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My Zip Tip III wingtips arrived!

rongawer

Well Known Member
I ordered these things back 2018 and was surprised and happy to get a shipping notice last week. The units look great and with a reported 175,000 candela of landing lights, I expect they’ll do the job.

I haven’t figured out how to get my pictures show up here directly, but the links work. I took several photos and have them on my builder’s log at N762G Build Log if you want to see more.

showmy.php

showmy.php
 
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Ron, very anxious to hear if you have no noise on the radios. The IIIs are supposed to fix a lot of issues.
 
The cost was $2990 with $200 shipping.

These units were tested against a GTN with no noise, so I'm hopeful. According to Damien at Aveo, the noise issue with the first version was specific to Garmin's GTN series radios and was resolved with added noise isolation on the module power supplies on version 2, so hopefully still resolved on these.

I haven't bought the avionics for my 10 yet, but I am doing wiring with a focus on good grounding. I use all twisted pairs for unshielded wire with individual grounds back to a grounding block and ensure shielding is properly grounded for my shielded wires. It's more work, but I've never had a noise issue on any of my airplanes. In any event, I'll let you know if there's an issue with these units.
 
Please post after you fly the aircraft. Would love to hear if they have any effect on handling in the roll axis.
George
 
Ouch! For that much, I’d expect them to do a lot more for me than just light up the runway. :D
Expensive, yes...but they do looknice

Right...they do a little more than just light up the runway, although they do that with more directed light than any other landing light I’ve seen available for an RV - these do replace all of the exterior lights needed and is a complete kit, including Amphenol circular connectors and pins. Then take into account the cost of Van’s wingtips, your desired brand of landing lights, taxi lights, position lights (including rear), and strobes, plus all of the mounting hardware, wiring, connectors and lenses. If you price out units that will produce the same candella and deduct the unused parts from your kit, it’s not much more for these.

Then add the fact that the modules are already mounted, the fit on the wings and finish is good, will light up your world and just generally look cool, I consider it a good value, especially if you think about all the other stuff I’ve blown money on for airplanes (for a really good time, price out a starter adapter for a Continental IO-550).

Please post after you fly the aircraft. Would love to hear if they have any effect on handling in the roll axis.
George
I doubt there would be anything for me to notice as I will not have flown my RV before installing these, so I won’t have a reference to compare to. Why do you expect any effect on roll? They do have a minor winglet, but any effect at the wingtip would be induced on both sides. There isn’t any data or testing to show these winglets have any real effect, other than to create conversations... although I’m sure they have to be worth at least 10 knots...:cool:
 
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I reached out to Damien this past week seeking data on the install, and he had a reply that said they were waiting on some data still.

I was overall curious how the wingtips affect cruise and takeoff rolls in the RV10. Hadn't considered the roll axis itself. I just read a paper on Wingtips on GA aircraft and the effect at cruise vs hp of the engine. In that paper it made the IO-540 look like it could see benefits of the wingtips at the higher speeds.
 
Please let me know if you see a 0.25 second (or so) delay when powering up a light?

I have a VPX-Pro, and the delay causes the VPX Wig-Wag function to be useless. The 0.25 second delay only started after we got replacement modules that solved the Garmin radio static issue.
 
I reached out to Damien this past week seeking data on the install, and he had a reply that said they were waiting on some data still.

I was overall curious how the wingtips affect cruise and takeoff rolls in the RV10. Hadn't considered the roll axis itself. I just read a paper on Wingtips on GA aircraft and the effect at cruise vs hp of the engine. In that paper it made the IO-540 look like it could see benefits of the wingtips at the higher speeds.


Interested in the flight test data, more cruise and climb. I like the design of the lights and was considering for my build.
 
Right...they do a little more than just light up the runway, although they do that with more directed light than any other landing light I?ve seen available for an RV - these do replace all of the exterior lights needed and is a complete kit, including Amphenol circular connectors and pins. Then take into account the cost of Van?s wingtips, your desired brand of landing lights, taxi lights, position lights (including rear), and strobes, plus all of the mounting hardware, wiring, connectors and lenses. If you price out units that will produce the same candella and deduct the unused parts from your kit, it?s not much more for these.

Then add the fact that the modules are already mounted, the fit on the wings and finish is good, will light up your world and just generally look cool, I consider it a good value, especially if you think about all the other stuff I?ve blown money on for airplanes (for a really good time, price out a starter adapter for a Continental IO-550).


