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Bad RV Behavior at Triple Tree

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N941WR

N941WR

Legacy Member
Today I took one of my neighbor's daughter to Triple Tree's Chili fly-in.

They have a well defined arrival procedure for their large fly-ins; fly over Wally World distribution center, on to the town of Enoree, SC, then left to the airport where you will either turn right and land downhill or cross over and land up hill.

Today the standard pattern was to cross over and land up hill.

I was following a Cessna to the distribution center and was four miles behind when a Champ cut in front of us. No problem for the -9 and I slowed down to stay exactly two miles behind it. (I've never seen a champ with a transponder before.)

just before we reached the town of Enoree my ADS-B started going crazy and warning of traffic 100 to 200 feet above us, less than a 1/4 mile and closing fast.

I could see the N-number on the SkyView so I called them up by number asking if they had us in site but received no reply and they kept coming.

Needless to say, my passenger was a bit concerned as was I.

Finally they stepped out to the right side and stayed there, about 50 to 100 yards off our rightwing through the entire inbound procedure, without talking, even when called by N-number. It was at this time I realized it was an RV-8.

The -8 stayed there through the pattern but I was also down to about 70 knots, following the Champ.

With no idea what the guy was going to do, I continued following the Champ but did notice the -8 rocked his wings.

All I was thinking at this time was what was this yahoo -8 driver going to do and so did the "controllers" at Triple Tree.

I made one of the shortest and quickest landings ever and got off the runway at the end of the first lake. (I probably should have landed long but I know the -8 can't fly final at the 55 knots we were doing to give the Champ some room.)

After securing the plane I walked over to discuss the situation with the -8 driver and all he had to say was that he "had us in sight" and when I asked him why he didn't respond to my radio calls, he said, "You are not supposed to use your radio when coming in here."

Well, that may be true, unless there is a dangerous situation and running up someone's tail is a dangerous situation.

I don't mind flying formation with someone I know, when prearranged and I don't mind formation takeoffs and landings with someone I know, again when prearranged but having this guy come up like he did and not know what he was going to do or was capable of is unacceptable in any book.

If this is the kind of thing that the certified guys see and experience from RV pilot's, then I get their distaste for the RV community.

Fly Safe, Fly Smart!
 
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Bill,

As a previous owner of 2 Champs and 2 Citabria's I will initially say thank you!

As RV owners, we know that we can do the glorious 190kt overhead, but also the 80kt chug a chug approach.

If some dweeb wants to cut you up - go have a word and smile.... If you can.

Sometimes I wish I had both.... A Champ at a strip 2 miles away to let me fly to my airplane 30 miles away :D

We are all Van's Ambassadors who sometimes need to remind the reprobates who and what they represent. Properly put, the 'owner' not 'builder' types usually say - Ooops and after being introduced to this site, cough up and become assimilated.

You know Bill........

Resistance is futile :D:D
 
N941WR said:
Today I took one of my neighbor's daughter to Triple Tree's Chili fly-in.

They have a well defined arrival procedure for their large fly-ins; fly over Wally World distribution center, on to the town of Enoree, SC, then left to the airport where you will either turn right and land downhill or cross over and land up hill.

Today the standard pattern was to cross over and land up hill.

I was following a Cessna to the distribution center and was four miles behind when a Champ cut in front of us. No problem for the -9 and I slowed down to stay exactly two miles behind it. (I've never seen a champ with a transponder before.)

just before we reached the town of Enoree my ADS-B started going crazy and warning of traffic 100 to 200 feet above us, less than a 1/4 mile and closing fast.

I could see the N-number on the SkyView so I called them up by number asking if they had us in site but received no reply and they kept coming.

Needless to say, my passenger was a bit concerned as was I.

Finally they stepped out to the right side and stayed there, about 50 to 100 yards off our rightwing through the entire inbound procedure, without talking, even when called by N-number. It was at this time I realized it was an RV-8.

The -8 stayed there through the pattern but I was also down to about 70 knots, following the Champ.

With no idea what the guy was going to do, I continued following the Champ but did notice the -8 rocked his wings.

All I was thinking at this time was what was this yahoo -8 driver going to do and so did the "controllers" at Triple Tree.

I made one of the shortest and quickest landings ever and got off the runway at the end of the first lake. (I probably should have landed long but I know the -8 can't fly final at the 55 knots we were doing to give the Champ some room.)

