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costing breakdown

S

smenkhare

Active Member
First I know that i'm going to be missing a lot here but I've been doing a bit of window shopping and put together a quick spreadsheet of costs. What else do I need to add?

Kit Vans Vans RV-10 $56,915.00
Tools aircraft spruce rv10 kit $2,514.50
audio panel steinair PMA9000EX $1,895.00
autopilot steinair Digiflight IIVSGV $5,200.00
Transponder steinair GTX330 $3,500.00
radio steinair SL40 $1,849.00
gps steinair GNS430W $7,995.00
Panel steinair rv10 panel to be quoted
engine Vans io-540 $45,800.00
ignition vans lightspeed ignition $1,285.00
Propeller Vans Hartzell blended airfoil $7,180.00
Governer Vans hartzell $1,250.00
Paint NA NA to be quoted
spinner Vans NA $160.00
battery aircraft spruce AEROVOLTZ LITHIUM BATTERY (EVO2-8 CELL) $156.50
landing lights x2 aircraft spruce aeroled 1600 $649.90
red tail beacon aircraft spruce aveo red baron xp $575.00
nav lights aircraft spruce aeroled pulsar $795.00
throttle quadrant aerosport products rv10 throttle insert $125.00
primary efis steinair twin grand rapids $8,000.00
secondary efis aircraft spruce twin dynon skyview $5,158.00
engine monitor steinair SUPER ENGINE INFORMATION SYSTEM $877.95
Overhead steinair RV10 console+lights $1,100.00
$152,980.85
 
Peter,

I will PM you.

Having built an Rv10 and done it here, ith all the local knowledge, and a bit more, I think we should talk, just to help you miss the bits you otherwise might not dodge on your own.

Great choice by the way :D
 
considered using the grt a/p with your GRT efis instead...would be much less than then 5200 you have budgeted.
 
Add a 406 ELT and, unless you're buying everything all at once, some inflation.

Tools? Workshop utilities? Oxygen? Allowance for parts replacement if you screw up (nothing personal, but this has happened....)? Wiring, plugs, cable ties? Rags? Oil? Gasoline?

Dave
 
Estimates

I am in Victoria and have did some detailed estimates about 2 years ago with new engine $55k, IFR glass cockpit $60k, QB kit incl FW Forward $70k, Prop $8k and no real internal fitout. These items alone = $193k. Remember shipping, Insurance and GST....

My estimate on the full build including import costs and GST was ~$200-220k.

This is not including the investment for shop fittout and tooling.

I am now 14 months into the build and believe I will use every bit of it.

Obviously on 2nd hand engine, SB kit and lower cost cockpit you can save maybe $50k.

But with new costs good fitout VFR , I believe you will be in the vacinity of $180-200k.

Drop me a line if you want to discuss.
 
how much? ...there's always Mastercard!

RV-10 - complete , with paint & interior....

$xx,000 more than you thought.


finding a willing partner with a hangar.....priceless.
 
David Paule said:
Add a 406 ELT and, unless you're buying everything all at once, some inflation.

Tools? Workshop utilities? Oxygen? Allowance for parts replacement if you screw up (nothing personal, but this has happened....)? Wiring, plugs, cable ties? Rags? Oil? Gasoline?

Dave
Click to expand...

oops. i did actually have an elt in there before and I've already added tools.

Tax is something that I didn't think of. that'll be an extra 10% on top of most things. Although I did find a few overhauled engines for about 12K less than new.
 
Cost Breakdown, "Rule of Thumb"

I've found that a good "Rule of Thumb" for the completed cost of an RV "slow build" is:....... Kit cost times 3.5-4.0 (depending on ammonut of "whistles and bells).

RV-10 would be $43,000 x 3.75 (avg) = $161,250 etc.
RV-7A would be $22,000 x 3.75 (avg) = $82,500 etc.
 
Don't forget paint

Don't forget paint, if you are going to paint it yourself ~$3000
If you are going to have it painted $10,000 and Up from what I have researched.

I started with an estimate of $155,00-$165000 my current estimate is $175,000 (Painting myself) and I would not be surprised if it ended up at $180,000. (Full IFR 2 10" screen EFIS, aerosport interior)
 
You're also missing all the price increases that will happen between now and the time you actually buy the appropriate parts.

