Home > VansAirForceForums

-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.

Go Back   VAF Forums > Avionics / Interiors / Fiberglass > Glass Cockpit
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-08-2021, 12:13 PM
00Dan 00Dan is online now
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 183

Originally Posted by Carl Froehlich View Post
The mini EFIS option is ok for a backup if you already have an integrated display. Running two mini EFIS drives you to cobbled together stuff for the much needed MFD.
Is having the MFD “all that?” Maybe I’m ignorant about this as I’ve never used one. I’ll admit part of me is looking at the cost of a Dynon or Garmin complete system and seeing it quickly become a substantial portion of the value of the plane.
Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 01:28 PM
RV10Pilot RV10Pilot is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Medford, NJ USA
Posts: 428

Yes, Avionics are a significant part of the cost of an airplane. Typical "rule" of thumb is the 1/3-1/3-1/3 One third of the cost is airframe, one third engine and one third avionics. It is usually close.

The smaller screens work fine as a flight instrument (PFD), but they are too small to be a practical moving map (MFD) Think iPhone vs iPad.

An electronic flight instrument system (EFIS) is a flight deck instrument display system that displays flight data electronically rather than electromechanically. An EFIS normally consists of a primary flight display (PFD), multi-function display (MFD), and an engine indicating and crew alerting system (EICAS) display.

The terminology is from back in the day when screens were smaller and they had dedicated functions. The PFD was in front of the pilot showing flight instruments, a MFD was to the side showing a moving map and then there was a seperate engine monitor or engine gauges. Now a day with larger glass, split screens, etc a single screen could be configured to show all the functions. Still the PFD is typically referred to as the screen in front of the pilot and the MFD is the screen to the side, but they could be configured lots of different way depending on what you want.

If you post a photo of your current panel I am sure you will get lots of opinions on how to phase into an IFR panel.
Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 01:41 PM
Carl Froehlich's Avatar
Carl Froehlich Carl Froehlich is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dogwood Airpark (VA42)
Posts: 3,048

The value of having everything integrated into the EFIS moving map (TIS, ADS-B traffic, weather, terrain and obstacles) is the order of magnitude leap it provides for situation awareness.

While I know people have flown all over down to minimums with a six pack and a VOR receiver, I consider the value of the integration provided by a real EFIS to many times outweigh the cost.

Get one EFIS, then when ready for IFR get a second EFIS and GPS navigator. No separate MFD would then be needed.

Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 03:25 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 7,562

Another advantage of a modern efis/mfd is engine monitoring. I know of quite a few pilots that failed to notice 0 amps on the ammeter, and flew until the battery died. That will never happen with a modern efis; as as soon as the voltage drops below the set point (like 13.8 volts) you’ll have flashing red lights in your face! With engine prices what they are, having good monitoring makes sense.
Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 06:24 PM
Scott Hersha Scott Hersha is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,878

For my panel upgrade on my RV4, I had similar priorities to yours. I didn’t want to price the airplane out of the market, but wanted a more modern panel that is upgradable. I ended up with a GRT Horizon 10.1, and Mini EFIS as a backup. This gave me the necessary flight instrumentation for IFR flight, but without an IFR approved navigator. This was a complete panel rebuild and was done for a little less than $10K. I already had a GRT EIS, so this made a difference on manufacturers for me. The least expensive IFR navigator for me is a VHF NAV receiver, like the VAL remote NAV receiver ($995). If I had that unit, or one like it, I could file IFR legally, fly enroute using VOR navigation, or GPS routing/direct using one of my 2 WAAS GPS EFIS systems - as long as I was in a ‘radar environement’ - basically everywhere, but I could only do a VHF NAV based approach (ILS, Back course, VOR). The GPS in my EFIS overlays the IFR approach, so it can be used for situational awareness only, not for IFR approaches. The cost of a good GPS/VHF NAV IFR approach certified navigator (like a Garmin 650) will easily double the cost of my instrument panel and for me, and it’s just not worth it - to me. But I have an airplane that is easily upgradable for IFR flight.

Click image for larger version

Name:	8DC4BFE9-DBA8-460B-BECA-403CCBF570D5.jpg
Views:	29
Size:	336.0 KB
ID:	12389

Upside down……. Nice. No idea how to prevent this anomaly……. Sorry
RV6/2001 built/sold 2005
RV8 Fastback/2008 built/sold 2015
RV4/bought 2016/sold/2017
RV8/2018 built/Sold(sadly)
RV4/bought 2019 Flying
RV6/Used kit purchased 2021 building
Cincinnati, OH/KHAO

Last edited by Scott Hersha : 06-08-2021 at 06:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 08:11 PM
TigerMan92's Avatar
TigerMan92 TigerMan92 is offline
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Howell, MI
Posts: 43
Default Same Situation

I am having the same discussions with all my RV friends. I have a great VFR panel but want to upgrade to an IFR panel.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Panel Right Cropped.jpg
Views:	19
Size:	240.1 KB
ID:	12390  
RV-7A, XIO-360, MT CS 3Blade, Slider
Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 10:19 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 7,562

Originally Posted by Scott Hersha View Post
I could file IFR legally, fly enroute using VOR navigation, or GPS routing/direct using one of my 2 WAAS GPS EFIS systems - as long as I was in a ‘radar environement’ - ….
Strictly speaking this is not correct. You cannot legally use the non-TSO’d gps for navigation under IFR. But you can call ATC and ask, ‘How about a radar vector direct Salt Lake on, like, heading 024?’ (Wink, wink).
Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2021, 08:31 AM
Canadian_JOY Canadian_JOY is offline
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,418

I started out with a GRT WS, upgraded it to an HS then to an HX. At the time of upgrade to the HX I added a Mini-X as well.

Fast forward to a dark night doing simulated instrument (hood) work. All of a sudden in a climbing turn the Mini-X and HX were showing a different attitude solution. NOT GOOD!

I was amazed by the speed with which I was able to cross-check secondary indications (rate of climb, skid-slip, airspeed, altitude) to determine it was the HX that had lost its marbles. Punched the "MAP" button on the HX to take the erroneous attitude indication away and continued the flight using the Mini-X.

Having experienced this attitude miscompare I opted to replace my dedicated engine monitor display with a Sport EX. This allows me to use that same real estate to show a third attitude reference as well as engine instruments.

I have mapping and terrain as well as synthetic vision on both the HX and Mini-X - this works very well.

My rule of thumb when flying is "don't touch the Mini-X"... it stays in PFD mode all the time. As a result I know I've always got that rock-solid backup available to me all the time, no matter what I might fudge up when pushing buttons elsewhere in the panel.
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:21 AM.

The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.