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A Serious Threat to Homebuilding

Just wondering ...

I have not yet visited Vans Aircraft, but as far as I know, it's based at an airport. How is a factory based at an airport different from a hangar based an an airport? Or another building like a maintainence shop. The factory, the shop, and the hangar all spend time holding airplanes in various stages of readiness to fly.

Will Vans and other kit manufacturers need to move off airports because they have access to a federally funded runway and they are clearly not involved in the final stages of assembly?

Or how about the site where they buid the ready to fly RV-12?

And while I'm on the subject, are all certified aircraft completely manufactured except for final assembly at sites the do not have access to a federally funded runway? It would be a shame if this policy had to shut down a "real" aircraft manufacturer.
 
PAUL IS EXACTLY RIGHT

Guys,
I wrote Jack Pelton about this yesterday and he forwarded Doug McNair's response to Jack's inquisition. Doug was noticeably aggravated that AvWeb had called attention to this NPRM! This is our EAA! The EAA worked with the FAA on this rule and they flat dropped the ball. I urge all of you to actually read the entire NPRM! This can wipe out home building as we know it. It expressly prohibits construction of homebuilt aircraft! It describes Final Assembly as active Final Assembly To Fly. This does Not include any prior stage of construction. It means bolt the wings on, final adjustment, put fluids in and fly! At my airport our airport manager and airport board will interpret this literally and all the RV aircraft under construction will be dead. While a bit of this rule may be positive, the home built clause IS NOT! We must be contacting the EAA and the FAA in force or we will all suffer a devastating blow that literally could wipe out the homebuilding community. What possible difference could one of the "certificated" aircraft stored in hangars and virtually never flown be to a homebuilt that may take a few years to build and then typically will be flown regularly and often. There is just no reasonable basis for this construction clause. As it is written, just because you are constructing in your hangar with another of your aircraft it does NOT mean you are exempt - period. It reads that Construction of Homebuilt Aircraft with the exception of Final Assembly is Prohibited! This is a wake-up call folks and we need to get this corrected right now or the consequences will be catastrophic!
Brad
 
ONE MORE THING

I have been dealing with federal airport funding for some time and have headed our group of hangar owners to get hangars built at my airport. I can assure you that the FAA has a stranglehold on your airport if they have ever taken one dime from the government for any reason! Airports with grants in effect or that have accepted grants in the past are particularly affected. Typically whether it is a city, county, township, or whatever if they have directly or indirectly received funds for ANY reason they are subject to enforcement of this rule. The airport sponsor (manager or airport board) will be aggressively enforcing this rule especially if they have grants pending. While this ruling may open up some hangar space full of "non-aeronautical" items it will also open up hangar space due to homebuilts being removed. This is a bad ruling for homebuilders, make no mistake about it!
Brad
 
A few quick points ...

First, I think if everyone could take five and re-read posts 59 and 87, that would be good for the dialogue.

Second, there is much dialog offline about this issue.

Third, (for those questioning EAA), the EAA efforts actually moved the ball FORWARD. Not as far as we ALL want but forward. AND we realize that there is more moving to be done. And more energy is/will be applied.

It is the expressed opinion of those working directly with the FAA that this is not a hidden agenda to demise Amateur Built activities.

There is a real problem that people are attempting to sort out. The **draft** document is something that is shared in a manner that in fact gives us all the opportunity to further "enlighten" as to what we see are shortcomings.

Paul's posting helps make everyone aware and provides a means by which each of you can help "enlighten".

Glad to see the passion. But as someone has said here earlier, let's not go off on tangents and get "off point" here.

In my **personal** opinion, a small change in the wording of one sentence as a result of further "educating" or "enlightening", is what is needed to fix this AND solve the problem to which it is actually addressing.

And yes, again, EAA people are in fact continuing to work with FAA people to sort this out.

James
 
hangars

Any intelligent airport operator with a waiting list would build more hangars. You could secure long term legal commitments from that waiting list to cover or partially address the risk of building (sometimes local airport boards are wary of expansion.) And/or require the non-aircraft "storage" users to sign a LONG lease, might move them out to a mini-storage.

If you have airport management like Bismarck,ND you have to sign a lease that says the building belongs to the city after a very short time. Last I saw, it was something like 10 years. It is very difficult to recoup a hangar investment in 10 years.
 
When I wanted to start building an RV I found myself in the same situation that we all face, where do I build it. I happen to live in an area with very specific HOA CC&Rs that are pretty restrictive. In short, building in my garage was not going to happen. I placed my name on the waiting list for a hangar and eventually leased my hangar.

During my build I have spent three years either deployed, preparing to deploy or returning from deployment. During that period my kit, in various stages of completion, sat in my hangar (part of that time my now sold Cherokee shared the space.)

Under this new language I would not have been allowed to lease the hangar and I would not have become a builder. I just would not have had a location in which to build. That is probably true for anyone that lives in an apartment or condo or in a house with restrictive CC&Rs. Today, under strict interpretation of "final assembly", I would have to move with no where to move. Leasing commerical space is just too expensive. I am not looking for sympathy, just stating how things are.

