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Rounding out too high.

AndyRV7

Well Known Member
I am looking for some feedback. I have had my 7 for about 5 weeks now and have about 30 hours in it. During my training I had a habit of rounding out too low for my instructors comfort. But I was consistently able to remain at whatever level I was over the runway without ballooning at all. And I was making 90% of my landings on the tail wheel. Since then, I have made about 99% of my landings too high and am dropping the plane on the runway. Some of that is comming from ballooning too. Either way, if I am initially high, I cannot get the plane to sink closer to the runway before it is at full stall. It feel like I am stalling at 3 feet but it is probably closer to 6-12". My approach speed control is good (80 mph right down to the runway) and I have enough time in flare to absorb what is happening but I can't seem to correct it. Oh, and my centerline control is good as well. I had about 15 hours of TW time before this plane. Can anyone offer any advice?

Thanks. Andy
 
Whoops, kinda like the primer wars.
Most of us wheel land on pavement.
A three point landing is a full stall landing and will always drop some. Whether it is 1" or 12".
 
Seating height has a huge influance...

Make sure you are sitting as high in the seat as reasonable head room will allow.
It is not something many RV owners put much value in, but it does make a huge difference. Relevant to tri gear or tail dragger.....
 
Whoops, kinda like the primer wars.
Most of us wheel land on pavement.
A three point landing is a full stall landing and will always drop some. Whether it is 1" or 12".

Actually... as pointed out in the WARS, an RV is not at stall AOA when three point so if you are touching down 3 point, the airplane has not fully stalled yet. If you do fully stall, the touch down will be tail wheel first (as the OP in this thread mentioned his are.
As for most of us.... From watching lots of RV pilots, I would say at best it is 50/50. I think the wheel land crowd tends to be more passionate about it being the "only sensible way" so the others just keep quiet (like I will now... I see this thread taking a hard right turn from this point on....)
 
Back to mother earth

Google Rod Machado's article on visual clues about when to roundout.
And sit high.... as mentioned. Good advice.
The cues Rod talks about are somewhat subtle... but they work.
Holding the plane off and three pointing is a good skill.
Don't get into the "heavy" advice about wheels first etc.
Get COMFORTABLE..... then your confidence goes up and you can handle all the types of landings. I teach in tail draggers and have flown them from Luscombe to B-17 G model. Landings are fun....
Master all types and pick some days with deliberate gusts and crosswinds.
Your Utility of the plane ownership goes right up with your confidence.
And check your ego at the cockpit climb in phase...
Guys get WAY to hung up on what anyone else thinks about the quality of each landing. Just tune it out.
Now, go have fun.
 
I am looking for some feedback. I have had my 7 for about 5 weeks now and have about 30 hours in it. During my training I had a habit of rounding out too low for my instructors comfort. But I was consistently able to remain at whatever level I was over the runway without ballooning at all. And I was making 90% of my landings on the tail wheel. Since then, I have made about 99% of my landings too high and am dropping the plane on the runway. Some of that is comming from ballooning too. Either way, if I am initially high, I cannot get the plane to sink closer to the runway before it is at full stall. It feel like I am stalling at 3 feet but it is probably closer to 6-12". My approach speed control is good (80 mph right down to the runway) and I have enough time in flare to absorb what is happening but I can't seem to correct it. Oh, and my centerline control is good as well. I had about 15 hours of TW time before this plane. Can anyone offer any advice?

Thanks. Andy

It's normal to flare too early... I think it takes time to recognize the exact visual references for a perfect landing. You may try a touch of power as you flare to arrest the descent rate and give you more time to get ahead of the airplane.

Alternatively, keep flying down the runway in a more level attitude, like you would for a wheel landing, then let the aircraft descend to you target height, then start your flare. Again, this gives you more time to get ahead of the airplane. Also, it gives you the option of a wheely or a 3-point.

Practice, practice, practice. Plan for a go-around on every landing and don't be afraid to do one if you bounce.

I'm a low hour tail dragger pilot as well and it was not a good feeling when I was behind the airplane.
 
I had the same problem. The shorter wingspan on the RV leads to a lower ground effect than what I was used to, which contributes to the problem. Going against the grain, I refused to give up on three pointing my RV7...after six months, I now feel like I am fairly consistent and will move my efforts to wheel landings. I like to have both tools in the toolbox. Three pointers are tough to nail though...bounces are common even on a fairly good one. Carrying too much speed (energy) certainly compounds the problem, so good speed control is paramount. Its challenging...but fun to try and master, just try not to break the plane in the process.
 
My advice is don't worry about it. You will notice throughout your flying career that you might get into small ruts, and you'll pop out of them. There is an ebb and flow to all this. Somehow you've developed a habit. The fact that you are even thinking about it and making the effort means you'll probably break it soon without much effort. Force yourself to do something different during the landing process- anything. You'll break out of it. I don't know of much specific technique advice we can give. Try flying the approach 3 mph slower.
 
Have you gotten any in type training? That might help. I did mine with Mike S. You don't say if you have a CS prop? Mike taught me to do the final with full flaps and 1800 engine rpm until it crossing the threshold then cut power, maintaining 70 mph down the approach.

