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Just read a discouraging statistic

SkyFlorida

Active Member
I read that only 1 out of 15 people who order kits actually finish their planes. I knew it was a challenging project, but that was surprising.

I'm getting ready to order my empennage kit this week and I would love to hear from you about the reasons people quit. From the collective wisdom here, what can I do to make sure I stay on the good side of that number?

I'd like to be proactive in preventing a problem.
 
You may not get a accurate response, as I would guess the majority of those who do not finish are not reding this forum.

But my guess is life and money are at the top of the list
 
I read that only 1 out of 15 people who order kits actually finish their planes. I knew it was a challenging project, but that was surprising.

I'm getting ready to order my empennage kit this week and I would love to hear from you about the reasons people quit. From the collective wisdom here, what can I do to make sure I stay on the good side of that number?

I'd like to be proactive in preventing a problem.

The 1 out of 15 stat probably needs to be qualified. Does this include all manufacturers of kits, and over what period of time? The newest kits from Vans are far more refined than kits produced 15 years ago. And Vans support community is second to none.

Having said that, there are indeed reasons why even new projects are abandoned. Your query may prompt an interesting discussion. Yes, building an airplane is a challenging project, and some builders are not up to the time and emotional commitment necessary.
 
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That number seems a little low to me. As I recall years ago, the general accepted figure was about 10% of project starts ever flew, and that was back when plans-built were the most common. I'm sure someone at Van's knows better, but I'd bet that Van's completions are 40-50% if not higher. But that's just my guess.
 
My speculation is that there are three reasons, there may be more.
  1. Financial - Lost job, didn't forecast how to pay for subsequent kits, divorce, unexpected life events, etc.
  2. Time Commitment - Jumped without understanding that most the RVs are going to take multiple years if you can put in 20 hours per week. Like #1, unexpected life events get in the way.
  3. Medical - lost their medical during the build
 
Why not concentrate on the reasons people finish? Concentrating on the negative seems self defeating to me. :confused:

An accomplished builder told me to make a trip to the shop every day weather you work on anything or not. Read the plans, clean up, put things away, sharpen tools, organize stuff if only for 10 mins. Have a routine, turn the radio or TV on, bring in a cup of coffee or can of Monster. ;)

The building of an airplane is the accomplishment of 1,000 small projects. Looking at the entire project can be overwhelming. Looking at a deburring project (as an example) doable in half an hour breaks it down into small bites.
 
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That number seems a little low to me. As I recall years ago, the general accepted figure was about 10% of project starts ever flew, and that was back when plans-built were the most common. I'm sure someone at Van's knows better, but I'd bet that Van's completions are 40-50% if not higher. But that's just my guess.

I found the number in one of the articles here on VansAirForce. It was undated so perhaps its changed.
 
My speculation is that there are three reasons, there may be more.
  1. Financial - Lost job, didn't forecast how to pay for subsequent kits, divorce, unexpected life events, etc.
  2. Time Commitment - Jumped without understanding that most the RVs are going to take multiple years if you can put in 20 hours per week. Like #1, unexpected life events get in the way.
  3. Medical - lost their medical during the build

As I turn down the homestretch of a 4 yr build...I think this list is pretty spot on. For me personally...two things stood out that I wasnt entirely prepared for. #1, the 'extra' add on costs outside of the kit and the major components...shipping/registration/items that you overlooked/hardware/wiring supplies/FWF stuff/the high cost of aviation grade parts/etc. And #2, the time and effort it takes...it will alter your life, be prepared to give up most of your free time for several years, you have to have a lot of determination to get through the trying days of a long build.

Although it is a grind, its not all bad, it has changed who I am...and has quickly become the one thing in my life I am most proud of. Good luck with your journey.
 
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My speculation is that there are three reasons, there may be more.
  1. Financial - Lost job, didn't forecast how to pay for subsequent kits, divorce, unexpected life events, etc.
  2. Time Commitment - Jumped without understanding that most the RVs are going to take multiple years if you can put in 20 hours per week. Like #1, unexpected life events get in the way.
  3. Medical - lost their medical during the build


That's probably pretty close. The first two are probably quite related to just getting in over the builder's head in a project that ended up being much more complex than expected. (BTW, that's my fear.)
 