If the FAA, and my airport, want to stop people from storing TVs, cars, furniture or whatever in a hangar; fine. But to eliminate many builders by poorly written rules in not the solution.

Just my too cents, I am sure others will disagree.

EDIT - My airport has made no mention of a requirement to move. In fact, I think I am at a pretty nice airport that is run by a great group of folks, But the airport has received FAA funding, so the FAA could cause a change by poorly written rules. It will affect me, and many others like me that would like to build an airplane. If the rule was in affect when I wanted to start my project, the airport would have been required to deny my lease.
 
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Service

When I wanted to start building an RV I found myself in the same situation that we all face, where do I build it. I happen to live in an area with very specific HOA CC&Rs that are pretty restrictive. In short, building in my garage was not going to happen. I placed my name on the waiting list for a hangar and eventually leased my hangar.

During my build I have spent three years either deployed, preparing to deploy or returning from deployment. During that period my kit, in various stages of completion, sat in my hangar (part of that time my now sold Cherokee shared the space.)

Under this new language I would not have been allowed to lease the hangar and I would not have become a builder. I just would not have had a location in which to build. That is probably true for anyone that lives in an apartment or condo or in a house with restrictive CC&Rs. Today, under strict interpretation of "final assembly", I would have to move with no where to move. Leasing commerical space is just too expensive. I am not looking for sympathy, just stating how things are.

If the FAA, and my airport, want to stop people from storing TVs, cars, furniture or whatever in a hangar; fine. But to eliminate many builders by poorly written rules in not the solution.

Just my too cents, I am sure others will disagree.

Now that would have been a disgrace. To boot a military service person out of a hangar while overseas serving. Pretty sad.
Thank you for your service.
 
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hangar

Well folks, I am the one who wrote the title of this thread - I'll take responsibility for that. If you are happy with this interpretation as written, then great - let the FAA know that. But remember that this will be used in the future in courts of law, where every word counts. As I said before, I am happy with the overall idea of this interpretation, but I am very concerned with this single paragraph:

While building an aircraft results in an aeronautical product, the FAA has not found all stages of the building process to be aeronautical for purposes of hangar use. A large part of the construction process can be and often is conducted off-airport. Only when the various components are assembled into a final functioning aircraft is access to the airfield necessary.

Put that in the Federal Record, and forevermore, homebuilding can be cited as not an aeronautical purpose for the use of a hangar. I can play devil's advocate to our cause and say that in order to be a functioning aircraft, it must have gas and oil in the tanks - until that point, it's not permitted on the airport. To someone trying to keep us off a field, that would be a good argument. Silly, of course....

Let's help them get ALL the words right so that we can make this truly helpful, and not leave pitfalls and traps that can catch us later.

EXACTLY!
While the proposed rule may be better than what was being interpreted before, you put that little phrase, "not found all stages of the building process to be aeronautical for purposes of hangar use." and I guarantee that there will be FAA and Airport manager folks that will interpret that to mean it can't be at the airport till it's airworthy! If it looks like an airplane or it's a part of an airplane or used to support an airplane in whatever level of assembly it is, it belongs in a hangar and should be considered an aeronautical activity. I do not consider this a win till ALL aeronautical activity is acceptable. We should not settle for anything less! These is our country, our taxes, our airplanes. It is our right to use a hangar on a federally funded airport to build our planes from the ground up as much as it is the right of a 172 owner to store their airplane.

PLEASE COMMENT!
 
SAHRENS IS RIGHT

You are exactly right. While we appreciate those working with the FAA on our behalf, we must make it known in no uncertain terms that prohibiting construction of homebuilts is NOT acceptable. How did this verbiage make it into this draft? I may seem to be an alarmist but failure to get this corrected could be too catastrophic for us to truly comprehend. We need to be commenting on this NPRM and to the EAA. It's our only hope. Where is this going to end? The FAA chips away at GA little by little until finally one day we'll wake up and it's gone.
 
How did this verbiage make it into this draft?

See Post # 40...connect the dots!

It is the expressed opinion of those working directly with the FAA that this is not a hidden agenda to demise Amateur Built activities.

With all due respect to the parties to whom you refer, the ACTIONS of individuals (and organizations) are much more reliable and revealing indicators of their true intentions (and character) than any words or statements. The FAA has demonstrated BY THEIR ACTIONS a consistent pattern of proposing and promulgating policies and rules that adversely impact EAB. A reasonable person would have to suspend disbelief to accept that there is no pernicious intent here!

I fully support the efforts by EAA and individual stakeholders to work with the FAA through the comment process in an effort to ?correct? the language in the current proposed rule regarding hangar usage. My concern is that in the absence of additional legislative action to cement into law certain rights and freedoms for EAB we will continue to fight subsequent battles with a regulatory authority that seeks our undoing, despite any benign public statements it makes to the contrary.
 