After securing the plane I walked over to discuss the situation with the -8 driver and all he had to say was that he "had us in sight" and when I asked him why he didn't respond to my radio calls, he said, "You are not supposed to use your radio when coming in here."

Well, that may be true, unless there is a dangerous situation and running up someone's tail is a dangerous situation.

I don't mind flying formation with someone I know, when prearranged and I don't mind formation takeoffs and landings with someone I know, again when prearranged but having this guy come up like he did and knot know what he was going to do or was capable of is unacceptable in any book.

If this is the kind of thing that the certified guys see and experience from RV pilot's, then I get their distaste for the RV community.

Fly Safe, Fly Smart!
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Hmmm......Don't go to Oshkosh!!!!!!
 
Perhaps the real danger in this situation is that the RV-8 pilot created a serious distraction for you that took a lot of your attention. Good job flying your plane, and it sounds like you handled it well.

I'd have been tempted to break out of the pattern and abort and re-enter, just to get away from the hazard.

That said, it was probably apparent after the first few moments that the RV-8 pilot was going to attempt to maintain separation, in spite of the violation of FAR 91.111. But your concern about the actual landing seems entirely reasonable.

Dave
 
Don't go to Oshkosh?

I have been to Oshkosh twice and never had someone fly formation that was not planned. In fact if it happened I am sure the controllers would have an action to separate us. I agree that the RV8 driver acted irresponsibly but what makes it worse, he doesn't think he did.
 
mike newall said:
Bill,

As a previous owner of 2 Champs and 2 Citabria's I will initially say thank you!
Click to expand...
Mike, the father of the young lady I had with me has built two RV's and currently has a Champ that he has owned since he was 15 and a Chief that his father finished restoring last year, both beautiful planes! My first plane was a '41 T-craft and I have time in Cub's, Champs, Luscombe's, T-Crafts, and soon to be Chief (I hope) so I am well aware of their limitations and fun factor of these great low and slow aircraft! (And I really do my T-Craft!)

tracy said:
Hmmm......Don't go to Oshkosh!!!!!!
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FLY6 said:
I have been to Oshkosh twice and never had someone fly formation that was not planned. In fact if it happened I am sure the controllers would have an action to separate us. I agree that the RV8 driver acted irresponsibly but what makes it worse, he doesn't think he did.
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I have flown into OSH a few times and have been flying down the tracks, in line and the entire line was passed by an Arrow with it's gear down and passengers waving.

Another time I followed a Zenair 801 who couldn't hold altitude or speed and when he climbed, his speed went down even further. After a stall trying to stay behind him I pealed off and went back and got in line again. Tony in his RV-9 was right behind us and said the controllers took the Zenair out of line after I pealed off.

I keep hearing the OSH controller's voice in my ear, "No side-by-side. No passing. White and blue RV, rock your wings. Great rock, ...)

This being my passenger's first big fly-in, it was an eye opener for her and not in a good way!

Something tells me the -8 driver (I refuse to call him a pilot, because pilots usually have good judgement!) was not happy being called out.

I'm still fuming at this idiot's behavior! I was confident he was going to hit us had I not called him on the radio and once he refused to answer, I wasn't sure if I could climb or turn because I had no idea what he was going to do. Sorry if I'm repeating myself.
 
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Glad I didn't go today

I was thinking of flying my Lancair down there from AVL today but decided against it for just the reason you have described. I worked too long and too hard on my plane to risk a midair in some cluster ****. I had a nice, quiet lunch at GMU instead.

Glad your ADS-B worked, though!
 
If you have his tail number would it make sense to report him somehow for everyone's benefit. Seems like we need to try to take stronger action as a group. Otherwise the next incident might not work out.
 
tfoster100 said:
If you have his tail number would it make sense to report him somehow for everyone's benefit. Seems like we need to try to take stronger action as a group. Otherwise the next incident might not work out.
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No, I think being called out in front of his child and a few friends that had gathered around him was probably enough.

He got really pissed off, which was good. I hope that means he realizes he made a mistake and hopefully learned something from it.

I heard from a friend who volunteers at TT who saw us fly over the field side-by-side and his words were "WTF were you doing?" When I explained it to him he understood.
 
snopercod said:
I was thinking of flying my Lancair down there from AVL today but decided against it for just the reason you have described. I worked too long and too hard on my plane to risk a midair in some cluster ****. I had a nice, quiet lunch at GMU instead.

Glad your ADS-B worked, though!
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Bummer we didn't catch up! I promised my wife I would be home by 1 for a family outing so we didn't even stay for the food.