I am a buyer not a builder but I am finishing a panel upgrade. An interesting and unexpected thing occurred in the project. I started to procrastinate because things were not going as well as I had planned. My "vision" was being compromised by my execution.

I suspect there are builders who find themselves in the same boat. The project looks doable but once they get into it, they find it is not all that they hoped it would be.

Unless the builder is able to truly forgive and forget, then all the little compromises will add up to defeat.
 
One in Fifteen seems low to me too ...

Like so many things today, it depends on how you figure it. If that statistic is based on the number of tail kits sold vs RVs flying, then 1 in 15 may be accurate. In my way of looking at it, purchasing just a tail kit and deciding you don't want to go any further is really a "try it out" thing, not truly a non-completed or abandoned aircraft project.
 
Unless the builder is able to truly forgive and forget, then all the little compromises will add up to defeat.

This principle applies on a personal level as well. One of the sort of personal-development things I had to work out as I got through the empennage was my tendency to really be bothered by mistakes I made. I'd foul something up, then spend time beating myself up over it, maybe even quitting for the night out of frustration. If it was particularly bad, I might even take a few days before I wanted to work on the thing again.

Basically, I took failure very, very personally, so instead of moving forward, working out a fix, and doing it, I wasted time sulking, wondering if I was really up to this project, blah blah blah.

I still have that tendency, but I've got it far more under control now than I used to. I think it was when I was skinning the horizontal that I just sort of noticed that my attitude had changed. I'd buggered up a rivet, the kind of thing that might have once sent me to the depths of self-pity...but in this case, I just circled it with a Sharpie and moved on down the line. Then I came back, drilled it out, and enlarged the hole. But again instead of bellyaching about it, I just drill #30, set an oops rivet, and moved on.

I've found that this project has taught me things about myself. It's helped me recognize personality flaws that have affected the way I dealt with people for years. I knew I'd learn lots of things over the course of this build, but I never expected it to become a personal development exercise.
 
Irrelevant statistics?

Hi,

I always tell people who show an interest in building not to start unless..

1. They really enjoy building and all the problems they with have to deal with.
2. They are single or have a very understanding partner.
3. They can put in at least 10 hours a week, preferably 20.
4. They have deep pockets...... building will probably cost you more than buying a good used RV.
5. They have the tenacity of an English Bulldog and wont give up the fight no matter what happens.

I think most of the quitters are just that..... people who do not have that tenacity. Of course life changes do play a big part but I have gone through two divorces, lost houses but have always kept my project!!

If you are someone who wants to fly..... then buy flying!!
 
Slow and steady will get the job done. I set my goal for 5 years from start to flying. I'm in about 3.5 years now and working on the firewall forward. The initial kits go pretty quick because they are mostly complete and there isn't a whole lot of customization. I'm finding that on the firewall forward stuff, everything can be customized and that will really slow you down if you let it. Stay focused and don't get distracted. Set yourself a mission for the airplane and stick to it. Make a decision early on of what engine you are going to use fuel injection vs. carb, fixed pitch vs. constant speed prop, avionics glass vs. steam, tip-up vs. slider, etc. and stick to your decisions. Otherwise the second guessing and redecision making will kill your momentum and you will never fininsh. As others have said, make sure you have the money up front to complete the kits and order the next ones. I have also really enjoyed the build process and it is quite fulfilling personally to see something so wonderful come together at your sweat and persistance.
 
Slow and steady will get the job done. .

Absolutely. But the emphasis must be on steady. Early on in my build, I read some advice that said, "do something on the project every day, regardless how small". Turns out that was crucial in getting my 6.5 yr project done. Even if you just do a tiny task, it keeps your head in the game and keeps you thinking ahead to next steps.
A mentor told me many years ago that success in business is about "staying committed and always maneuvering as necessary". Methinks that's good advice for building airplanes too. :)
 
I'm not too sure this adds much -

When I was building, I pretty quickly learned not to try and schedule anything. Airplane construction happens in its own time and trying to push it along results in mistakes and having to do it over again.

So, instead, I'd just go to the hangar with a specific task (or maybe a couple) in mind (having thought it through, read the instructions and studied the plans, etc.). When that was done, I packed it up and left. Then prepared for the next task. No particular schedule in mind - but the direction was always forward.

It helped that I enjoyed building the airplane and was much more comfortable bumping along at a controlled pace instead of trying to make the "schedule."