Avweb: 'Hangar Policy "Significant Win" For Homebuilders: EAA'

http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/eaa-news-and-aviation-news/eaa/2014-07-24-faa-releases-new-hangar-use-policy?utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=!Membership&utm_content=eHotline%3A+140724

Paul Dye: I think you overreacted in your initial post. Experimental/Amateur Built aircraft are not the only aircraft in the world. My experience is that of owning a flying aircraft kept under a shade hangar for over a decade while people have 3 different airplanes and projects in different moldering states in their hangars indefinitely because they're too lazy and undisciplined to finish their projects.

Meanwhile for 6 years I've kept at my own build project in the garage. True, not everyone has a convenient garage to work in, but must those builders take up valuable hangar space for years, while flying aircraft that simply cannot be kept off-airport are denied the protection of a hangar? Obviously the FAA thinks not, and I applaud them. I'll be commenting in favor of this clarification...and when I've done everything I can in my garage, I'll move the big pieces to the hangar I finally got at another airport and do final assembly there.
 
I can assure you that the FAA has a stranglehold on your airport if they have ever taken one dime from the government for any reason!

And thank god they do. That stranglehold prevented the University of California (Davis) from paving over KEDU 10 years ago. It continues to protect, for instance, Reid-Hillview in San Jose and the Santa Monica airport near Los Angeles, and no doubt hundreds of other airports. The issue is really quite simple: if you want complete control over your airport, get together with like-minded people and build your own. No, really.

I would guess 99% of public airports have accepted Federal funds (avgas taxes paying only a tiny fraction of airport cost) and thus come under Federal control, which is far more good than bad.
 
The current Avweb article indicates that the proposed rule would supersede an existing rule which specified zero tolerance for non-aviation hangar use. EAA therfore calls the proposed rule an improvement. Clearly the old rule was very rarely enforced and apparently little known since there hasn't been any uproar like this current one. Is there anything indicating the new rule is going to be enforced any more than the old one?
 
EAA REPLY TO ME

Doug McNair of the EAA wrote me a response to my concerns to him about this new policy. A summary follows: Law as it is currently prohibits entirely homebuilding in hangars on federally funded airports. This regulation has not been heavily enforced due largely to an agreement between the EAA and the FAA pending a final policy. There were a couple of court cases challenging this current policy and ultimately decisions were not beneficial but the FAA has remained anti-aggressive still pending a new "clarifying policy".

Doug was miffed because the AvWeb article stated that this new policy was worse than the current one which outright prohibits homebuilding. I bet this comes as a surprise to most of you, it was to me. The EAA applauds this new policy because it at least authorizes homebuilt "final assembly". Well, while a small improvement, it's far from ok and Doud agrees with that. Doug said that the EAA was given the draft just before Airventure so there had not been time to digest and make any input to the FAA thus far. He assures me that the EAA is highly engaged in this policy and that they will continue to try to have the policy language changed to allow "Active Homebuilt Construction" in hangars on federally funded airports.

Doug advises that we make every effort to bombard the FAA with comments on this to the NPRM. The EAA monitors these comments and my impression is they react based on the amount of comments made to the FAA. I urge you and everyone you know to get on the Internet and comment on this policy. Personally I believe that this policy may accept some language modification to include "Active Construction" with enough public support. This would preclude those who just end up storing a project and never actually working on it. I believe there should be a clause whereby in special circumstances such as military deployment or illness, etc. that would allow a protracted build time.

Doug urges us to be commenting in force to the FAA. Since final assembly is already in the new policy, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that the FAA might expand this homebuilt policy if there is enough input. Please make heavy reference that homebuilding Experimental aircraft is one our most essential "Aeronautical" uses of a hangar in this country! Hope this clears some things up.
Please start writing ASAP!
Thanks,
Brad
 
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ENFORCEMENT

Yes, it is assumed by the EAA as I understand it, that this policy will be viewed by the FAA as clarifying and thus enforceable. It's impossible to say for sure that enforcement will be more aggressive but since this new policy will be viewed as a final ruling it is reasonable to assume that enforcement at the local and federal level will accelerate unless we can get the language changed before this policy becomes law.....
Brad
 
The current Avweb article indicates that the proposed rule would supersede an existing rule which specified zero tolerance for non-aviation hangar use. EAA therfore calls the proposed rule an improvement. Clearly the old rule was very rarely enforced and apparently little known since there hasn't been any uproar like this current one. Is there anything indicating the new rule is going to be enforced any more than the old one?

That's part of my concern. The proposed rule might be better than the previous one, but now we're drawing a lot of attention to it, and it might make things worse for a lot of people.

My other concern is that, like Paul said, whatever gets put into the rules is what we're stuck with. And my reading of the rule says there's still too much room for interpretation, too much leeway for the FAA or an anti-experimental airport administrator to impose draconian policies, and not enough protection for homebuilders and aircraft owners.

"Final assembly" might mean that you have your airworthiness and only need to put all the fairings back on. Or it might mean you have 30 days from moving in to getting the airworthiness certificate. Yes, the latter has been the plan for my -7 all along due to a lack of conveniently-located airports (I grew up spoiled in that regard), but I don't believe that should have to be everyone's plan. It also rankles me that building an airplane isn't considered by the FAA to be an aviation-related activity--though I wonder if that could be turned around on them to force them out of some of the microscope-level oversight of every step of certified aircraft production?