When I started an IO-540 (new) was $37K. Today it's out of the crate at $46K and accessories will push it over $50K. An MT prop was $7,000 and today it is $10,100. It's not getting any cheaper.

I thought I could get in for $120K with a cheapo RV-10, and when I started I could. But that quickly turned into $160K for a cheapo RV-10 after all the price increases, shipping, and missed miscellaneous items.

If you'd like to know the real price that I'm looking at, PM me and I'll let you know. But after the real world gets done doing it's thing, you'll end up being much higher than you expected.

Phil
 
Peter

Call me

I have it ALL spreadsheet calculated in AUD$ conversions, including freight and GST.

So far on this thread I am the only one complete in AU, And I must say Andrew Longs estimates are close, maybe go see him.
 
Add a few sweetners.....

+ $A12,000 for 2 Business Class (minimum) trips to Europe or wherever a year; cheaper than a divorce (but it does cut into build time :))
 
Special Tools

I haven't totaled my tools cost, but I can tell you that besides the initial RV tool kit, I have purchased at least one new tool every week for four years. That is in addition to the many tools that I have fabricated in the shop. I would not be surprised if I have have spent more than $10K for tools, and very few of them are unnecessary IMHO.
 
I am doing HW floor in my house and it is standard to add 10% to your total footage. This 10% is certainly true and minimum for building.

Add another $10K for all the misc. stuff, including those things you don?t need but it is cool to have :)
 
Scope creep

You'll change your mind on lots of stuff, and add more 3rd party changes than you anticipate. As others have said, add a bunch of reserve to cover those kinds of things. I ended up 10% over my budget, and that's after cutting back on a number of "extras" I originally wanted but then couldn't afford.

Dwight
 
A little more info....

I thought it would be good to put together a little more detail as I described earlier based on current rates.... Note kit purchase when $AUD was significantly lower.....

NOTE these are estimates, however, like I said previously, I feel are much on the money and may even be a little shy add 5% for bits and pieces.....

Price Breakdown $USD $AUD Amount
RV-10 Quick-Build kit $52,145 $51,123
- New Lycoming $53,150 $52,108
Firewall forward accessories $8,763 $8,591
Hartzell constant-speed prop $8,498 $8,331
Contingency - other stuff $3,400 $3,333
Nav and landing lights / strobes $1,000 $980
IFR avionics $46,395 $45,486
Basic electrical system $2,000 $1,961
Cushions / harnesses $2,000 $1,961
Total Aircraft Cost $173,874
GST $17,387

Do-it yourself paint $10,000 $10,000
Primer and accessories $1,500 $1,471
Sea crating $1,320 $1,294.12
Sea shipping $3,500 $3,431
Fees $800 $784
Tool kit / power tools $6,736 $6,604
Total Construction Price $214,649

Hope this helps...
 
The estimate of $46000+ for avionics is really too high. You COULD spend that much and more however. My friend has $60k into his including an oxygen system and dual AFS. I've only spent $35k with a dual GRT EFIS and a Garmin430, etc. My oxygen has been self installed. I would consider my panel to be loaded for IFR. All depends on what you want to spend your money on.:D
 
$185K

I kept pretty good track of my actual costs and I came in at $185K including the following:

Standard build kit
Dual AFS 5500/5600 - with dual AHRS, dual magnetometers, internal GPS
GTN650
Aerosport Power rebuilt IO540
Hartzell BA prop
Lots of Aerosport Products Carbon fiber products - panel, quadrant, overhead console, hinge pin covers, armrest.
Throttle Quadrant
AFS AOA
ACKE04 ELT
Duckworks HIDs
VP-X
Approach Fast Stack HUB
Navworx ADS-B
SL-30
PMA8000BT
GTX327
Professional 4 color paint - base/clear
Aeroleds Nav/strobes
AF Autopilot
Couple backup round gauges - ASI and Trutrak ADI II w/GPS
TCW IBBS backup battery
About $5000 in Synergy training
All tools (well maybe I forgot to keep track of some cheap HF stuff and expendables like MEK)
Flightline Interior Leather seats
Several extras from Plane Around and Plane Innovations - 3rd latch, SS heater boxes, axle extensions, wheel fairing bracket spacers
Matco nose wheel axle and correct wheel
Leakguard tubes all around
Plenty of powdercoating various parts
2-place portable Mtn High O2 system
Dimmer and CO Monitor from Flight Data

I started 2.5 years ago so there will have been some escalation, but not that much.
 
