bad.
You guys had any problems?

LED's

Yes Scott, I had one of those go bad as well. It worked fine during the time I was building, and failed on my just before Phase 1. It was my roll indicator, and I just flew without it for awhile before changing it out. Ray Allen said that they never had problems with them, and I would have to buy a new one and pay for it, return the old one, and then they'd credit me. I didn't really want to pull my panel twice, so I flew that way until the relay failed,. and then did a "two-fer"....I think I ended up paying half price for the indicator, and never got around to returning the old one.

My indicator was intermittent - there was a loose connection somewhere inside, and you could get it to work by wiggling the wires "just so", but it rarely worked when installed. The replacement has been fine, as is the pitch indicator.

Thanks for bringing the topic back up - it seems that they have taken notice and produced a new version of the relay - now, do I do a preventive change out, or wait to see how long the current ones last....

Paul

I think I'm going to do a preventative replacement of the relay in mine even though I haven't had a problem yet (25hrs.). I was there the day that Dave's died in Llano. That didn't look like much fun.

Scott S and Paul----yep--now that you bring it up my LED also went intermittant at about 50 hrs. Sent it back and they said it had a loose internal connection which was repaired---no problems since.

Scott C. I made the bad relay situation worse prior to the flight back from Llano--if you remember I pulled the fuse (because the defective relay only allowed the trim to work in one direction) and manually adjusted the trim tab to be in trail with the elevator for the flight back to San Antonio----dumb mistake!! After taking off and climbing to 5.5K I leveled off, set my power, and was having to hold a LOT of forward stick pressure just to stay level at my normal cruise. I then remembered that at normal cruise my ele counter wt was up by about 5/8 inch--which also meant that the trim tab must have been up in level flight (I have since shimmed my hs to correct this). It was amazing how much forward stick pressure was required to the extent that I had pulled the power back to around 17"mp by the time we got to SAT just to keep my shoulder from expiring!

Having relived this---I'm with you--I think I will do a pre-emptive strike and replace the relay with the newer and hopefully more robust unit.

Cheers,

db

Just a note since y'all got the info on the relays already, but I can fill you in on my LED issue...

I had the normal LED indicator get flaky and 99% dead. At OSH they told me I could send it in, and they could fix it. I decided it wasn't worth sending it because if they can fix it, so can I. I opened it up and found a suspect
solder joint and touched it up a bit, and now it's back working well. Just
4 screws on the back, so if you have a nice fine tipped solder iron, you may as well at least inspect it.

Tim

Scott, thanks for bring this up. I'm getting a problem with my trim, but I actually never thought to suspect the relay!! I just assumed it was clearly my amateur wiring job - maybe not. I have the REL-1 and the symptoms sound similar to the other guys'. My wife is going to troubleshoot and see if that's it.

Thanks for the lead,

Combination speed controller and relay deck

Has anybody had problems with the the combination speed controller and relay deck unit (Vans Part Number = ES MK-111)? So far I have about 130 hours and have no issues but seem to be in the window when the REL-1 has been showing problems.

Phillip,

I have both the speed controller and the REL-1 and have had zero problems with the speed controller. However, I had to replace the relay at 85 hrs.

Cheers,

db

Update - REL-2 and LED Repair

I just wanted to update you on a couple of things I did at the hanger last night. First, I installed the REL-2 and obviously it works great. Hopefully the problem is fixed. Second, I pulled out my two LED indicators that were not working and played with them until the light came on. On both indicators the same wire appeared to be soldered very poorly. The connection that wasn't working was hooked to another wire on the printed cuircut board so I just put a larger dab of solder connecting them both and they work great. Tim said he did the same thing (which gave me the confidence to try). I'm sure when they were manufactured there must have been an issue with that one connection. I wish I took a picture of it but if yours doesn't work and you want to give it a shot, just start playing with the backside of the PCB until the light comes back on. It was pretty easy to find and fix.

Scott/Tim,

So for those of use that haven't installed the LEDs yet, would you recommend a little pre-emptive soldering?

I suspect that may void any warranties.......

bob

That's a good question, Bob. I don't know that I'd try to encourage everyone to open them up and preemptively solder them, but really, they are very easy to open, and if you have a good fine-tipped iron, you could probably check it, and ensure that it looks good, and nobody would be the wiser...saving your worry about the warranty. It isn't a big deal to do after you have it flying either, as long as the indicator is easily pulled and hung out the front of the panel. It's one of the more minor things to deal with.

Tim

TimO said:

That's a good question, Bob. I don't know that I'd try to encourage everyone to open them up and preemptively solder them, but really, they are very easy to open, and if you have a good fine-tipped iron, you could probably check it, and ensure that it looks good, and nobody would be the wiser...saving your worry about the warranty. It isn't a big deal to do after you have it flying either, as long as the indicator is easily pulled and hung out the front of the panel. It's one of the more minor things to deal with.

Tim

Click to expand...

As an ancillary note. The most common failure on the LED indicators is that ground stap that they solder on. If you can run your finger or finger nail over all the LED segments and it start working, then take it out, take it apart and resolder all the tails on the LED's where they touch or contact the ground strap (just a cut off resistor lead soldered to all the LEDS).

I've had to fix 2 of them this way and know of 3rd that I need to rescue from a fellow Lancair builders airplane and fix it.

TimO said:

That's a good question, Bob. I don't know that I'd try to encourage everyone to open them up and preemptively solder them, but really, they are very easy to open, and if you have a good fine-tipped iron, you could probably check it, and ensure that it looks good, and nobody would be the wiser...saving your worry about the warranty. It isn't a big deal to do after you have it flying either, as long as the indicator is easily pulled and hung out the front of the panel. It's one of the more minor things to deal with.

Tim

Click to expand...

I'll put this on my to do list for when the wx gets colder this winter. My first career was a maintenance engineer in a studio in Nashville, so I've got a nice set of tools for working on electronics. I've got two indicators to check.

Forget the LED and use the indicator on the DYNON............or GRT/Chelton/AFS if they have the capability. Save the panel space for useful stuff.............like more expensive avionic toys........


DEAN 805HL

Another REL-1 Failure

Chalk up another failure for the REL-1 relay. Some exact failure mode as described above and in other threads here on VAF. My elevator would trim one way, but not the other unless I tried the 'working' direction again. This happened at about 180 hours.

I called RAC and they said they would replace my REL-1s with REL-2s for half price. They say that have ZERO reported failures of the REL-2 relays. I decided to go ahead and replace both since I have a pretty good feeling the aileron trim will do the same thing.

If I build another airplane I will not install trim on the passenger stick (just PTT). Too much complication for little gain. If you just have trim on the pilot's stick there is no need for relays. I've carried countless passengers and those trim buttons may have been pressed two or three times max.

An interesting note about these failures: In every case I have read about this happened in the elevator trim and not the aileron trim. I suppose this is just because the elevator trim is used more? It's interesting none-the-less.

I think a bunch of us have gone a totally different direction with the Trim safe system...this is the best and easiest way to wire your trim. Plus it has great safety features.

http://www.tcwtech.com/Aviation Products.htm

updated link

Here's an updated link that goes directly to the Safety-Trim web page.

http://www.tcwtech.com/Safety-Trim-Page.htm



Thanks,
Bob Newman
TCW Technologies