The note about "temporary storage" for maintenance/restoration isn't clear enough, either. For example, a 30-day limit (which I could see someone trying to impose) would impact condition inspections, panel upgrades, engine overhauls, annuals (for owners of certified airplanes), major repairs, etc. There's also not enough protection for doing maintenance in the hangar. In my mind, there's an absolute right for aircraft owners to perform maintenance on their aircraft within the limits of the law (which I believe should be broader) and the bounds of safety/fire prevention. This ought to be codified.

Finally, I'm concerned about the "incidental items" protections, especially the "insignificant amount of hangar space" line. Once again, there's a lot of room in there for someone in power to clamp down on anything past a desk, chair, and towbar. This one hits home, since I was fortunate enough to spend my teens and early 20s around a certain large group of RV builders/owners. At the time, they had a large hangar with several aircraft (including ours) parked in it, some being built and some having flown for years. They also had a snack/rest area, community workbenches and part storage, a couple of old bikes, and a bunch of tables and chairs that were used to host various cookouts and other events. A lot of this extra "stuff" would probably be considered "non-aviation related", and took up more than "an insigificant amount of hangar space", though it never crowded out an airplane. But I'd say that the atmosphere fostered by this hangar and all its contents ("aviation-related" or not), where someone was usually around if you needed another set of hands, where young bucks like me could fly with and learn from guys who probably had more time in the air than I had on my own two feet, where everybody was welcomed instead of getting a cold shoulder, probably brought more business and more flying to that airport than any amount of bureaucratic rule-following or draconian, antiseptic, 5S-style hangar contents restrictions.

Yes, if someone is storing imported widgets in the hangar or running office space there instead of housing airplanes, by all means, kick them out if airplanes or airplane projects are waiting. And I generally understand if someone with an actively flying airplane is waiting on a hangar occupied by a homebuilt project that hasn't been touched in a year or two. But if there's enough demand for hangars from legitimate aviation-related activities (to include building!) then the solution should be to build more hangars, if there is any room to do so.
 
If it's not an airplane...

Most of the comments here object to possible prohibition of active kit projects on FAA-regulated airport property. I understand that.

But there's more.

In the hangar I am about to build, the plans include an 8?x17? efficiency-type office. If I am delayed by weather for 3-4 hours and want to take a quick nap before a 5-hour flight, a fold-down bed would be more conducive to rest than sitting at my desk with my head on a lousy printer. Rested pilots are safer pilots.

My refrigerator will hold enough beer (I don?t drink it) for a small cookout, and eventually I?ll know most every tenant on the field. That helps create an airport community and makes our field more secure. A community makes a safer airport.

And one would think that a fully-stocked toolroom would allow me to use the right tool to make the proper repair instead of fly now and fix it later. Proper and timely repairs make a safer aircraft.

Apparently, the FAA?s opinion is We haven't considered aviation safety, or airport safety, or aircraft safety, it it?s not an airplane, you can?t have it.
 
The EAA may see this as a step forward politically, but it seems pretty obvious that more homebuilders will be hurt by increased enforcement than will be helped by being 'allowed' to do final assembly at their hangar. So why would we consider it a win?

My question is why language about homebuilding is included in any of these rules to begin with. The problem supposedly being addressed is non-aviation uses such as as storage for cars, motorhomes, boats, etc. This problem can be completely take care of with proper enforcement of the rules. I don't think that there are enough EAB projects sitting unloved in hangars to require government action. And to suggest that EAB projects are non-aeronautical in nature is absurd, even by FAA standards.

Write a rule with teeth to specifically address cars, boats, motorhomes, trailers, and furniture storage, and 90% of the problem is solved. THAT would be a step forward.

A more cynical person might suggest that maybe completely solving problems isn't in the best interest of lobbying organizations. Nobody wants to lobby themselves out of a job, after all. Me, I just think that maybe if you spend too much time dealing with bureaucrats, you start thinking like one.

Chris
 
While this ruling may open up some hangar space full of "non-aeronautical" items it will also open up hangar space due to homebuilts being removed. This is a bad ruling for homebuilders, make no mistake about it!

True dat! What will happen is (1) homebuilders will be forced out, or (2) if the airport is more laid-back and would not ordinarily care, a wait-listed owner will complain that a homebuilder or restorer is using hangar space and that homebuilder will be forced out.

All the federally-assisted airports in my area have waiting lists because the danged airports have so many requirements levied by the FAA that it's impossible to build your own hangar.

An FAA rule says that a person must be allowed to lease space to build his own hangar "if the sponsor and the person agree on terms". Funny how the two can never come together on an agreement.

I used to be an expert on these rules until dealing with the FAA gave me a heart attack and I had to push back. Gotta go, BP spiking. :mad:
 
hangar

Those of you thinking the proposed rule is a win have never dealt with the variety of people interpreting and enforcing those rules.

The vagueness of terms like "temporary storage", "incidental items", "insignificant" etc. are left to the imagination of the person making that determination.

