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Baffles with Pulled Rivets?

B

BD4Guy

Member
Is there any reason Van's baffle kit could not be assembled with pulled rivets?
Do the baffle stiffeners really need to be dimpled?
I won't be mounting my oil cooler on the baffles. My old, non-Van's baffles used pulled rivets exclusively. I'd rather not need to buy tools like a dimpler just to install baffles.

Thanks
 
With dimpled rivets the baffles sit flush against each other, and to the engine e.g. around the rocker box covers.

With Blind Rivets, one side or other of the rivet will rest against another baffle, or the engine. Not ideal I would suggest for the baffles longevity, the surfaces of the engine, or cooling :eek:
 
rivets

It's a sin to install a blind rivet when you have access to install a solid one. It also looks crappy.
 
Because blind rivets are better than duct tape.

There are thousands of planes flying around with blind rivets in their baffles including my 34 year old Varga...looks exactly like it did the day it was built.

As I said, it's a personal opinion.
 
vans

What do the plans say to use? Unless you are a engineer and have done a structural analysis I would stick to the plans. It's hardly a personal decision. Just because another manufacturer does it one way is irrelevant.
I have never seen a substitution document that allowed using a non structural blind rivet in place of a hard rivet.
What if at inspection the DAR wants documentation for deviating from the plans?
Exactly what are your credentials for offering advice?
 
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I was hoping there might be somebody who had used blind rivets , but if a builder has already driven thousands of hard rivets, a few more would not bother them. I was thinking that if I did not hang the oil cooler on the rear baffle, and I put a plenum over the engine, I wouldn't need so much strength. As far as aesthetics go, I can't see it from the cockpit. ;)
I thank everyone for their input, and hope nobody's feelings were hurt.
 
BD4 Guy, I suggest you give vans a call. The baffles are impprtant, but not structual. In many cases, vans uses solid rivets because they are cheaper, not besause the strength is required. However, you prbably want them to make that call. For an RV builder that already has the tools it makes sense, but it you don't already have the tools, blind rivets may be a viable alternative. Keep in mind, not all blind rivets are created equal.
 
paul mosher said:
It's a sin to install a blind rivet when you have access to install a solid one. It also looks crappy.
Click to expand...
Not at all.

I installed several hundred MK-319-BS rivets in my wings. Made installing the lower skin a heck of a lot easier and I didn't run the risk of having to drill out rivets I tried to buck solo but messed up.

If the builder is happy with the strength of a pulled rivet in a non-structural location - and lets face it, baffles are not structural - then there is nothing stopping him using them.
 
whatever you want

You can do whatever you want. The point I'm attempting to make is that when you deviate from the plans you should have some idea as to what is a valid substitute.
You can glue the wing skins on, Grumman used to do it, but that doesn't make it the correct thing to do.
A call to Vans would be a much better idea than seeking advice from the "experts" on this site.
Don't get me wrong there are some very knowledgeable people who post but there are also ones who don't have a clue and are willing to pipe up with advice.
 
"Exactly what are your credentials for offering advice?...from Paul Mosher"


I built an airplane, a Bushcaddy R-120...using blind rivets in 90 % of the structure. Many kit planes are built with blind rivets...check out the Zenith line.
 
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expert

Gee I guess following the plans for one airplane makes you a expert on all things aeronautical. I have worked in the airlines for 25 years on everything from overhaul, line service, sheet metal tech crew chief to avionics. Built the prototype XB47, started the production line at Eclipse jet (a blind fastener airplane) and literally wrote the SRM (structural repair manual) for the Gulfstream G280. Spent many years doing non routine structural repairs in conjunction with engineering.
Has this become a pissing contest?
 
the point

Is that those plans called out blind fasteners. In this case the plans call for hard rivets.
 
No...

The point is, that in an experimental aircraft, you are perfectly entitled and in many cases encouraged, to modify the aircraft to better suit your needs.