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agree with your take on thread

erich weaver said:
Well, that should should just about put a stop to any more -10 kits from being sold.

Erich
Click to expand...

Erich, I have to agree with you. With all the "encouragement" here, I can't imagine another kit being started and we should see kits from those giving up coming up for sale soon.

I am not questioning the costs people are posting, but how about some ways to save and cut the cost of building? An RV of any model can be built to look nice, have a reasonable panel, and be safe, at a reasonable price. I know people that have done it and that is what my plans are. As long as I can control my "wants" to "needs", I will make it!
 
rockwoodrv9 said:
,.... but how about some ways to save and cut the cost of building?.....
Click to expand...


Ahh, there's the rub. Sure any RV can be built "frugally", but I'd argue that the 10, of all the other models, lends itself more to the opposite end of the cost spectrum partly because 2 of the major components (the kit itself and the most popular engine, an IO-540) cost significantly more to begin with, but mainly due to it's mission as a purposely designed cross-country cruiser. Few -10 builders I know off want a bare-bones crusier. That doesn't mean you have to be prepared to shell at $200K+, but you still have to go into it grounded in reality.

In my own case I’m trying to finish up soon, getting close to the 90% done, 90% to go phase. I’ve got 3 major purchases left to make (prop, Fire-wall-forward items {alternators, exhaust, hoses, etc}, and radios) and I’m trying to get my financial ducks in a row to get it all ordered. Meanwhile I’ve fitted my cabin top and I’m currently in the process of mounting my overhead console (OHC) to it before the top is permanently mounted to the fuse – it’s easier to work on the OHC with top off the plane and upside down. With the exception of one small tailcone skin, all the major sheet metal work is complete and it’s basically fiberglass work from here on out. Any way, based upon what I've spent to date, what I have yet to buy (for which I know exactly the cost) I'll have spent $162K plus another roughly $5K in tools when it's all said and done.

FYI, My plane will fall somewhere between Greg Hale's and Van's demonstrator as far as accoutrements:

Slowbuild kit started in 2006
Barrett IO-540 Rebuild
Garmin dual screen G3X, GTN 650, SL 30
TruTrak GX Pilot
TruTrak Gemini PFD
VP-200 Electrical system
Full Flightline fake leather interior from Abby
Pro Paint
 
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Frugal

I thought I did a pretty good job of saving money on a number of fronts, but ended up with a pretty darn capable and nice looking airplane. I came within spitting distance of my original budget.

I guess it depends on the mission you want. If you need/want 4 seats it's going to cost more. If you want an IFR panel it's going to cost more. If you want various extras it's going to cost more. I would venture to say that most -10 builders are looking at the -10 as a VERY favorable alternative to Cirrus, -206s, etc. and when viewed in that light the -10 is a winner. I don't know what the lowest cost you could build a daytime VFR -10 for, but it would probably be quite a bit less than my cost and most of those I've seen. The nice thing is, you can do that if you want.

My $0.02
 
good points

Todd and Brian, good points. I was looking at it through the eyes of a person builing a 9. I agree that the 10 is a different animal and does have a different flying profile and when put against a Cirrus, it is an affordable 4 place for sure. It sounds like both of you have kept a close watch on costs and still getting what you want. The advantage of building continues to shine.

To me, some of the posts just sounded a bit negative and that the costs were always going to be more than expected. Im sure that is mostly true, but there are ways to explain this and still be encouraging to new and prospective builders. The more of us, the stronger all of us are.

rockwood
 
Get a ride

I was told by one -10 owner (who you all know) that he falls in love with his plane more every time he gets in it. I'm only 60 hours into mine, but I completely agree. The best way to be encouraging to someone is to give them a ride and some stick time. That should do it...anyone needing encouragement in my neighborhood is welcome to a ride. Standing invitation.
 
This is something that comes up quite often, so I've been maintaining a spreadsheet with current and past prices since last Nov.

I know I've missed some line items. You're never going to capture all of them even in your best efforts to identify all the costs. But this spreadsheet comes from Van's webstore and uses pricing that is available today.

costs.gif


There are a couple of things about this sheet.