My experience goes back to an FAA FSDO inspector. When determining if a alteration on a certified plane was a major or minor, FAR appendix A at the time (since changed in 2012) stated that if an alteration caused appreciable change in the empty weight, it was major. Well this inspectors interpretation was that given the proper equipment, you could measure the weight of a electrical connector, therefore all alterations were major.

To me appreciable meant moving a battery from the firewall to the aft baggage compartment, his interpretation was if it could be measured.

Relying on the good will and reasonableness of those entrusted to enforce the rules can be quite unpredictable unless those rules are well defined.

Obviously the rules cannot cover every possible scenario, but if what is in the hangar deals with aviation and the support thereof, it should be allowed.

If your airplane goes on a trip and your car goes in, that is in support of the aeronautical activity. In addition parking does not need to be built.

If you have a cot to rest during wx delays, that is in support of aeronautical activity.

If you are storing paint cans for your hardware store, sorry, that is not support of aeronautical activity.

If you are building an airplane, or any other activity that supports any aspect of aviation, it is aeronautical activity.


Anything less than defining building as an aeronautical activity is unacceptable. If an airport is looking to get a $10million grant and all that is stopping them is the FAA assertion that they are allowing non aeronautical activity in the hangars, who do you think is going to lose?

COMMENT!
 
Just curious why so many see it as OK for the FAA to stick their nose into a local issue *if* it's to remove boats, non aviation businesses, etc.? Interesting. Seems to me that the city does a pretty good job where I am. Wonder what's wrong with that approach??

And by the way, who's paying for this enforcement? And will you loose your certificate if you're found in violation?!

This whole thing is just, simply, whacked.
 
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The problem supposedly being addressed is non-aviation uses such as as storage for cars, motorhomes, boats, etc.

"Non-aviation use" is any use that doesn't require a runway. It doesn't matter what is being stored or worked on in an airport hangar, if it doesn't require a runway now or in the near future, it shouldn't be subsidized by tax monies intended for flying activities, and taking a valuable hangar away from an actively flying aircraft.

From the Summary of the Proposed Rule:

Moreover, many airports have a waiting list for hangar space, and a tenant's use of a hangar for non-aeronautical purposes prevents aircraft owners from obtaining access to hangar storage on the airport.

Not-so-hypothetical situation: At airport Anywhere, USA, there is a wait list for hangars, measured in years. Someone has a flying aircraft that is being kept out on the ramp; they can afford a hangar but there is not one available. Meanwhile a hangar renter has occupied a hangar for several years while building an Experimental.

Why should the active flying aircraft deteriorate outside, while a building project that does not need a runway occupy a hangar?

And here's the comment I just left on the Comment site:

I applaud the actions of the FAA in this Proposed Rule. Currently quite a number of hangars at airports near me (the Sacramento, California area) are treated as storage units for all manner of items (land vehicles, watercraft, not-airworthy aircraft in disrepair, even furniture). Meanwhile ALL airports in this area have waiting lists for aircraft owners that wish to keep their FLYING aircraft protected from the elements. This Proposed Rule will help ensure that my tax dollars are used for their intended purpose: to keep Federally subsidized airports reserved for FLYING aircraft, not for storage space or long-term building projects that could be done elsewhere.

The bottom line is, many airports have a shortage of hangars. I don't know why this is so, since the aviation population has declined over the years as we all know. But so long as there is a shortage, the scarcity must be allocated some way. Price is one way, and regulation another. This strikes me as a very reasonable accommodation for all parties competing for hangar space.
 
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In my case, the city simply does not care, as long as the rent on the land is paid. Meanwhile aircraft have to be parked outside or at another airport, while hangars are used for all the non aviation reasons previously stated, not for aircraft storage.

Just curious why so many see it as OK for the FAA to stick their nose into a local issue *if* it's to remove boats, non aviation businesses, etc.? Interesting. Seems to me that the city does a pretty good job where I am. Wonder what's wrong with that approach??

And by the way, who's paying for this enforcement? And will you loose your certificate if you're found in violation?!

This whole thing is just, simply, whacked.
 
It's funny I was excited about building my plane at the airport with fellow builders and pilots but after hearing fellow builders on here about not being allowed to build at airports and agreeing with the faa has given me second thoughts I guess it's not a as a tight knit group as I thought, aviation is aviation we should all be in this together builders and completed planes working together
 
Repair of damaged aircraft

Lets say I do what others have done and roll over a bump larger than the "A" nose wheel was designed for and I go over. Do I have to take the airplane apart and move to another location to repair all the parts, then bring everything back for final assembly? What if it was a certified plane that did a ground loop and had lots of damage.

Why is taking 5 years or longer building your airplane in a hangar any different than storing a finished plane that is not current for 5 years? Will this force all the planes that never fly to move outside or recycled?

I have been looking for a hangar for quite some time. I just found a T hangar for rent at the city owned airport. There is a 50'x50' hangar for sale at a good price. There is no reason at all for me to even consider that now. If ALL aviation activity including building and even storage of an old hangar queen airplane isn't allowed, the value of hangars just went down big time.