Just because the plans say use part X doesn't mean you cannot use part Y or it "is a sin" to use part Z. The -9 use designed to use a -320. I'm using a -340. Others use a -360. They are all acceptable engines, though they may not all be endorsed by Vans.

As for looking crappy, beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder anyway.

I'm not pitting my qualifications in aeronautical engineering against yours - I'd lose spectacularly - but, there is always more than one way to do something. It may not necessarily be "as good", but so long as it isn't unsafe, then there is nothing inherently wrong with taking the alternative route.
 
What do you hope to achieve?

BD4Guy said:
Is there any reason Van's baffle kit could not be assembled with pulled rivets?
Do the baffle stiffeners really need to be dimpled?
I won't be mounting my oil cooler on the baffles. My old, non-Van's baffles used pulled rivets exclusively. I'd rather not need to buy tools like a dimpler just to install baffles.

Thanks
Click to expand...

If it's just the tools that you are concerned about, you could always look for someone willing to lend you theirs. The actual dimpling and riveting of the baffles can be done in a single day if you've already fitted and match drilled them. Perhaps someone can lend you a little time in their shop or hangar when you are ready to dimple and rivet.

Skylor
RV-8
 
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seems that this thread is mostly about esthetics and ''purists'' ideals. certainly in some areas rivet choice matters but on a baffle? come on.
the plane i built didn't even have a plan for firewall forward. blind rivits and nutplates were used for the baffles and i don't think it will ever come apart, and if it does i won't fall out of the sky.
a flathead screw may not look as good as a phillips but it does the job.

and temporary duct tape does work on the baffles when you are done building and testing temps by plugging holes! surprising that head temps go over 300 but most places the duct tape didn't even get soft.
 
I won't engage in the firefight, but would say to the OP that if you'd rather avoid buying a dimpler, rivet gun, etc, you could probably get by in this case with a simple pop-rivet dimpling tool and maybe vise-grip dimplers, as well as a simple rivet squeezer. Altogether wouldn't cost that much, and you will probably find uses for them down the road when making repairs or modifications.
 
I guess I'll have to come clean. Even though I am a dues paying member of this website, I am not building an RV. I am replacing the tattered old baffles on my BD-4. I don't have much experience with rivets, nor do I have all the tools. What really stopped me in my tracks when reading the plans for these baffles was step 2, which says "Dimple the rivet holes in the doubler plates and corresponding holes in the cylinder 4 baffle. Rivet....flush head on the inboard side." Dimple a doubler plate? Is the space that tight?
As far as modifying the baffles... Don't they have to be cut down to fit the cowling?
If Van's just used rivets for commonality of parts used throughout the airplane, that makes sense. I'm not building an RV ( although I'd love to have an -8!) I'm not hanging an oil cooler on the baffles, and I am adding strength via a metal plenum cover.
Mr. Mosher, your credentials are impressive. Given that this is not for an RV, what blind, pulled or pop rivets would you recommend?

Thanks, everybody.
 
You will need to dimple for those rivets you mentioned, the inside of those areas are flat against the head so there is no clearance. So save buying multiple tools and rivets, you can use a 1/8" pop rivet dimpler and 1/8" rivets for those doubler instead of the 3/32 rivets called out.
 
cherrymax

Cherrymax. I save the ones that came with my rv for non aircraft uses.
I hope everyone appreciates us "purists" when they travel the airlines.
 
I'm in the process of doing the same thing. Have the rear and sides done and want to get them on before hanging the engine. Are you folks powder coating, single stage painting, alodining, or what? Tried alodine on some small pieces and it's very delicate, easy to damage. Maybe clear over it?
If color, what color?
Match the engine color metallic grey?
Match the engine mount white?
Clear?
Using black seal.
 
Towards the end of my project I alodined everything that got primed or painted.
Alodining alone is usually ugly so I used a single stage paint after alodine on the baffles. I went black to match the engine but a lighter color is much better for spotting oil leaks.
 
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