I doubt there would be anything for me to notice as I will not have flown my RV before installing these, so I won?t have a reference to compare to. Why do you expect any effect on roll? They do have a minor winglet, but any effect at the wingtip would be induced on both sides. There isn?t any data or testing to show these winglets have any real effect, other than to create conversations... although I?m sure they have to be worth at least 10 knots...:cool:

I asked because I saw a prior post that mentioned higher roll forces with the tips.
G
 
Please let me know if you see a 0.25 second (or so) delay when powering up a light?

I have a VPX-Pro, and the delay causes the VPX Wig-Wag function to be useless. The 0.25 second delay only started after we got replacement modules that solved the Garmin radio static issue.

I turned them on using a using my 12V ground power supply and didn’t notice any delays, although truthfully, my eyes may not be able to perceive a 1/4 of a second delay.

On my current RV, I use my VP-X provided wig-wag as it is speed configurable and I plan to not hook up the wig-wag function on these units, but do the same thing on my 10, so I’ll look for this delay issue if it exists in my units.
 
I’m getting the same issue with my Advanced Flight Systems ACM using its auto wigwag feature. The delay on the lights powering up is causing the ACM wig wag feature to not work. A bummer for sure, maybe there’s a way to fix it without having to rely on another switch in the cockpit.
 
I?m getting the same issue with my Advanced Flight Systems ACM using its auto wigwag feature. The delay on the lights powering up is causing the ACM wig wag feature to not work. A bummer for sure, maybe there?s a way to fix it without having to rely on another switch in the cockpit.


Glad it isn't just me. I had a video of it, but I can't find it now.
 
I bought my AVEO wingtips at Oshkosh in 2017 and will be putting them on this summer. Do I have the first version? And, will I have an issue with radio noise using Dynon's radio?
 
Working fine for me.

I installed the model III wingtips this summer. Havent painted them yet because they look quite good out of the box in well finished white gelcoat. More importantly:

1. Noise: I utilized the wiring from the earlier Whelen setup. There is no noise on radio use. If I manually override squelch, I can hear a bit of pulse sound on one radio, but it doesnt disrupt reception. And, no noise ever when squelch is left "on" in normal operation.

2. Lights: The lights are bright, a big improvement from the single leading edge Duckworks fixture, even compared to the LED replacement I had been running. (I left that light operational.) That said, the separate taxi light circuit is not worth messing with since the taxi lights alone are not bright enough to taxi with. If I did it again, I would just wire the taxi lights with the landing light circuit and save the need for a separate switch.

I use the Advanced Flight Systems ACM (which I highly recommend and will use again in the Rans S-21 I'm building). The ZipTip pulse mode for the landing lights works fine with it on the 8. The lights are wired directly to the Right and Left landing light circuits on the ACM. If you tried using the ZipTips flash mode AND the ACM pulse mode, maybe there is a conflict of some kind. I have the ACM set to pulse above 85 knots and go steady "on" below that. The switch also allows "on" regardless of airspeed, if you prefer.

3. Roll: I can't say for sure, but I don't think the roll rate changed perceptibly. I don't fly acro in the plane, which might draw out a difference. For my standard maneuvering, I don't sense any difference.
 
Pics and cost

I?ll get some pics soon, but will have to email to you. (Went by airport earlier today, but hadn?t seen you message.)

As to cost, I?m not sure it?s as bad as I (and others) first thought. If you add the cost of new wingtips, LED nav lights, two wing strobes, rear facing strobes, and two wing landing (taxi, if you count them separately), I don?t think this system is much more. ACS prices the RV kits at 1400-1835$ Which includes the strobes, navs and 2 landing lights (price range depends on the landing lights you choose). Then wingtips at $470 ($234x 2). Just kicking some figures around.
 
I added some photos of the tips lit up with a power supply and also short video of the strobes going. My synopsis of the lights, albeit in the garage - on my substantially messy workbench, is that they're very bright in comparison to my HID's on the Baron and AeroSun's on my other RV - totally eyeball calibrated :D

After making up a pushbutton to simulate wig-wag and using a 12V power supply, I powered up the landing and taxi modules. I do note a slight delay when the landing modules light. I do agree it is a couple tenths of second. But then I connected both modules and let the wingtip wig tag module do its thing and they pulsed just fine - albeit with a gentle pulse - pulse. I didn't notice as much delay, almost imperceptible, on the taxi lights, so using those for WW might be an alternate option. They use the same light module for taxi, with two, as the landing, which has three, so maybe its all related to powering up the extra light module.

I don't have my VP-X module yet, but when I get it I'll try this out on the bench. In the meantime, I've asked Chad at Astronics for help with possibly extending the pulse time and slow down the wig-wig a little.