It comes down pretty steep and I was a lot more comfortable doing three pointers than wheel landings. It is a sensitive bird, but does give definite clues to it's situation. Not much flare, and I had a hard time not just continuing to just pull back on the stick like a cessna in ground effect.

I am not flying so maybe not much help. A more experienced pilot should provide better guidance for you.
 
During my transition training in a 7 we did a little practice of doing an approach, and flying down the runway as low as you can get it, inches above the surface and get used to that sight picture and the smooth control inputs required to keep it there. Once I had made one pass it greatly improved my sense of the wheel landing touchdown point.
 
I teach in tail draggers and have flown them from Luscombe to B-17 G model. Landings are fun....

Ugh, the B-17G, my current landing nemesis. I'm a newbie copilot on a CAF B-17 with a whopping 8+ hours and 8 landings under my belt; the current wisdom is to do 3 point landings in it and I just don't have the feel yet. With 1400 tailwheel hours, I can 3 point Citabrias, Cubs and RV-4s, plus wheel land an RV-8, T-6, L18 Lodestar all day long... but to 3 point the B-17, ugh, it's embarrassing. But I digress...

To the original poster I have one word; practice! What Luddite42 said in post #8 seems right on the money to me.
 
I guess I should have kept quiet rather than adding to the debate.
Now I feel like I need to defend my comment:)
My thoughts were that Andy is a low time TW pilot and he is three point landing his RV7 with some level of frustration. I was only offering an alternative with the wheel landing. I also believe that we should all perfect (if that is possible) all types of landings or flying.
Scott, I did not know the RV three point landing was not a full stall. Probably why my un-perfected three point landings are very tail low. I assume this means I should let it settle before the stall while in a three point attitude?
Go have fun with it Andy as it is all fun.
 
Landing

I think the vast majority of problems landing airplanes where one can see at least some of the runway straight ahead is that people get their focus locked in on the runway straight ahead. Spend 75% of the time in the flare looking to the side at roughly a 45 degree angle and 25% looking straight ahead.
One landing in a Pitts or a Stearman will cure you of looking straight ahead. You will see a lot of sky and no runway.
If the runway is wide with a well marked centerline, practice landing with the centerline at the left wingtip.
This information is based on my conclusion the few if any will look to the right in the flare. Experienced biplane pilots will look both ways but not just to the right.
 
Landing

Ugh, the B-17G, my current landing nemesis. I'm a newbie copilot on a CAF B-17 with a whopping 8+ hours and 8 landings under my belt; the current wisdom is to do 3 point landings in it and I just don't have the feel yet. With 1400 tailwheel hours, I can 3 point Citabrias, Cubs and RV-4s, plus wheel land an RV-8, T-6, L18 Lodestar all day long... but to 3 point the B-17, ugh, it's embarrassing. But I digress...

To the original poster I have one word; practice! What Luddite42 said in post #8 seems right on the money to me.

I am surprised about the B17. The consensus of most DC3 pilots is that three point is not a good idea. Tail low wheel landings in the DC3. Same for me with the Beech 18.
 
RV-7 Landing

I think you are carrying too much speed on approach. My 7A works a lot better if approach is about 70 K with around 60K on short final. Go up and check IAS stall speed at safe altitude. You do not need more that about 10K above stall on short final. Makes the landing much more easy and ground roll less as well. Try it. You will like it. :D
 
I think you are carrying too much speed on approach. My 7A works a lot better if approach is about 70 K with around 60K on short final. Go up and check IAS stall speed at safe altitude. You do not need more that about 10K above stall on short final. Makes the landing much more easy and ground roll less as well. Try it. You will like it. :D

OP specified 80 MPH... which is pretty much 70kt. That squares with the speeds I use in the -6, holding 70kt until starting the flare.

Personally I've found wheel landings much easier.
 
This year I discovered wheel landings and have been hooked ever since. Working on my skill to shorten em however but I still like em! Much less issues with skipping and bouncing!
 
look to the side a bit

I think we all have had the same problem but once you get your sight pic figured out you will be fine. take a glance lower left and look at the runway. just a quick glance will let you know more about your flair than you hunting for the runway. JRS has it right, I know it seems scary but take your eyes and glance to the runway. Once you start doing that your mind will adjust and your landings will improve. Good luck and have fun. Then on to wheel landings....
 
I think we all have had the same problem but once you get your sight pic figured out you will be fine. take a glance lower left and look at the runway. just a quick glance will let you know more about your flair than you hunting for the runway. JRS has it right, I know it seems scary but take your eyes and glance to the runway. Once you start doing that your mind will adjust and your landings will improve. Good luck and have fun. Then on to wheel landings....

You really don't have to turn your head. Just look as far to the side as you are able, without turning your head, back and forth from straight ahead to the side. I have a vivid recollection of my problems in judging the flare from the back seat of a J3 Cub in 1957. It was all about where I focused. Can't remember what I had for lunch today but I remember the landing problems from 1957.
 
