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  #51  
Old 06-10-2021, 12:43 PM
NewbRVator NewbRVator is offline
 
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Knowing HOW to do a turn back is probably just as important as knowing WHEN to do a turn back certainly not greater given in many if not most engine outs on takeoff straight ahead is probably preferred. BWTHDIK
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  #52  
Old 06-11-2021, 10:49 AM
jrs14855 jrs14855 is offline
 
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Default Turn Back

I try to read all the pertinent accident reports but I don't keep records. It seems like every few months there is an attempt by someone in a A36 Bonanza for example who tries to turn back from 100' or less. Also an "alternative engine" Lancair 4 a few years back same scenario. Obviously no preflight planning for "what if" in either case.
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  #53  
Old 06-11-2021, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by NewbRVator View Post
Knowing HOW to do a turn back is probably just as important as knowing WHEN to do a turn back certainly not greater given in many if not most engine outs on takeoff straight ahead is probably preferred. BWTHDIK
Knowing how and WHEN to use a turn back is very important. Using perfect technique won't help you if the airplane is simply incapable of doing what you're asking of it. Do we have the fortitude to be part way through a turn around and realize we've made the wrong decision and choose a off-field landing instead?

Maybe.

I have a friend with an SR22 who recently departed the Tuscon area for Socal (plan A). His IO550 suffered a catastrophic failure. Plan B: he headed toward a airfield within glide distance, but ATC told him there was a lot of glider activity in the area. Plan C was to pull the airframe parachute handle. It did not deploy. Tried it again, harder. No luck. So he proceeded to Plan D and landed on a dirt road. Of course he had the benefit of altitude, and therefore, time.

In multi-engine aircraft, a thorough takeoff briefing is always done prior to departure. Single engine pilots do not typically perform any kind of takeoff briefing -- I've often thought that might be a missed opportunity to mentally prepare for and rehearse what a low altitude emergency might look like and pre-determine a course of action based on the field length, obstacles, aircraft weight/performance, surrounding terrain, wind, traffic, and so on.

Gulfstream published a presentation a while back that iterated their viewpoint that there is no such thing as a "standard" briefing. The conditions of each takeoff are unique and have to be thoughtfully considered.

About 8 years ago I wrote an article on this topic, advocating takeoff briefings for single engine aircraft:

https://www.rapp.org/archives/2014/0...off-briefings/

--Ron
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  #54  
Old 06-11-2021, 11:51 AM
jrs14855 jrs14855 is offline
 
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Default a complete takeoff briefing

While this is theoretically true it does not always happen in the corporate world.
The young man who was in the right seat in the King Air 350 that crashed into the hangar at Dallas Addison was someone I had worked with and flown with.
This was a new operation, it may have been his first time with that Captain .No weight and balance, no checklists, no takeoff briefing, power lever friction not adjusted properly. Power rolled back to idle on one engine after rotation, pilot pushed the wrong rudder pedal, the airplane rolled inverted and crashed.
Auto feather either not working or not used. A "highly experienced Captain".
I of course will never know but I sincerely believe the copilot was told "sit on your hands and don't touch anything", just as was common in the airline DC3 era.
A pre takeoff briefing for a solo pilot in a single:
Below 100' in the event of an engine failure or loss of power I will land straight ahead. If a loss of power I will close the throttle. If it appears I will run off the end of the runway I will turn off the master switch, magnetos and fuel if time permits.
Above 100' I will consider a 90 degree turn if terrain or obstacles make that the best choice.
Above 300' I will consider a turn back to the runway if terrain or obstacles make that the best choice. All based on a relatively short runway.
FLY THE AIRPLANE. In my EAB I can turn off the mags, battery switch and fuel without diverting my focus from outside the airplane. Can You???
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  #55  
Old 06-11-2021, 01:26 PM
PhatRV PhatRV is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronrapp View Post

About 8 years ago I wrote an article on this topic, advocating takeoff briefings for single engine aircraft:

https://www.rapp.org/archives/2014/0...off-briefings/

--Ron
There has been at least one EAA safety webinar that recommended performing a pre-takeoff briefing, specifically for the engine out scenario at takeoff, even for a local flight. I don't know any basic flight training that teaches this, maybe except for the commercial/corporate/airline world
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  #56  
Old 06-11-2021, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhatRV View Post
There has been at least one EAA safety webinar that recommended performing a pre-takeoff briefing, specifically for the engine out scenario at takeoff, even for a local flight. I don't know any basic flight training that teaches this, maybe except for the commercial/corporate/airline world
Starting to appreciate my training a bit more. It's pretty settled science that getting important stuff into your "working memory" can greatly increase performance.
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  #57  
Old 06-11-2021, 04:49 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhatRV View Post
There has been at least one EAA safety webinar that recommended performing a pre-takeoff briefing, specifically for the engine out scenario at takeoff, even for a local flight. I don't know any basic flight training that teaches this, maybe except for the commercial/corporate/airline world
I can tell you that at the soaring school where I got my glider rating, failure to verbalize the pre-flight briefing before signaling the tow plane to go ensured that you’d have a 200’ rope brake, courtesy of the instructor in the back seat. I try to always verbalize my take-off emergency plan as I take the runway, in whatever I am flying. It just focuses me better.

Paul
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  #58  
Old 06-11-2021, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
I can tell you that at the soaring school where I got my glider rating, failure to verbalize the pre-flight briefing before signaling the tow plane to go ensured that you’d have a 200’ rope brake, courtesy of the instructor in the back seat.
Likewise at the FBO where I earned my commercial glider add-on. Seems to be pretty standard. I wonder why it never took hold with single engine aircraft.

--Ron
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  #59  
Old 07-20-2021, 03:12 PM
wawrzynskivp wawrzynskivp is offline
 
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Default Flight Test Data RV-7

Hello All,

Did some flight testing on this topic and here is what I found:

For RV-7, TU, Empty Weight 1286, Solo Configuration (max fuel), IO 390, MT 3 blade composite controllable at course pitch down to 80 MPH

Test runs conducted at best glide configuration engine out with mixture at fuel cutoff. Dive initiated to build speed to achieve a climb attitude at 120 MPH (my normal climb speed). Then a three second delayed response was held at climb attitude as airspeed bled. An unloaded roll to 45-50 degrees, then O/S AoA held at that AoB (1.7 G) for 270 degrees. An unloaded reversal to 45-50 degrees to the other side and another 90 degrees at O/S AoA.

This routine was repeated a few times flaps up, then done a few more times flaps at 10 degrees.

Altitude loss average 700' flaps up and 650' flaps 10 degrees.

Distance made good back to runway is approximately 900'

My distance travelled to reach 650' AGL that day was 7,900'


Takeaway:

Given a 7,000' runway 650' AGL is required for me to make it to the opposite threshold. I need to do some more math to figure out how the roughly 7:1 climb relates to the 11:1 glide to figure out the turn around altitude for runways shorter than 7000'

Of course there may be cleared field available, roads, etc. This exercise was to crunch numbers in actual no power conditions to see what is needed for the ideal recovery.

Last edited by wawrzynskivp : 07-20-2021 at 08:21 PM.
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  #60  
Old 07-20-2021, 03:30 PM
PhatRV PhatRV is offline
 
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Thanks for posting your test result. 1050ft AGL is at pattern altitude so it's not low at all. Do you recall the density altitude for your test? I wonder if it has a role in the turn back altitude
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