The rule needs to allow all aviation activity - including building. As long as it has aviation activity, whatever else in in the hangar should not matter.
 
Some parts of this could be interpreted to preclude skydiving. Others to preclude club activities or restoration of aircraft.

I'll comment on specific details when I send the comments in. My general thought is that the goal is good, much of the wording is good, but some of the specific nuances need attention.

Dave
 
Just curious why so many see it as OK for the FAA to stick their nose into a local issue *if* it's to remove boats, non aviation businesses, etc.? Interesting. Seems to me that the city does a pretty good job where I am. Wonder what's wrong with that approach??

First and foremost, the local sponsor is often the violator.

Second, in any dispute (originating with sponsor or tenant), somebody always raises the question "What does the FAA say about it?"

Third, the FAA has no Airport Hangar Use Enforcement Division. When requested, they make a ruling. From there enforcement is in fact a local matter, in the local courts. For the most part, the only punitive action the FAA will take is withholding of grant funds, and then pretty much only when someone has the bad judgement to rub their noses in it.

Which brings us back to what quite a few folks here are trying to say....the NPRM as written is NOT fundamentally against our interests. It needs to be supported, with a tweak: the addition of basic aircraft fabrication as an approved aeronautical activity. The rest of it is better than what we have now.
 
First and foremost, the local sponsor is often the violator.

Second, in any dispute (originating with sponsor or tenant), somebody always raises the question "What does the FAA say about it?"

Third, the FAA has no Airport Hangar Use Enforcement Division. When requested, they make a ruling. From there enforcement is in fact a local matter, in the local courts. For the most part, the only punitive action the FAA will take is withholding of grant funds, and then pretty much only when someone has the bad judgement to rub their noses in it.

Which brings us back to what quite a few folks here are trying to say....the NPRM as written is NOT fundamentally against our interests. It needs to be supported, with a tweak: the addition of basic aircraft fabrication as an approved aeronautical activity. The rest of it is better than what we have now.

Sounds like a dangerous precedent; empowering the federal government to have say in what is contained in a hangar. The DHS, TSA, etc. will be right behind them. Cure sounds worse than the disease.
 
The fact that they list a drill press as an example of something that doesn't belong in a hangar (but a couch is okay) speaks volumes about the disconnect from reality and the ammunition they give bureaucrats enforcing this policy. i.e., No air compressor, no wire wheel or buffer, no sander, etc. The guy restoring a Cub will get hammered too.
As written, the policy is vague and contradictory. If they are going to change it, make it right for crying out loud! As someone else said, once it is published it will be even more difficult to undo. No FAA staffer wants egg on their face by changing a policy they just changed. Been there, seen it! It WILL be years before they touch it again. Bet on it. Meanwhile, we suffer.

Conspiracy hat on: I wonder which big tin bender wrote this policy change for the FAA.
 
...this policy change for the FAA.

Note that the FAA claims there *is no change in policy*, so if you comment, my suggestion would be to note that the policy as it exists from years ago is outdated and should be revised to reflect the current aviation environment (i.e., E-AB and other activities).

When the FAA reads these comments, if the comment says something that is factually wrong, they'll have more reason to ignore it. That was my point about *current* grant assurances stating that owners/operators can do maintenance, repair, inspection, etc....the NPRM doesn't change that, and a comment which complains about it has missed the mark (and will likely be ignored).

We should encourage them *broaden* the scope of "aeronautical activity" to include construction of aeronautical machines, i.e., amateur-built aircraft, based on *today's* aviation environment...where E-ABs are outpacing certificated planes, and have helped to revitalize GA.

But if we argue that they're changing the rules, they'll just say "No, this is the way it's always been...next comment, please".
 
EAA

EAA has a monthly Sport Aviation feature called Pilot Caves, promoting the very activities they are now opposed to??????
 
Just in from AOPA newsletter. Red highlighting is mine.

New FAA hangar policy could offer homebuilders some protection, says EAA
The Federal Aviation Administration is proposing a policy that will more clearly define how airport hangars can be used. The policy allows storage and placement of a reasonable amount of non-aeronautical items -- like those needed to build an airplane from scratch -- in airport hangars, as long as they do not interfere with aviation. Doug Macnair of the Experimental Aircraft Association said the policy actually protects the homebuilt aircraft community for the first time. AOPA Online (7/24), AVweb (8/4)

Am I the only one confused by this statement:confused:
 
+ DanH and more comments ...

First and foremost, the local sponsor is often the violator.

Second, in any dispute (originating with sponsor or tenant), somebody always raises the question "What does the FAA say about it?"

Third, the FAA has no Airport Hangar Use Enforcement Division. When requested, they make a ruling. From there enforcement is in fact a local matter, in the local courts. For the most part, the only punitive action the FAA will take is withholding of grant funds, and then pretty much only when someone has the bad judgement to rub their noses in it.

Which brings us back to what quite a few folks here are trying to say....the NPRM as written is NOT fundamentally against our interests. It needs to be supported, with a tweak: the addition of basic aircraft fabrication as an approved aeronautical activity. The rest of it is better than what we have now.