1) I realize I'm painting with a broad brush, so I tried to capture factual pricing where I could and in those that are estimates (panel, upholstery, paint, etc.) I tried to find a conservative but reasonable number. Everyone's plane will be different.

2) I also chose the cheapest version of items to purchase (Experimental Engine, 2 Blade Hartzell, Cheapest ELT, etc). So this represents "the floor" from a new parts perspective.

3) These are today's prices and the prices aren't going down. So by the time the purchase dates for each of these line items roll around, you should expect to pay more.

4) The panel cost would get you a decent/modest IFR panel. I would add that it's 30-70% less than the total cost other RV-10 builders are spending on their panel. Most RV-10 builders I've spoken with are spending ~45K on the low end and ~100K on the high end. So this is still a very conservative number based on the actions of other RV-10 builders.

5) The upholstery cost is pretty conservative too, based on the pricing I've received to this point. But it's probably a good middle of the road estimate.

6) Painting, you can save good money here by painting yourself. I'm not doing it myself because I don't want to screw up a beautiful airplane at the 11th hour because I decided to get cheap at the last minute. This is a reasonable cost for a nice paint job, but not on the high-end either.

7) This doesn't include any 3rd party items. Geoff's carbon fiber panel, overhead console, center console, or interior panels (all nice stuff-btw), or Sean's door latch, or Andair fuel valves, or parking brakes, or rudder trim, or ______. You get the idea.

8) I know I've missed some big ticket items.


Being a real world RV-10 builder, I've learned a couple of things.

1) Whatever you think it will cost, it's wrong. Add $35-40K for price increases, items that you missed in your estimate, consumables, and scope creep.

2) If I were starting an RV-10 today and expected to go with a new engine, I don't think I'd count on anything less than $180K to get a basic IFR airplane in the air. Experience says likely you'll spend much more before you're done.

3) The final thing I've learned is that RV-10's aren't cheap compared to other RV's. They're cheap when compared to the cost of a new production airplane in its class. But when compared to 2 seat RV's they're just not cheap and can't really be built cheap.

I've found the RV-10 to break the rose-colored lenses worn by new builders when it comes to thinking you can build one at the lower end of the price spectrum. I think this applies to all RV's and not just RV-10's. But a miss of 25%-30% in the pricing estimate of a RV-10 is much more painful than 25%-30% pricing miss on an RV 7,8,9,or 12.

I guess the final-final thing I've learned is that real life gets in way of the most perfect and well thought-out plans. :mad:

Phil
 
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rockwoodrv9 said:
Todd and Brian, good points. I was looking at it through the eyes of a person builing a 9. I agree that the 10 is a different animal and does have a different flying profile and when put against a Cirrus, it is an affordable 4 place for sure. It sounds like both of you have kept a close watch on costs and still getting what you want. The advantage of building continues to shine.

To me, some of the posts just sounded a bit negative and that the costs were always going to be more than expected. Im sure that is mostly true, but there are ways to explain this and still be encouraging to new and prospective builders. The more of us, the stronger all of us are.

rockwood
Click to expand...

I didn't sense any negativity, just a very healthy dose of reality. In the past 15 years I've been hanging out in the RV community I have seen way too many projects abandoned because the builder was not prepared for the time and financial commitment of the project. This usually results in emotional letdown, financial hits and unfortunately, sometimes family trauma.

I have always been very frank when discussing the cost of the project while briefing a potential builder and I continue to think this is the best approach. I much rather see them retain their finances and enthusiasm for aviation instead of falling into a pit they didn't foresee.

This thread is valuable in presenting the true cost of building an RV-10. When the first -10 kits started taking shape there were some extremely shocked builders who hadn't grasped the difference in the scope of the -10 vs the two-place RVs. Some of those kits ended up on the market and were sold at a substantial loss.
 
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encourage - don't discourage

Sam, I am all for reality and knowing the costs before I do a project. As a developer, that is what my whole business life is. If I am off 5% on my current project, that is the cost of a Citation X. I have to live in the real world or I go broke.

To me talking about marriage counseling, divorce, and needing to take trips to Europe, are negative. Even if done as a joke, it does nothing to encourage someone to pursue their dream. Im sure there have been marriage problems that have surfaced because of a build - but maybe there were issues before the build.
 
Phil,

Just to nit-pick a bit:

My memory is that the exhaust and alternator were included in Van's FWF kit price - unless that's changed.