Just like they say - one day, there were no parts left! Time to fly.

Dan
 
As I am a bit older than most, I have seen my share of starts, with some finishes and some abandoned projects. Retired, I can work full time on mine and financing it was not a problem.
I set no "goals" or "schedules" for my project, but intended to thoroughly enjoy the build process, which I have. An easy project like an RV12 can be done in maybe 500 hours if desired, I have been at it a few days past two years now, and still have lots to go, much slower than most, but probably enjoying it more than most..
 
My first project

I quit the first project becuse the new wife and child's needs trumped the project. It took some time before I could start again. My commitment is $100 a week, and as much time in the shop as life's commitments allow. I'm three months into the wings, with the right wing about ready to bang together.
The money issue in my house was resolved by setting aside my "allowance" It's mine and I can do whatever I want with it. My wife works part time for her money, I support the family.
My thought is, the time and money will pass, what am I going to do with it?
 
A Discouraging Statistic? I don't think so...

I have a pilot friend who built an RV-4 empennage with his Dad. When I learned he was an RV builder, I asked if he had started the wings. He answered, "No, and I don't intend to." Puzzled, I asked, "Why?"

"Because my father and I built the empennage kit together and I have it hanging on my shop wall. You see, he worked for Douglas Aircraft in southern California for 25 years beginning in World War II. Just having an airplane part that he and I built together means more to me than completing the RV-4. That empennage more than satisfies my need to have something to remember him by. He died in 1995."

While building and flying an airplane you built yourself is a tremendously satisfying thing to accomplish, it's not what everyone gets out of this hobby.

"It's not right. It's not wrong. It's just different." quoted from Dr. Jerry and Lynn Jones
 
Been There...

Ahh Yes... The Aluminum Mistress has been known to cause some issues. This is a very long commitment and really truly a love for the builder. And did I mention also very addicting! YMMV. :D

And my Ex-wife wanted me to quit flying. :eek: Not
 
stacking the odds.....

so, anyone know if there is data that would help a guy decide how to make the best choice?

obviously, we are HERE because of Doug, Van and VAF, all of which contributes greatly to the completion rate, I'm sure.

I'd like to see this:

https://picasaweb.google.com/payare...hkey=Gv1sRgCLernY67uIvyGQ#5854540677226144978

...a graph showing which kits lead to the highest number of successful completions!

( anyone able to embed my crude graphic - appreciated!)
 
I bought a -7 kit in 2011, sold it all last month, and went in on a partnership in a really nice -6 at my local airport. My reasons for selling the kit and buying an already completed airplane are:

1. Time. Although I'm a pretty hands on guy and love to build things, I also fly for a living and generally gone 2 weeks a month. I also have three kids ages 13, 11, and 6. Coming home from a trip and spending night after night in the garage didn't seem all that fair to them or my wife. Throw in the kid's tournament baseball and basketball games and the few weekends I have home are shot.

2. To get flying quicker. My kids are in middle and elementary school. Realizing that the build was going to take a minimum of 5-7 years with my schedule, I wanted to share the joy of flight with them while they're still young and want to hang out with me. For the short time I've owned the airplane, the bonding moments between the boys and I while flying are priceless and forever memorable. Nothing like your six year old waking you up at 5:30AM already dressed asking me to check the weather on the iPad so we can go flying.

3. Money. While I planned on spending between 80-100K on the -7 and budgeted appropriately over the course of the build, did it really make sense to shell out that kind of cash knowing full well that money could be put in the college fund for the kids?

For the price of a decent car, I'm flying now and splitting the cost of maintenance and hangar space. I'm having a blast, making great memories with my kids, meeting great people, and rediscovering what made me so passionate about aviation to begin with.

Will I ever build again? I have no doubt. It was way too much fun not too. I'll get back in the shop when there are no more baseball games to attend, no homework to finish, no fights to break up, or when the little guy who begs me for a ride at 5:30AM doesn't want to fly with me anymore. I sure hope the latter never happens!
 
Many years ago I read in an EAA article that about 15 percent of plans built airplanes were completed. People bought a plan and never completed it.

With kits, like the RV's, the completion rate is much higher because the build is easier, the airplanes fly great, and they cost more.

Do not let anything deter your desire to build and fly one of these wonderful machines. We are fortunate to have the opportunity in an ever changing world, there may come a time when that opportunity is no more.