If your flying a helicopter, I might agree with you? if not, with respect, we will have to agree to disagree.
For perspective, I've landed on 20 degree inclines, river beds, unprepared LZ's etc etc. Did it for a living years ago. Probably same as you. But I don't think thats what the original poster is discussing.
Andy, take a deep breath, don't grip the stick so tight, :eek: and look down the runway?Maybe leave a bit of power on for a while until you get the feel for it. It uses a bit more runway, but it slows everything down for you? (round out, flare and touch down)
Best,
DM

A terrible idea. What if the runway is not level, but a series of hills and valleys. You want part of your focus to be close to the airplane in this case.
 
All good advice

You?re getting a lot of good advice and it all sums to ?practice.?
Spend time sitting/taxiing in your aircraft to burn that 3 point sight picture into your memory; that picture is important regardless of which type landing you choose.
Keep reminding yourself that initially you are flying with only your conscious processor (tens of bits per sec) when you get enough data points your subconscious processor takes over (millions of bits per sec). I always remind myself of that whenever I suck at something new.
 
When I first started flying my -9, I made 100% three point landings.

Over the past 300+ hours all I seem to do is wheel land it. It is as if I found it difficult to three point it.

One thing I do, and I don't know where I learned it, is to lower the right wheel, feeling for the runway. Once it is down, I lower the left wheel and push forward on the stick.

After reading this thread, I need to get out and practice three point landings again!
 
Thanks everyone for the great insightful discussion. I'll try to give you some more info based on the questions/suggestions I can remember.

I did do my initial transition training in an RV-6. When I bought the 7, I hired a ferry pilot to fly with me and give me additional training until I felt solo-ready. That was a good plan! I am nearly 6'3" so my head is as close the the canopy as you can get. I actually look over the cowl on the left side of the prop hump when I land. I don't remember being able to do this when I did my initial transition training. Jan Bussell taught me to look out to the left. He also mentioned that if I didn't learn to land that way I would never be consistent in my landings. He certainly was good at it.Those words have been reverberating with me now.

One other thing I realized while reading this thread is that I did all my "good" landings with my instructor when there was virtually zero wind. My first attempt solo in high winds (down the runway) resulted in my first ballooned landing. So I guess there is something to the winds. I haven't had light winds since my instructor left 5 weeks ago.

I like the idea of landing with a little power on. The times I've added a little power back as I near stall higher than I wanted really seemed to buy me some more time to try to smooth things out in the flare. I guess it wouldn't hurt to have a few more seconds on landing to feel my way a little lower over the runway.

I also want to read the article about visual cues someone pointed out.

Thanks for the help. Andy
 
Keep reminding yourself that initially you are flying with only your conscious processor (tens of bits per sec) when you get enough data points your subconscious processor takes over (millions of bits per sec). I always remind myself of that whenever I suck at something new.

That's an excellent way of putting it, and so true.
 
My landing in my -8 got a lot better when I kept a little power on and also slowed from 70 knots to 65 knots on short final. It reduced bounces, shortened runway usage, and allowed very tail low wheel landings.

The subconscious processor also kicked in, I think.

Don
 
My landing in my -8 got a lot better when I kept a little power on and also slowed from 70 knots to 65 knots on short final. It reduced bounces, shortened runway usage, and allowed very tail low wheel landings.

The subconscious processor also kicked in, I think.

Don
This is true for me as well, except that the -9's speeds are about 10 knots less. If I can get the short final speeds down to about 1.3-1.35 Vso my tendency to bounce or hop signficantly, 2-pt or 3-pt, goes way down. For my plane, solo, this means about a 50-55kt short final.

Caveat: this is for a -9. Some of the short-wing RVs have a reputation for dropping out from under you if you get too slow. My -9 does not seem to exhibit this tendency. Plus, with the big elevator, it's got plenty of elevator authority. Thus, YMMV.

PS to the original poster: Hang in there. I've found that it's quite easy to land my RV safely. Landing it nicely, however, is another story and always a work in progress!
 
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PS to the original poster: Hang in there. I've found that it's quite easy to land my RV safely. Landing it nicely, however, is another story and always a work in progress!

I have kept Mike Seager's comment in mind for the past 15 years of RV-6 flying:

"The RV is easy to fly but can be difficult to fly precisely."

Preciseness has come easier for me in the past decade and a half...but it can take time.
 
I swap airplanes quite a bit and as such, have to deal with that ever changing sight picture.

One exercise I have found helpful teaching in a variety or airframes is what I call "kissing the runway". Does it have a name aside from that? No clue.

Rather than break down the steps let me give you the end state...

On a long and wide runway you will have executed a stable approach to your flare height (which will change over time). Just prior to the point of touchdown you will use what throttle and attitude changes necessary to keep the airplane as close to the runway in a safe landing attitude as possible. If you touch the runway...add power and continue. It's a **** of a lot of fun.
EDIT: This exercises repeats itself down the length of runway, well as much runway as allows safe recovery.

My thought with this exercise is that it produces a pilot capable of devoting the majority of their attention to outside flying clues, and "unlocks" them during the last few and most crucial moments of landing. Regardless if you decide to 3 pt/ or wheel it on...at least you are aware of where your bird is.

Of course the routine disclaimer, when in doubt grab a TW CFI. And have fun mastering your RV. :)
 
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