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Cranky starter?

777Dave

Well Known Member
My 3 year old Skytec has significantly more trouble cranking my O-360 when the engine is hot vs cold?? Battery is the same age Odyssey 680.
Today after refueling after a 1 1/2 hour flight in Florida, I didn't think it
was going turn it enough to get it to go...
Anyone seen this before?

Thanks
 
cables

Thanks Ron... did u solve your issue? Do you think it was a battery problem or the starter itself?
As far as the Skytec troubleshooting guide goes, I fit into the "bump and run" category... that is worst when hot. They suggest the cables could be the issue. I have replaced ALL of them recently with #4 cables (automotive). Should I have used #2?
Connections are clean and both solenoids are brand new.
I guess doing a voltage drop check would pinpoint the problem...
 
When I did the voltage test it suggested a marginal battery. Hence replacing it. I decided to replace the starter since the NL seems to work with less battery electrons. No problems since.
 
The Skytec LS starters are junk. Seen what you're seeing happen a bunch of times. The Skytec NL, however, is fantastic. I had an LS, a B&C, and an NL on my -6 and the NL beats the others hands down. I highly suggest you upgrade, you won't be sorry.
 
The Skytec LS starters are junk. Seen what you're seeing happen a bunch of times. The Skytec NL, however, is fantastic. I had an LS, a B&C, and an NL on my -6 and the NL beats the others hands down. I highly suggest you upgrade, you won't be sorry.

I agree.

What is best is a wire wound starter which is what the NL and B&C are.

These starters are recommended with EI since they do not have the voltage drop the older, cheaper, non wire wound starters are plagued with.

I like and have always used B&C. They cost more but they work and will start a hot engine any time.
 
Take your battery to a battery shop and have them test for cold crank amps.

I bet its lower than acceptable.
 
In addition to the above suggestions, check your ground circuit.

You should have a ground wire at least as large as your supply line to the starter, from the engine case to the airframe. Clean and tight connections on both ends.

While you are at it, check for clean and tight connections on the supply side also.

Good luck, let us know what you end up finding out.
 
Skytec

Thanks everyone for their input.
Spoke to Rich at Skytec this morning and he suggested more trouble shooting re voltage drop. If there isn't at least 10 volts at the starter, it will not perform well. He suggested a possible ground problem.
Also mentioned that the LS is an excellant starter for my application... hmmm.

Cheers
 
Dave, I got several hundred dollars trade in on my old starter against the NL.

Ron,

What kind of starter did you trade in? With whom did you trade to? How long ago? I've been thinking of a new starter, and a trade in against an NL would make me pull the trigger.

Thanks,
 
Dave, I got several hundred dollars trade in on my old starter against the NL.

I wish they would have done that for me. I called, they said no, so I called B&C and gave them my money. I sold my LS to a friend and it has been working well for quite some time on his normal compression 320.
 
Bob

The Skytec LS starters are junk. Seen what you're seeing happen a bunch of times. The Skytec NL, however, is fantastic. I had an LS, a B&C, and an NL on my -6 and the NL beats the others hands down. I highly suggest you upgrade, you won't be sorry.

I like your new avatar, BTW the carb is working great.:)
Thanks
Jerry
 
Dave, I got several hundred dollars trade in on my old starter against the NL.

Was wondering about that... he didn't offer me a trade but that would definitely make me consider upgrading to an NL.
I plan to do some investigating today.
 
testing...

Here's what we found today...
Battery(PC680) voltage, no load: 12.5
Battery voltage, while cranking: 9.9
Voltage at starter while cranking: 8.9

So according to the Skytec trouble shooting guide, the 8.9 volts is
below the 10 volt minimum to allow the starter to perform up to spec.
Looks like the battery is the problem. Ordered a new one.
Its interesting because during the testing on a cold engine, the little
bugger cranked over like crazy, no problems. A hot engine is another
story...
 
Dave, what you're going to find is that a new battery will only give you temporary relief, if at all.

I've been thru this song and dance 5-6 times now measuring voltage drops on airplanes with poor performing LS starters.

An NL will work a lot better. It has a taller gear ratio, uses a series wound motor, so it is less demanding of your electrical system.
 
Dave, what you're going to find is that a new battery will only give you temporary relief, if at all.

I've been thru this song and dance 5-6 times now measuring voltage drops on airplanes with poor performing LS starters.

An NL will work a lot better. It has a taller gear ratio, uses a series wound motor, so it is less demanding of your electrical system.