Traditional builders scoff at "assembling" from a kit. That's because they would rather "build" than "fly". Nothing wrong with that.

Except for the -3 guys here, most are pilots who with varying degrees of patience and skill manage to assemble the parts and successfully fly an RV.

None regret it, go for it!!
 
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I can understand why so many builders don't make it - even the ones that get to 80% completion. At that point the instruction from Vans are pretty much nonexistent and people that are used to following the directions exactly are suddenly left with no clear path. At that point they panic and decide this is more than they can handle and put it up for sale.

Wiring a panel can be a formidable task - as can the FWF and cowl work. People that are not used to thinking for themselves and picking their own way will be lost when they get there.
 
Definition of Tenacity

Early on in my build, I read some advice that said, "do something on the project every day, regardless how small". Turns out that was crucial in getting my 6.5 yr project done. Even if you just do a tiny task, it keeps your head in the game and keeps you thinking ahead to next steps.
A mentor told me many years ago that success in business is about "staying committed and always maneuvering as necessary". Methinks that's good advice for building airplanes too. :)

This, to me is perhaps some of the best advice to significantly increase the probability of final completion of the project. Researching topics on this site (THANK YOU DR!), reading ahead in the plans, or just thoroughly examining all of the minor details in one of the DWGs, are all things that I do when I am not actively working on the metal. In fact, I am spending time doing all these things right now while the snow falls and the temperatures drop.

My guiding principals for completing this project stem largely from advice my father gave to me a very long time ago. He taught me how to have a dream, devise a plan to achieve it, and then execute the plan by setting goals. He also taught me that if you never lose sight of the dream, everything else that may stand in your way will eventually resolve itself.

Or, in the words of Sgt. Tom ?Gunny? Highway in the movie Heartbreak Ridge:
? You have to adapt and overcome!?

Have I had some major interruptions to my project? Absolutely.
Will there be more? Probably
Am I ever going to throw in the towel and give it up? Absolutely not.
 
Staying on the right side of the number

To your question "...what can I do to make sure I stay on the good side of that number?" I suggest defining your goals in advance, and sticking to them.

Lots of folks have provided tips on a successful build, i.e. do something every day, allocate dollars and time, weigh impact on family, determine the configuration in advance, etc.

If you have not, I suggest you decide if you want to be able to say "I built my airplane" or "I fly my airplane." That answer will make some decisions moot.

Congratulations, by the way - you have the ability and opportunity to make these choices!
 
so, anyone know if there is data that would help a guy decide how to make the best choice?

obviously, we are HERE because of Doug, Van and VAF, all of which contributes greatly to the completion rate, I'm sure.

I'd like to see this:

https://picasaweb.google.com/payare...hkey=Gv1sRgCLernY67uIvyGQ#5854540677226144978

...a graph showing which kits lead to the highest number of successful completions!

( anyone able to embed my crude graphic - appreciated!)

The highest number of successful completions is the 6/6A. What you probably want judging from your question is the highest percentage of completions, or perhaps the highest percentage of completions by the original purchaser of the kit. That is hard to judge unless you define what that means past just an empenage.
I suspect the RV12 will come out on top for kits actually bought and completed by the original purchaser, but that is just a guess.
 
I wonder how many potential builders really do full in-depth research BEFORE they take the plunge.

There might be a higher completion rate if builders put in at least a year (more is better) of research on all the detailed construction techniques and money requirements before they commit to a 4 - 7 year project. Maybe even take an A&P class or two at the local tech school or junior college just to understand the real scope of work and techniques needed.

From a personal perspective, I've done months of research and have made some important connections in preparations. I still have another year to 18 months of research and training BEFORE I take the dive. I want to be on the good side of those numbers if I do take the dive.
 
What is the drop out % of people that start flight training but never finish up. It takes a great bit of self discipline to actually finish such a project like building a RV. I take my hat off to each one of you that has accomplished this task !! I finished my rv7A in less than a year with some expert help. I have never done anything that was so challenging and fun at the same time !!
Dan Peeler
RV7 A
 
Vans' data ...

A year or two ago here in VAF, someone relayed data from Vans on the number of tail kits they had sold, by model type. If starting a tail kit is how you define a build project, that could be related to the number of flying RVs by model type. But another variable is SB vs QB ... I suspect that is very pertinent to completion rate.
 