Again, as Dan implies, let's stay on point with this matter.

The original post was great for getting this dialog going.

The *draft* document is the result of an effort to make things BETTER than they were (not as good as we want in the end but better). Thus the need to be "on it".

The hangars in question are those were government funding was used to build them (taxpayer dollars focused on aeronautical activity).

It is important to keep up the constructive comments to the FAA.

I have had conversations this morning with the appropriate "senior management" at EAA on this and additional work is underway in an effort to make this better.
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As a side note, at the airport where I am, the hangar contracts EXPLICITLY ALLOW home building! This was a result of active participation over the years, in all things at the airport by the local EAA Chapter members. This included involvement in the multiple rounds of hangars hangar building as well as attending Airport Commission and County Council Meetings. The County raised the money to build the hangars.

James

Again, keep those constructive comments flowing to the FAA.
 
How's does it protect me ,

Prior status was that you could be explicitly disallowed such in federally funded hangars as I understand.

This step in rendering explicit that such IS allowed removes such.

The next step now is to further "clarify" to include "active" construction (as well as maintenance) of aircraft.

James
 
The value of the local chapter...

...As a side note, at the airport where I am, the hangar contracts EXPLICITLY ALLOW home building! This was a result of active participation over the years, in all things at the airport by the local EAA Chapter members. This included involvement in the multiple rounds of hangars hangar building as well as attending Airport Commission and County Council Meetings. The County raised the money to build the hangars...

Ah, this points out the value of a local, active EAA Chapter that has a good working relationship with the local Airport Board as well as local county and city leaders. Sadly, for reasons too numerous to mention, we lost those relationships several years ago and our local chapter withered and "died" a couple of years ago, even though there are numerous EAA members who occupy hangars at our airport.

I'm hoping the end result of this proposal will not adversely affect us.
 
The hangars in question are those were government funding was used to build them (taxpayer dollars focused on aeronautical activity).

I do not believe this is the case. As pointed out above, until recently, federal wasn't even available or allowed for hangar construction.

Check out this fairly well-written article:

http://www.hangarsphere.com/hangar-owners-vs-faa-aeronautical-nonaeronautical/#more-351

including this statement:

"Even if you built your hangar and are planning to amortize it over the course of the 15, 20, 30 or 40-year land lease, the FAA still stipulates that regardless of who owns the structure (airport sponsor or private entity), the structure is still subject to the rules governing the land?s usage upon which your hangar sits."
 
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Here's an example of how a few bad apples ruin it for everyone.

photo_zps1ad2d3c5.jpg


This fire took out 10 hangars and several aircraft out of service and they can't replaced because the whole huevada is tied up in court. Rumor is that the offender had no insurance and was storing mass quantities of ammunition in the hangar. The good news for the airport (FFZ Mesa AZ) is that the plan is to replace the center section of the hangar row with an open access bay with the power/shielding/insulation/fire protection to allow welders/torches/sprayers to be used by tenants.

It took me 7 years to get a hangar. Since I've been in mine I've seen numerous example of hangars not being used for aviation purposes, including medical record storage and Baja racing truck building/storage.

My dos centavos is that not unlike an attorney client relationship, EAA is our current advocate. If they say that this is positive progress then we either trust our advocate or get a new one.

It is said that a good lawyer represents his client's wishes and a great lawyer represents his client's best interests, and fully appreciates the difference between the two.

I support EAA for now, but am watching carefully.

Disclaimer. I built the components at a home shop and did "final assembly" at the hangar.
 
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Not-so-hypothetical situation: At airport Anywhere, USA, there is a wait list for hangars, measured in years. Someone has a flying aircraft that is being kept out on the ramp; they can afford a hangar but there is not one available. Meanwhile a hangar renter has occupied a hangar for several years while building an Experimental.

Why should the active flying aircraft deteriorate outside, while a building project that does not need a runway occupy a hangar?

Just because another airplane is flyable doesn't mean it is automatically more valuable to aviation, the airport, or anybody else. Who says that allowing a 172 that flies once a month to have a hangar, while forcing a homebuilder out, is in any way protecting aviation? EAB's fly more hours, so the EAB may take up a hangar for a few years, but then it is likely to do much more flying. How many EAB's will never take flight if builder's can't build in hangars? How does having fewer airplanes support the GA cause? I'm not saying nobody gets shafted in the deal, but it's debatable to use this criteria to decide WHO gets shafted. Scarcities are everywhere in life.

There are many solutions to scarcities, and regulation is rarely the best. Maybe a surcharge for non-flying projects would help. It would offset lost fuel revenue, and also provide further incentive to complete projects in a reasonable timeframe, as well as build as much as possible away from the hangar.

Chris
 
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Princeton

I really hope I just chucked a spear that lands someone in hot water.....





I recently tried to find a hangar for my home built in the Trenton/Princeton area of New Jersey. Upon scouting out hangar space at Princeton airport (39N) I came to learn that not only is the airport property being used by a local car dealership to store inventory, but so are most of the hangars. Allegedly in an under the table deal with the city.

This is the story at most airports I've been looking for.

