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Hartzell Mooney M20F 1977 help

Jamie Aust

Well Known Member
Hello All, Im in need of some help. I have a friend that has a CS prop from a mooney M20F that went in for repair, they filed the prop tips and now its out of spec for GA use ( ok for experimental )
The only number found are CH17980 and P59523,
A google and VAF search has not shown anything, so i hope someone here may be able to help. My engine is 0-360A1A, with CS crank, will it be ok ?
 
Personally I would not consider using a prop that does not meet it's type certificate (if it has one). Those limits are set for a reason.
That prop does not know what kind of aircraft it is mounted on.
Propellers are not something to mess around with.
 
CHxxxxx is hub serial and looks like it's non-suffixed so falls under that eddy-current recurring AD (100 hrs if I remember correctly). I think the other number is blade serial number. I think the prop should work on your plane, but it's IMHO not worth that much due to having a recurrent AD on it..
 
Thanks for the reply,
@ Mel, I understand what you are staying, this prop had about 1/2 inch removed from the tips, this was done at the prop shop, and has about 100+ hrs on it when it was found to now be out of spec ( length of blades )
So no im 50/50 on if I used even look at it.

Lets say he wants $1k for it, would anyone else go for it ?

@ Radomir, eddy-current recurring AD (100 hrs if I remember correctly)/ prop rpm limit not over 2350rpm, would I have to send it in for inspection, or can this be done by myself ?

I dont know if I want to spend $10K on an all new CS setup.
 
By the prop being shortened out of spec, it is entirely possible that harmonic response (vibration, and thus fatigue life/cracks) is appreciably affected. Without a comprehensive test program in which a number of props are tested to failure, there would be no way to tell whether this prop was suitable for use in its shortened condition.

Eddy current inspection, likewise, requires specialized (usually expensive) equipment and extensive operator training to perform. Not typically something one does in his shop at home.
 
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By the prop being shortened out of spec, it is entirely possible that harmonic response (vibration, and thus fatigue life/cracks) is appreciably affected. Without a comprehensive test program in which a number of props are tested to failure, there would be no way to tell whether this prop was suitable for use in its shortened condition.

Isn't the bolded part how they determined the limits in the first place?
 
Assuming this M20F has the same prop model as when delivered from Mooney, the FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) suggests it is either:

HC-C2YK-1 or HC-C2YR-1 hub, 7666-2 blades, or
HC-C2YK-1B hub, 7666A-2 blades

In both cases, the Mooney TCDS lists the minimum diameter as 72.5".

The prop TCDS has data for this prop on multiple engine models. For the O-360-A1A, it is approved with a minimum diameter of 72". Note that this is 0.5" less than the minimum diameter allowable on the Mooney.

Hartzell's TCDS lists the minimum diameter for this prop on the IO-360-A1A (i.e. the the Mooney's engine) as 72". I'm not sure why Mooney lists a larger minimum diameter than Hartzell, but I suspect it may be related to the performance claimed in the Flight Manual. The claimed performance would be degraded if the prop diameter was reduced, and Mooney may have determined that a 1.5" reduction of diameter (from the delivered 74") would eat up all the margin in their performance claims.

So, depending on the actual diameter, it is possible that it is no longer legal for use on the Mooney, but perfectly safe on your engine.

If the actual diameter was less than 72", this prop is scrap.
 
Over the years I've known of a couple Hartzells with cut-down props on RVs that came off Mooneys, never had any issues. I say go for it.

When I built my RV-6 I paid $1K for the prop, same deal but it was just above the minimum when reworked by the prop shop.
 
Isn't the bolded part how they determined the limits in the first place?

Exactly. What is unknown, unless someone is able to get their hands on the actual test reports submitted for FAA approval, is whether the shortened condition produced a failure, or whether a shortened condition was not tested at all.

Either way, the point is it would not be airworthy (with the word airworthy meaning nothing more than conformance to type design). An interesting point was brought up, though, about the prop manufacturer's limits being different from the aircraft manufacturer's limits. This could definitely mean good things for someone wishing to use the prop.
 
Without a comprehensive test program in which a number of props are tested to failure, there would be no way to tell whether this prop was suitable for use in its shortened condition.

Isn't the bolded part how they determined the limits in the first place?

No. A propeller vibration survey does not test to failure. They strain gauge the prop and look for operating conditions with large strains. Large strain = high vibration amplitude. It's just bending repeated many times per second.

...or whether a shortened condition was not tested at all.

Ahh, the conspiracy theory of forced propeller retirement ;)

Let's note a point about old props not yet considered.

First, aluminum has a memory. It remembers every fatigue cycle, and they add up. There is no knee in the S-N curve (strain vs cycles), so add up enough cycles and the aluminum will fracture. As the strains get larger the required number of cycles becomes less. It's like money in the bank. You can make a lot of little withdrawals or a few bigger ones, but eventually the account is empty.

Second, when a particular engine-propeller combination is certified with a prohibited operating range, it means the prop survey found large strains when run at that particular setting. Many of the prohibitions are "pass-through", i.e. you're not allowed run continuously within that range, but you can go up or down through it.

Here's the thing....as a subsequent operator, you have no way to know how often the prop was run through the prohibited range, or how quickly. You don't even know if the previous operators bothered to observe the prohibited range. Think it doesn't happen? Consider how many operators right here on VAF consider propeller vibration as something which can be dismissed.

So, there you are with an old prop. All you can do is a crack check, which only tells you it has not fractured yet. It does not tell you how many cycles remain until failure.

Me? I like to start with a full bank account.
 
I sent an Email to Hartzell, here is the reply.

The propeller S/N is CH17980. Based on the S/N, the prop that is installed is model HC-C2YK-1BF/F7666A-2. The blade S/N?s are D26826 and D26903 if still original to the propeller.

Regards,
Steve Reindel
Technical Representative

Now I question myself, do I have money still in the bank.... thanks DanH, I now wonder if I should ask them how they feel if I ran it as is. I would get it crack tested, but like Dan said, "So, there you are with an old prop. All you can do is a crack check, which only tells you it has not fractured yet. It does not tell you how many cycles remain until failure." :eek:
 
To each his own.

I my-self have seen what can happen to a prop that dose not match an engine. The prop and engine O.E.M.'s test the two as a unit. Those little gremlins that used to get to an aircraft in the old Twilights shows. They live for bad prop-engine put to-gathers. If what you are telling me is that this prop is now out of spec. You can use it at your risk, and it may work out but it is an unknown match. Things happen very fast at the speed of sound. Check those blade tips spun up to 2750 rpm., with the blades coned out and pulling hard. Then ask your self, How much reaction time do I have at those speeds.. Yours as always R.E.A. III #80888
 
props

I could be way off on this but its in the back of my mind that some shops can cold roll a blade.Would this give it new life.
Bob
 
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