Build time!!!!!

My project was an RV3b started January 12th, 2002 and my first flight was September 23rd, 2012.
It would have gone much quicker but I did not have much money so I built it as I could afford it. I don't even have an aircraft engine because of the cost but that part perhaps added at least one year or more to the build time because of all the custom parts I had to make or have someone else make. I even made my own motor mount. I decided that I wanted fuel injection so I had to learn how that works. Programable injection controllers are expensive but I found a fuel injection kit that you put together yourself called Megasquirt II that cost only 250 dollars. It was winter time anyway and I did not want to go out in the cold garage, "I live in Minnesota" and work so I bought the injection kit and read all the directions and soldered each part to the circuit board. Then I had to learn how to program the thing. Then I decided I wanted to turbo charge my engine, oh boy more learning... After much reading I purchased a used turbo on e-bay and then purchased new parts to re-build it.
I had to purchase a 3 blade adjustable propeller to I could load the engine at any RPM so I could program the injection computer. After much testing and many ideas that did not work which can seem quite daunting and depressing at times. I remember times that I would go to bed at night so frustrated because I did not have the foggiest idea on how to make a part so I turned to God and prayed before I fell asleep. In the morning when I woke I knew how to make the part, this happened several times so for those that do not believe in God it may take even longer to build their plane, or it may never get done.
I am still working out issues after each flight. Sometimes I spend several days working on things after just a one hour flight. But most of my issues have to do with the experimental engine setup. I have a Corvair engine with a CJ5 Jeep starter wound backwards, a Harley Davidson starter ring gear mounted just over the harmonic balancer, a Ford throttle body, a Ford Thurnderbird Garet T3 turbocharger, Megasquirt II injection computer, Ford Mustang injectors, copper water pipe "homemade fuel rail", and many other custom parts all which must be tested. The DAR inspector sure liked looking at it. Then gave me a stern warning not to fly over any people, houses, etc... except for take off or landing.
It has been alot of fun and learning to build the RV3b aircraft. I would not advise most people to build an aircraft because of the time it takes to build and the patience that is needed. It took me just over 3000 hours to get to the first flight and since then about another 100 working out issues.
One of the reasons I wanted to complete it is to lead my children by example on how to complete a project.
 
My project was an RV3b started January 12th, 2002 and my first flight was September 23rd, 2012.
It would have gone much quicker but I did not have much money so I built it as I could afford it. I don't even have an aircraft engine because of the cost but that part perhaps added at least one year or more to the build time because of all the custom parts I had to make or have someone else make. I even made my own motor mount. I decided that I wanted fuel injection so I had to learn how that works. Programable injection controllers are expensive but I found a fuel injection kit that you put together yourself called Megasquirt II that cost only 250 dollars. It was winter time anyway and I did not want to go out in the cold garage, "I live in Minnesota" and work so I bought the injection kit and read all the directions and soldered each part to the circuit board. Then I had to learn how to program the thing. Then I decided I wanted to turbo charge my engine, oh boy more learning... After much reading I purchased a used turbo on e-bay and then purchased new parts to re-build it.
I had to purchase a 3 blade adjustable propeller to I could load the engine at any RPM so I could program the injection computer. After much testing and many ideas that did not work which can seem quite daunting and depressing at times. I remember times that I would go to bed at night so frustrated because I did not have the foggiest idea on how to make a part so I turned to God and prayed before I fell asleep. In the morning when I woke I knew how to make the part, this happened several times so for those that do not believe in God it may take even longer to build their plane, or it may never get done.
I am still working out issues after each flight. Sometimes I spend several days working on things after just a one hour flight. But most of my issues have to do with the experimental engine setup. I have a Corvair engine with a CJ5 Jeep starter wound backwards, a Harley Davidson starter ring gear mounted just over the harmonic balancer, a Ford throttle body, a Ford Thurnderbird Garet T3 turbocharger, Megasquirt II injection computer, Ford Mustang injectors, copper water pipe "homemade fuel rail", and many other custom parts all which must be tested. The DAR inspector sure liked looking at it. Then gave me a stern warning not to fly over any people, houses, etc... except for take off or landing.
It has been alot of fun and learning to build the RV3b aircraft. I would not advise most people to build an aircraft because of the time it takes to build and the patience that is needed. It took me just over 3000 hours to get to the first flight and since then about another 100 working out issues.
One of the reasons I wanted to complete it is to lead my children by example on how to complete a project.