Just dropped in to say "Hi" to a bunch of friends and blasted out for home.
 
Wrong...

luddite42 said:
Chill with the self righteous RV vigilantism. Nothing too noteworthy happened here except for some hurt feelings.
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I disagree...

First off, I've got a lot of time leading and on the wing from my military days, So I've been around the block a time or two regarding formation and I am not a "hater" regarding the subject. In fact, I enjoy it in my RV, when I've been given the opportunity.

Others outside the RV community (or for that matter non-aviators in general) don't take the same view. Far from it, in fact.

My wife would be very worried with this kind of proximity to another aircraft, and I would be very p*ssed off that someone would approach close enough to trigger that emotion in her after I've worked very hard to settle her fears about flying with me and things RV-aviation-related.

Sounds like this was handled on the ground with civility...I can only hope that I'd act the same way...but gotta admit, I'd be seeing red...
 
Courtesy

The rv8 driver who said that you don't use radio at that fly-in could have answered the radio call and made for less radio use by the pilot he was crowding, there would not have been repeated calls.
 
Aggie78 said:
I disagree...

First off, I've got a lot of time leading and on the wing from my military days, So I've been around the block a time or two regarding formation and I am not a "hater" regarding the subject. In fact, I enjoy it in my RV, when I've been given the opportunity.

Others outside the RV community (or for that matter non-aviators in general) don't take the same view. Far from it, in fact.

My wife would be very worried with this kind of proximity to another aircraft, and I would be very p*ssed off that someone would approach close enough to trigger that emotion in her after I've worked very hard to settle her fears about flying with me and things RV-aviation-related.

Sounds like this was handled on the ground with civility...I can only hope that I'd act the same way...but gotta admit, I'd be seeing red...
Click to expand...

I get that, totally....just not calling the FAA and **** like that over this. Discussion was had in person.
 
luddite42 said:
I get that, totally....just not calling the FAA and **** like that over this. Discussion was had in person.
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Got it and concur.

Limitations of posting on a website is a relative inability to determine "tone". I was getting a different vibe when reading your posting from what you were attempting to convey.

Talk first. FAA only as a last resort to prevent injury or save a life...

Thanks for clarifying.
 
I love RVs and basically all homebuilts. I cannot be impressed by anything the breed can do more than their operators fitting in and doing it correctly in the air and on the ground.

Good on you for speaking up both in the air while flying properly and on the ground to the offender.

Though RVs and pilots are rare in the world, none are rare enough or cool enough to merit their own code at a gathering in the USA.

I liken this to my first airshow briefing by the late Bill Dodds. He asked if I was going to do anything noteworthy with my vanilla S1S and newly minted 800' card. I said no, sir. He said- good news- wind is off the crowdline. Bad news, I'm going to come out to watch you land in the crosswinds!

I knew right there I was only to impress the pilots I respected if not feared by fitting in and flying cleanly. That lesson over 20 years ago serves me well to this day

May your talk prove as effective.

If it matters, also a military formation lead in my youth. I had friends that should have been there today in slow, blind cabin Wacos, flying by the book.
 
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Bill, that is why I installed 2 AIM 9s. And a centerline 20 mm. On my RV 9A. If I can't catch-em I can shoot em! Next will be chaff and flare. Oh'. Just finished up with the ECM mods. I think I am ready for Oshkosh!
 
moosepileit said:
...
I liken this to my first airshow briefing by the late Bill Dodds. ..

If it matters, also a military formation lead in my youth. I had friends that should have been there today in slow, blind cabin Wacos, flying by the book.
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Now there is name I haven't heard in a long time. He was a good man!

Bob & Barb P. were there with theirs as Jim W. and his wife. There was a third Cabin WACO there and I met the owner but don't recall his name.

It was a good fly in and we'll attended.
 
You can as JW about RK anytime, it is he of whom I spoke. I know folks that hold an FAA safety FAAST team middle-ground card- they might also serve as non-official intermediaries in such a situation against someone unapproachable.

The one I know is rebuliding a Rocket, has a T-6 and was my Pitts instructor.
 
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There i was....

I remember flying gliders at Rosamond in the late 70's ( i solo'd when i was 4 :) ). My first time in a thermal with Paul Bickle i kept on bailing out Because i thought we were getting too close. Afterwards,on the ground, Paul asked what I was doing. He said that he had me in sight the whole time and there was no need to bail. I trusted him so never did that again. But if it was somebody else propably would bail again.