Home-builders are advocates for aviation, and the industry. The airplanes they build ultimately turn into tax revenue, fuel sales, etc for the community.

Building at an airport, in your hangar is vastly safer as well, especially when there are multiple projects within a hangar. When I moved my project to the airport, being surrounded by other builders the amount of knowledge I gained was incredible. The things I had done wrong were fixed, I learned better and approved ways of doing things. Isolating builders and pilots, especially new ones, to the corners of their garages and basements in no way at all advances aviation or aviation safety.

How about instead of kicking out actual pilots and airplanes, you start by booting everything else I've seen in hangars. RV storage businesses, car dealerships, boat storage, furniture businesses, hoarders, auto parts storage, car restoration businesses, etc. Only then, after all the truly "non-aviation related" activities have been evicted, should you then be targeting home builders because of a lack of hangar space.

When this country has a hangar space shortage problem because they're all full of actual airplanes and airplanes under construction... I'll celebrate. When I can't find a hangar because everyone is building, or there are airplanes everywhere it gives me hope for the aviation industry in the US. When I can barely get to the FBO because there are 200 new Honda Accords lining both sides of the road, it infuriates me and makes me wonder just what the FAA's priorities actually are.
Princeton Airport(39N) is listed as a privately owned airport, the owner Princeton Aero Corp, which I believe is still controlled by the Nierenberg family.
Skyvector.com lists 79 fixed wing aircraft based at Princeton. I count 35 sitting outside which would compute to 44 stored inside. T hangar space at Princeton is very limited so I seriously doubt if anyone is using the hangars for new car storage.
I do not know if Princeton has recieved any Federal Funding. If they have not the owners need only be in compliance with local zoning. Except for local zoning they can operate their property as they wish.
 
Princeton

Did some more research-Princeton has recieved federal funding and probably state funding as well.
see:
princetonairport.com
 
Princeton Airport(39N) is listed as a privately owned airport, the owner Princeton Aero Corp, which I believe is still controlled by the Nierenberg family.
Skyvector.com lists 79 fixed wing aircraft based at Princeton. I count 35 sitting outside which would compute to 44 stored inside. T hangar space at Princeton is very limited so I seriously doubt if anyone is using the hangars for new car storage.
I do not know if Princeton has recieved any Federal Funding. If they have not the owners need only be in compliance with local zoning. Except for local zoning they can operate their property as they wish.

May be private, but they took Federal Money... from a 2002 dedication on the airport history web page -

Once more the Division of Aeronautics provided the airport with a SuperUnicom, which provides pilots automated weather conditions and advisories 24 hours a day. So proudly, Princeton Airport has accepted the terms and conditions for State and Federal monies to keep Princeton Airport a vital link of the national air transportation system and bring air traffic into the Princeton region more quickly and much more safe, as a result of this funding.
 
Just because another airplane is flyable doesn't mean it is automatically more valuable to aviation, the airport, or anybody else.

The flying aircraft can ONLY be kept where there's a runway...the project, lots of places other than an airport. The Federal subsidy (our Federal taxes) that almost all airports get are to be used to support active flying, not non-flying projects, hence this ruling. Comparative value of aircraft meeting the criteria is irrelevant, and a good thing, since for me flying is a hobby. I wouldn't want to get bumped out by someone claiming they fly their aircraft for business or revenue. It's pretty clear, really.
 
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So-called active flyable aircraft can spend considerable down time for repairs, engine rebuilds, etc. We've all seen the hangar orphan in the corner, gathering cobwebs, cowling off, on flat tires. I don't think it's clear-cut at all?.many shades of gray here.
 
That money airports get is from taxpayers and I'm a tax paying homebuilder so I should have the same previledges as airplane owners
 
The flying aircraft can ONLY be kept where there's a runway...the project, lots of places other than an airport. The Federal subsidy (our Federal taxes) that almost all airports get are to be used to support active flying, not non-flying projects, hence this ruling. Comparative value of aircraft meeting the criteria is irrelevant, and a good thing, since for me flying is a hobby. I wouldn't want to get bumped out by someone claiming they fly their aircraft for business or revenue. It's pretty clear, really.

Okay, so how do we define an aircraft as 'flying'? Once a year? Once a month? Once a week? Or maybe an airworthiness cert. What if it is out of annual? That part isn't clear. There are many 'flyable' airplanes in hangars that will never leave the ground before my project is done a year or so from now. I guarantee it. And once we DO let them define it (which also means we let them track our usage), how long before they use those definitions to start cutting funds to airports without enough 'flying' airplanes?

I hate to say it, but this is what happens when we take subsidies. We are beholden to the bureaucrats.
 
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That money airports get is from taxpayers and I'm a tax paying homebuilder so I should have the same previledges as airplane owners

Sorry, no.

AIP money comes from the Airport and Airway Trust Fund, which is funded with ticket taxes, fuel taxes, user fees, etc. Put another way, AIP money is banked when somebody flies, not when somebody files a tax return.
 
and every time I fly and buy gas for my plane so your point, I fly commercial at least three times a month a for my business
 
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