WOW!!!! Good for you!!
 
I'm not sure how many others who have abandoned projects have continued on to own RV's by acquisition rather than building... But i'm one of them.

I bought my -7 tail kit with a 5 year plan like most people... I ordered and received it the same year the -7 was announced. At the time, I had stable work, with a flexible schedule that allowed me to work on the airplane a couple of hours a day without affecting my home life. Unfortunately, that job ended shortly after I started building. My next job wasn't that flexible, so my available working time was cut, and I spent a couple of years trying to fit useful blocks of time into other parts of my schedule so I could keep working on it.

Unfortunately, I wasn't all that successful. I was very active in two flying clubs, doing home renovations, riding motorcycles, learning a new job, etc. Then the time was right to move from a condo into a real house, and that led to new renovations. When I hit the 10 year point, I re-evaluated the market, and quickly realized that the economic downturn in the US had really driven prices of finished RV's through the floor... So I started looking at what was available.

In the end, I bought a flying RV that is exactly what I needed, for half (or less) what it would have cost to build the same airplane new. I couldn't deny that the economics made a *heck* of a lot more sense. As much as I wanted to build my own airplane from start to finish, I really preferred *having* an airplane that I could fly *now*. Keep in mind, that I was 10 years after starting the build at this point... By the original plan, I was already 5 years behind in my RV flying time... :)

Tweety was basic VFR when I bought it, and i've been upgrading her on a shoestring budget ever since. What's interesting is that I'm finding that I enjoy the "modifying" process as much as I enjoyed the "building" process while I was working on the tail kit. I can be a little disappointed with myself for not finishing the plane I started, but I think it's more than made up for by the enjoyment i'm getting out of the plane I have.
 
What does it take to finish?
1. enjoyment of the build process. If spending an evening building an airworthy bracket is not satisfying to you, you will not finish;
2. if your only goal is to have a flying aircraft (see 1.) you will eventually realize there are easier and cheaper and faster ways to get there and lose interest in the build;
3. life cooperating. Lack of money, financial reverses, relationships reverses can all delay but are not necessarily fatal to the build;
4. accepting that it will take as long as it takes. People can build these things in 6 months or over many years. It is all a matter of priorities (see 1.)

Bill Brooks
Ottawa Canada
RV-6A finishing
 
Very well said and very accurate!

What does it take to finish?
1. enjoyment of the build process. If spending an evening building an airworthy bracket is not satisfying to you, you will not finish;
2. if your only goal is to have a flying aircraft (see 1.) you will eventually realize there are easier and cheaper and faster ways to get there and lose interest in the build;
3. life cooperating. Lack of money, financial reverses, relationships reverses can all delay but are not necessarily fatal to the build;
4. accepting that it will take as long as it takes. People can build these things in 6 months or over many years. It is all a matter of priorities (see 1.)

Bill Brooks
Ottawa Canada
RV-6A finishing
 
Okay, I've been reading through the posts all day and appreciate the input. Nothing really radical, but a lot of great confirmation and insight.

Empennage was ordered five minutes ago.

Cheers.
 
Welcome aboard !!!!

While we all want to see you finish your plane and fly it, if life gets in the way or you don't enjoy the build process, it's easy to bail out of a tail kit. Not a lot of investment and a great way to get your feet wet. If you've not done a Sportair workshop, I highly recommend it. You'll learn a ton of techniques and skills that will help you through the tougher parts of the build.

Again, welcome !!!!!!!!
 
...I started to procrastinate because things were not going as well as I had planned. My "vision" was being compromised by my execution...

...so I'm not the only one?

As with flying, some days you're just off - nothing goes right no matter how much you buckle down. When this happens, it takes the wind right out of my sails and I have to let the whole thing rest for a while. More often than not, the restart is a whole new ball game and you just motor right on through like nothing happened.
 
Finished?

You never really finish... I have built two airplanes, a Kitfox and Rv7 and flew both but there is always something more to do. I also restored a '56 Chevy and am doing a '54 Ford now. They too are never finished but if you do something every time you enter your shop, eventually you just get to the point where other people think you are finished :)
 
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