I'm pretty proud of my panel (pictured in page 19 "Show me your panel"). It's basic but fully IFR capable, with IFR GPS, xm wx, an autopilot and independent, battery powered EFIS. It came in at $30K (2010 prices). I did all the labor.

OTOH, a few more "extras":

Sooner or later, you'll out-grow the garage, and have to pay for hangar space to finish. Depending on your location, that can be significant.

Do you want to insure against fire/theft? Especially if you're at a remote airport? Insure against a road accident on the move to the airport? When I was doing this builder's insurance was 1% of declared value.

Finally, this may not be part of the build, but if you use an XIO-540 or other non-certified engine and get a 40 hr fly-off, the cost of gas before you ever take a single passenger is not inconsequential. Nor is the cost of transition training.
 
That could be true, Bob.

According to the web store they are not included, but I can't say for sure as I'm not using their fwf kit.

http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin...34702753-504-21&browse=engines&product=FF_Kit

However, you do mention some other costs that I haven't included and probably should.

If I were just entering the build today, I'd get really comfortable with spending $180K and expect to go over it some. If you're right on budget, then great. If you are under, then that's all gravy at the end of the build that you can use for flyoff and other expenses. If you're too low, your still in striking range of completion, because if you can find $180K, them you can usually find another 10-30K if you need it to finish the last phase of the build.

But experience tells me to bet on the over instead of the under.
 
According the the catalog, they are included... So you can pull them from the list above. I'll update my list too for future use.

Good catch.

Phil
 
Australia added Costs....

:DJust to agree with all out there.....

I think the base prices of $170-$180k are pretty much correct for USA based builds. The issue with being in Oz (and other countries I suspect) is that in Australia we also have an additional 10% Goods and Services Tax added to imported items and International shipping and insurance of between say 3-5% of build price.

That additional cost equates to between $20-30k additional costs over and above a US based build. ~15% more in Oz than US.

That really stings..... but I have to say....

I LOVE BUILDING THE RV-10!!!

:D
 
Without wanting to appear disrespectful I would suggest that budget estimates of what it costs to build an RV are worthless if they come from some-one who has not substantially completed one (and kept accurate purchase records). The problem for newbies doing their theoretical spreadsheet estimates is that they simply don't know what they don't know. ;)

The cost of procuring workshop equipment, the ONGOING purchase (and replacement) of tools, the incidental costs of a million miscellaneous items such as protective gloves, respiratory masks, safety goggles, sandpaper, solvents, fibreglassing tools and chemicals...it all adds up enormously over time. Then there's the never ending cost of all the equipment and fittings that don't come with the kits.... the joystick handle, the heated pitot, the fire extinguisher, the prop governor, the battery....it just goes on and on and on. And you'll need to wire your aircraft....more specialised tools, lots more electrical gadgets, lots of wire, hundreds of terminals.

And as you approach completion you begin to realise that you need to start buying tools to perform proper maintenance....pressure tester, timing light, oil filter torque wrench, etc, etc. So you start switching from buying construction tools to buying maintenance tools....but it's all dollars.

Of course you can pretend that a lot of these items aren't part of the real cost of building a plane. Some builders I know don't consider the cost of anything that doesn't get fitted to the aircraft. They ignore the cost of building insurance, aircraft transportation to an airport, hangar rental for final assembly. But to do this is absolutely a nonsense. The REAL cost of building is the total cost of every dollar spent in the pursuit of getting an aircraft into the air and having the maintenance equipment at hand to keep it flying safely.
 
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Agreed Captain....

Yep. I agree fully with CA.

I myself have not included the hangerage and transportation yet (I have some friends with big equipment....hahahaha... however, there will no doubt be other expenses.

I keep pretty detailed logs and have purchased alot of the electrical. Basic calculated wires and some minor tools were $800....

Just makes me think I need to add another $20k to MY estimate....

:eek:
 
Yep, all said and done painted and trimmed etc....Andrew's estimate is right on the money with our actuals.

now we did the avionics in house but had some pro help elsewhere, so that is a cost some folk do not factor in either.

I can tell you though, after 600 hours on the clock.....we regret NOTHING!:)
 
$179,513.77

That includes the Avery Tool Kit for the RV-10 that I bought immediately after leaving Van's booth at 2006 Sun 'n fun. It also includes Sean's fabulous 180 degree door handle modification. It does not include the toys I bought later, such as belt sanders, drill press, and fun stuff from Harbor Freight. The figure above is direct purchases for the airplane.