Not discoutning Bob's experience at all, and our new Mattituck engine has the NL installed....however, I got 2,000 hours out of an early LS starter on my old Grumman (O-320, high compression) without a problem, and have close to 1,500 hours on the LS on my Mattituck O-360 in the RV-8. So maybe they built some of them right...

Then again, Mattituck switched from the LS to the NL as standard.
 
Skytec

Well, had another chat with Skytec today and there was no admission of any sort that the LS starter may not be perfect for all applicatins, they did tell me that their policy was to allow an exchange for $200 plus shipping. So I decided to take their offer and try the NL in my airplane.

I will report back with my comparison findings....

Thanks again. :)
 
update

Okay so we did the replacement last Sat....

First new Odyssey 680, still Skytec LS...
Voltage at starter, 9.3 volts
Cold cranking very good.

Second, changed starter for new Skytec NL...
Voltage at starter, 9.9 volts
Cold cranking very good.

All cables and connections are clean and tight.

As noted, my issues were most noticable when the engine was hot (high compression) . I will have a chance to check this very soon. Standby.

One more thing, has anyone tried running a battery cable directly from the starter ground to the battery? (ie: not using the engine block as part of the ground). This has been suggested. Helpful?
 
hot starting

Flew yesterday and got a chance to crank the engine when it was hot...
With the new battery and Skytec NL starter, it cranked much stronger.
Hopefully my problem is solved.

Thanks to all for the help.
 
Cranky starter

I may be going through the same issue. Cranking slower lately. Changing the battery will be my first preventitive maintenance action. My 680 is 7 years old now. Gave a great service life. Had a maintainer on it when not at use in the hanger for the lifespan. Seems to have made a difference in extending the average life of this battery. It still starts the RV7.

After reading this thread, I will remove, clean and reinstall ground connections. The LS starter has done well with exception to a fractured nose cone on the housing. Needle bearings all over. I will happily trade it in for the NL if I get a $200 credit. You all have convinced me the 1.15 pound addition is worth it. I will go with Daves new starter too, if mine is part of the problem of slow cranking.
 
Skytec

Very possibly your 7 year old battery is the problem. Skytec will tell you that 10 volts at the starter is vital for LS performance.
My impression is that as the battery ages, the NL model will cope with lower than 10 volts better. However since I replaced both the battery and starter at the same time, I'm not sure exactly what is responsible for the better performance.
I found the people at Skytec ready to discuss my situation and easy to talk to...

Cheers
 
680 battery next

The 7 year old 680 battery will be replaced on my RV7 in a few months at the condition inspection unless I pull the cowl prior. We will see if that solves the slow cranking. Thanks for your info. If I replace the starter it will be the trade in upgrade.
 
SkyTec Trade-In price increase!

Today someone posted, in another thread, how they always come home to find a VAF topic dealing with their exact same problem and I couldn't agree more. I have an Carb O-360, single Slick Mag and ElectroAir EI, PC-680 battery and SkyTec 149-LS starter. My starting had become very sluggish and fell into the "Bump and run" category on the troubleshooting guide. Hot or cold was same bump and run.

I pulled the battery and load test showed it was 'weak', so I replaced it with a new PC-680 and the starter turned over as expected with normal performance. After reading this thread (Rocket Bob's advice on new battery only being temporary fix) and doing some more research I decided to upgrade to the SkyTec 149-NL starter.

I called SkyTec yesterday to inquire about the trade-in program and I am happy to report the customer service was top notch. I spoke with Dona and Richelle and both were extremely nice and very helpful. They asked for my starter serial number to verify it wasn't on warranty (as I did not have a logbook entry of when the starter was installed), she also did a maintenance record check to verify my starter had not been sent in for maintenance.

Now to the subject of this post: Called SkyTec this morning to order the NL starter and was quoted a price of $254 (w/o shipping) for the trade in program. I asked why it was $254 vice $200 that I was quoted yesterday and she stated that the prices were going up effective March 1st and that they were quoting March prices now. She quickly changed my quote back to pre-March price of $200 (+shipping) as quoted here on VAF.

So for those of you thinking of doing the trade-in, I recommend you call berfore the March 1st price increase to get the NL starter for $200!!

Thanks again to VAF for the wealth of knowledge!

Dan
 
NL starter

Don't we LQQK clever now!
Excellent cranking from my new battery/starter combination...

:D
 
AWESOME NL Starter

Installed my new SkyTec NL starter with new positive and ground wires. Cranking is so much better. I am very happy with the NL starter over my former LS model.

Thanks for everyone's input and information. Put me in the "upgraded to NL starter and love it!" category!

Dan
 
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