In my opinion it takes two to tangle. I doesnt matter who is right or who is wrong. Each of us is responsible for a safe flight. If i ever feel un comfortable with a situation. I hope i am a good enough pilot to recognize and resolve the conflict
 
PilotjohnS said:
In my opinion it takes two to tangle. I doesnt matter who is right or who is wrong. Each of us is responsible for a safe flight. If i ever feel un comfortable with a situation. I hope i am a good enough pilot to recognize and resolve the conflict
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My immediate thought as well. A lot of indignation in this thread.

We've all been in this situation.
 
AndyRV7 said:
PilotjohnS[/quote said:
In my opinion it takes two to tangle. I doesnt matter who is right or who is wrong. Each of us is responsible for a safe flight. If i ever feel un comfortable with a situation. I hope i am a good enough pilot to recognize and resolve the conflict
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My immediate thought as well. A lot of indignation in this thread.

We've all been in this situation.
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I was waiting for these type of comments to show up. That really didn't take long.

It was obvious the -8 driver had ADS-B, thus knew I was there and yet he still chose to fly up my tailpipe. Assuming his ADS-B alarm went off at about the same time as mine, he continued to close in on me until I made the first radio call. After that, without comment he elected to fly off my right wing wing.

Why I didn't bail out was simple, with someone directly behind me and gaining, a turn, climb, or descent may have lead me right into his flight path.

A call to him on the radio was the safest move, until he moved off my wing and even then it wasn't clear if he was trying to land or just fly formation.

In this case, I'm not sure there were two that were tangling. One was trying to and the other (me) was rejecting it.

To be clear, when we fell in line behind the Champ, there were no other ADS-B transponder targets in the area. I based on the closure rate of the -8, I suspect he ripped over the turn point (Walmart Distribution center) and caught us faster than he expected. Still, known he had ADS-B and flying into a crowded airport, he should have slowed down way out. After all, there were a lot of no-electric aircraft (no radios and no ADS-B) going in there, as there always is.

There was nothing this guy did that was safe.
 
I'm sorry you had a bad experience today. While I am not the -8 driver being discussed in this thread I did fly my newly acquired -8 to TT today with my instructor as a very nice detour durning tailwheel training. This was my first time coming into TT (or any large fly in for that matter). I must say it was an amazing experience flying the arrival procedure with so much activity happening around us! Having my instructor with me added a large amount of "comfort level" and I can certainly say that had I been by myself in an aircraft I am not yet 100% proficient, I can see how this situation could have made me uncomfortable pretty quickly had I not been able to establish communication with the other aircraft. I guess all I am trying to say is that you never know who is in the plane you are flying close proximity to and what they are going to do and are capable of doing. But for me it was an amazing experience coming into TT, checking out all the planes and watching all the planes take off in front of me as I awaited my turn to depart! I am very much looking forward to the next time!
 
Can't Trust If You Don't Know

Bill is absolutely correct to be 'upset' about this behavior. If someone pulls in close without briefing, without communicating, and especially in busy airspace, I'm immediately thinking " I've got possible trouble nearby and, what's next"? Is he going to try to land next to me or worse yet, is he going to drop in close behind and possibly over-run me on the rollout. Should I land short and attempt a fast exit? I know his stall speed is higher. Should I slow down to allow more spacing for anyone in front of me and risk him passing me. Should I land long and hope he knows what he's doing? I've never been to Triple Tree, but I assume this is done with far less control than Oshkosh. So much of our flying, whether VFR or IFR, is done with the expectation that everyone is following the same playbook. When that doesn't happen, it's pretty tough to trust the next move will be something we expect.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
Adsb

This is why I am glad that I installed adsb out and now have (mostly) a full traffic picture. I am amazed at the number of planes I now see in or near the traffic pattern that are not communicating or reporting their position incorrectly. It has been a real eye opener for me
 
Bill, I love you brother, but I hear several things with this thread. First, the moment you became aware of what you felt was a collision hazard with your ADS-B info, you should have broken out. You didn't serve you passenger well continuing. Second, there are two sides to every story. And many times the perspectives are slightly different. Last, you decided to fly to a large fly in with a special arrival procedure. Sounds crowded. Why is having someone pop up next to you a surprise?

And yes, lot of wound up indignation here. But typical for this board.

Last, to the guy wanting to call the Feds. Really?!
 
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I think the salient points have been made, lot's to consider. Let's let this one simmer.
 
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