By the way, you will have some State Taxes and fees to pay - whether you like it or not. In Georgia, I pay an annual ad valorem tax on the airplane that is the same rate as a home that costs the same. The Georgia Sales Tax people also caught up with me on unpaid sales tax for stuff purchased out of state, such as the kit. They simply wait for you to show up in the FAA aircraft database, and track you down.

Insurance and a hangar cost me about $500 a month. Then there are the Hundred Dollar Hamburgers and Pancakes....

John
 
I've seen some great posts in this thread, especially a recent one by Bob Barrows. I get emails all the time from people wanting to build a -10. Everyone knows it's a dream plane and wants one. But, I feel that while adding another builder to the list and the camaraderie of the built is nice, what is even nicer to that individual is ensuring that they have a realistic view of the financial committment they make when they start the kit. How would you feel if your best buddies talked you in to buying a sports car to be in their car club, and you KNEW it would be a blast, but you were right on the edge financially. Then you a) lose your job, or b) have some other unfortunate life event, and end up bankrupt and lose your beautiful car? That's the reality of how it is these days. So my advice is to treat the airplane as a complete luxury...something that if you lost ALL of your investment into it, would not break you financially, and you could live with that. If you can, and it's all discretionary income you're spending, then great....go for it. We need more active pilots and more RV builders. But, we need more active pilots MORE than we need more RV builders...so if you are not in a position to build an RV-10 that costs more than the house I live in, take up aviating in some other plane. I could have owned a nice certified plane for the price of my RV-10, and prepaid my maintenance for the rest of my life most likely. No, it wouldn't be as nice as my RV-10, and I'm fortunate to have been able to build what I did. I'm glad I did it. But, you can't look at a kit as being a cost-saving way to fly or you will be disappointed.

Rest assured that after you complete the build, your costs will not end. Every year you will spend money on things you didn't anticipate. Most builders don't even anticipate the FLYOFF costs to get the thing out of Phase 1...you're going to spend $5/gal * 13gph * 25-40 hours just to get it fueled for the flyoff, and another $3000ish the week before you start, to insure the kit. And once you get it flown off, you'll want to use it continuously to keep the rust out of both you and your plane. I'm sure many of us spend > 10,000/yr just in flying our RV-10's. So Bob's right...the new builder doesn't know what he doesn't know, and helping shine the light on that isn't negative...you're doing it because you actually care about the person and their financial future. We *should* go into it with some fear and trepidation...it's what keeps us from doing stupid things that we are incapable of completing.

Even the comments about the marital issues have some relevance, even if they are tongue-in-cheek. You can be assured that when you start a kit, wether it takes as long as you expected or not to complete it, it will FEEL like it takes a long, long, looooong time. While it may be hard to burn yourself out if you're highly motivated, you will far more easily cause your family to be tired of the process if they don't have your same level of motivation. So you really DO need to spend some time, and money, on things for the family. We put off so many things that one of the duties I had after finishing was also paying for some other improvements and items that I had pushed off while I built.


So enough rambling for me, but I really view this as an issue where the person really has to come first. If someone is your friend, you'd want them to make good financial and personal choices, not rash decisions based on a hot desire for an awesome plane. If in the end they can justify the 100% recreational spending of >$150,000, and a committment to about $10,000/yr towards their flying after building, then encourage them, help them get started, and support them along the way. If they can't justify it, help them move into aviation in something they CAN do. Even if they buy a tired old 172, they'll be flying and supporting our cause, and they will have some cash tied up that will provide a good nest egg for them when they need to bankroll their IO-540 along the way....which they can sell their 172 to pay for. Better to save up the cash until you have >50% saved, and THEN start the kit. Trust me, if you are a HIGHLY MOTIVATED builder, you can finish a -10 in 2-3 years....and you don't want to run out of cash during the build because that can turn you into an unmotivated builder. For those that find their way through to the end, the rewards are truly better than they could ever imagine, and more than they can effectively express.

Tim
 
TimO said:
So my advice is to treat the airplane as a complete luxury...something that if you lost ALL of your investment into it, would not break you financially, and you could live with that. If you can, and it's all discretionary income you're spending, then great....go for it.

Tim
Click to expand...

Tim, that was a fantastic post, should be required reading for all prospective builders.

Thanks!
 
I agree with Tim 100%. It may sound harsh, but, unless a perspective builder has on-hand $150K + that they could live without, they should think twice about starting a project like this.
 
Tim....INDEED!!

I get a bit short, and some may say harsh about the realities of life, and I have a saying that we use at work all the time..... "It is what it is!"

Considering the original question was for an RV10 downunder, and 2012 prices not 2006, adding freight insurance and then local GST.....if you are down here plan on $220+K, sure $180K is possible bare basic and used engines etc. But the facts remain.

I am glad you mention operating costs in your post, as you say, they get forgotten, and it is not just fuel.

The TOTAL cost of operating, from fuel to Jepps, renewals and cost of capital, for us is $225/hr. :eek:

Yes this is true and we fly 220hrs + a year. Even if you take off a small portion for our higher fuel costs and some other things, I reckon the numbers for the typical -10 owner is not less than $175-180/hr.

Factor in hangarage, even if you own it or it is on your property, there is a cost. Medicals, charts, database updates, tools here and there, headset or two every so often. Cost of capital, how much would you have earned if you had that $200k invested, or how much are you paying in interest. If you own the plane outright but have a $200k mortage on your house....that interest is really due to your plane, so count that.

Now do not let your wife see you working this out :eek:

As Tim says, this is discressionary spending. And this is the problem the world has at the moment, too many people forgot what that means.

Anyone else game to honestly run the numbers.

Great post as always Tim!
 
RV10inOz said:
If you own the plane outright but have a $200k mortage on your house....that interest is really due to your plane, so count that.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to comment on this. I'm just going to quote it and leave it out there as a bit of financial reality that pretty much all of the aircraft owners I ever talk to seem to forget :)

- mark
 
Thanks guys...
Regarding operating costs here in the U.S., I guess we have it pretty lucky. The last time I looked which was admittedly a couple years ago, I was right around $125-135/hr operating costs. This includes things like engine reserve and maintenance, but not upgrades and "nice to have" additions. I don't factor in headsets and all the gizmos or anything else. Mine also will be on the low side compared to many, because I own my hangar, which in my neck of the woods a T-hangar can be had outright for about $16-17K (I paid far less, but had an unusual deal), and my ANNUAL hangar cost is only $425-475/year. I've contemplated taking a different job and moving away, but many of the places I'd go, that would be the MONTHLY cost.

The numbers for hourly operating costs are far easier to guestimate than the overall kit build cost...but I'd say most people will likely be in the $125-175/hr range depending on where they live and where they hangar and their time in type. (OMG after typing this I went back and did the math and with over 800 hours that means I've now spent over $100K just flying this darn thing)

When it comes to kit build costs, I'm still no expert, but after flying now for 6+ years, I can tell you that my initial plan was only short by $70,000 or so. :eek: After I built it, I found it very hard the first 2 or 3 years, to catch up on my savings...flying took most of my discretionary income. Last year I took a big step....I figured if I dedicated myself to saving as hard as I dedicated myself to the RV-10, I could do good things. So, I flew a little less and paid off my house. Now I'm 100% debt free and plan to stay that way. At this point I can finally get ahead a little....and I'm shifting gears and going to start shoveling it towards my much neglected retirement fund. I let other priorities take over for too long and I see that clearly now. What good is retirement if you can't fly your RV-10, right?

It's tough to maintain financial sensibility, and I certainly am guilty of taking leaps that I shouldn't have....but I can't with good conscience recommend that to any prospective builder in today's climate. It really breaks my heart when I see someone who I knew from 2003,4,5,6 that I used to see on the forums, selling their incomplete kit.

Tim
 
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Double your estimate!

Somehow, my wife seems to know how much I spend on the build...and mysteriously spends the same amount from her discretionary spending! I expect the build to cost double my original estimate!:eek:

In all seriousness, it has been difficult to spend so much on my hobby and ask my wife to hold off on her spending. A compromise must be reached that is fair to all, and that is exactly where the previous discussion of the impact of a build on ones life is coming from. It impacts everything, not just the financial side of your world. That is the reality of it...and should not be seen as a negative comment, but rather an observation, That said, I'd do it again in a heartbeat..and I'm not even flying yet.
 
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