Build Log ZipTips
 
I don't have my VP-X module yet, but when I get it I'll try this out on the bench. In the meantime, I've asked Chad at Astronics for help with possibly extending the pulse time and slow down the wig-wig a little.

Build Log ZipTips

I asked the same thing a while ago of him and it wasn't available then.

He's local to me, perhaps I try to meet up with him to show him the issue.
 
I asked the same thing a while ago of him and it wasn't available then.

He's local to me, perhaps I try to meet up with him to show him the issue.

He told me they were hoping to do an update to the VP-X later this year, but look for any new features, which adjusting pulse time is on the list, in 2021 sometime. In the meantime, I'm going to wire up the built-in wig-wag so I can manual activate if pulsing these lights on the VP-X doesn't work out.
 
Amperages and wire

I decided to hook up both wingtips last evening with my Fluke meter and do some testing and validation. I also did a thorough inspection of the entire tips and am pleased with the quality of design and construction. Note that the wingtips are made in the Czech Republic. And while the strobe, position and rear light modules are made by Aveo directly, the landing and taxi LED modules are custom made by Khatod in Italy; they have some of the coolest looking heat sink modules at about 3” long with a dozen spikes. (see Khatod Optical)

I found the following peak amperages for the separate light modules:
Landing: 2.51A
Taxi/Recog: 1.65A
NAV: .69A
Strobe: 1.52A

These current flows are per wing tip and both wingtips were within 0.01A of each other. I’m planning to install shielded wire in three bundles:
- 18GA-3C fo the two common ground leads from each wingtip and landing lights power.
- 20GA-3C for taxi, nav and strobe power
- 22GA-3C for wig-wag control, wig-wag sync and strobe sync

I could probably get away with using unshielded twisted pair, but the shielding, grounded at both ends, will be very quiet from an emission perspective. A tip to consider; ground the shield at both ends to keep the noise in (i.e. strobes), ground at the LRU end to keep the noise out (i.e. LEMO jacks). The Garmin installation manual does a great job of identifying shielding on their interconnection drawings and are a great resource. I do not ground any devices to the airframe except at my ground block and engine mount, rather I ground the shield to a ground wire, generally within the cable bundle...fine Navy training.

When using the internal wig-wag control, the taxi/recognition lights pulse quite nicely. I plan to install these on two separate power pins on my VP-X and then will also include a spot and wire for a separate Wig-Wag switch in the event the VP-X doesn’t pulse the recognition modules correctly.

I also noted that the landing modules do take about 0.2 seconds to go from 0 to full amperage whereas the taxi/recog modules take about 0.12 seconds.

If you’re really bored and want to become savvier on wiring, download and read the Navy Electricity and Electronics Training modules. I have a set on the shelf from 1979 - turns out they’ve made some updates in the last four decades and they have a new set available for download. Great stuff on wiring and grounding if you really want to go MILSPEC.
 
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Grounding Both Ends of Shields?

Ron,

I'm not familiar with Navy ways (thanks for going that route, incidentally). In heavy industry we only shield one end due to potential (no pun intended) for a ground loop.

Do you know why they ground both sides? (Is the possibility for a ground loop mitigated by the short distance between grounded points and anticipated low differentials in voltage?

BTW, the tips are simply beautiful.

Thanks,
Mike
 
Ron,

I'm not familiar with Navy ways (thanks for going that route, incidentally). In heavy industry we only shield one end due to potential (no pun intended) for a ground loop.

Do you know why they ground both sides? (Is the possibility for a ground loop mitigated by the short distance between grounded points and anticipated low differentials in voltage?

BTW, the tips are simply beautiful.

Thanks,
Mike

Thanks Mike.

The short version is that to create a ground loop, you need to have a difference in potentials between both ends of the circuit, which in this case would be one of end of the shielded cable versus the other. And that doesn’t exist in my installation. I’ll explain...

First off, a ship is ungrounded - every energized circuit, including shielding, has a ground or return phase that goes back to the source; this is done to prevent potential between human beings and steel decks and hull (which is a good thing in a wet environment).

Much like ships, airplanes are hulls too. So, you can have your “ship” essentially ungrounded by returning all grounds back to the source. This is commonly referred to as a two-wire system, which I use and advocate.

Incidentally, in my current career (pun intended), I build and manage power plants. We have both open (one end) and closed (both ends) grounded circuits for the various reasons we’re discussing. However, there are two different topics here, single wire vs two wire and open vs closed grounding. The thing is that you don’t have to only use one method for an airplane, especially a metal hull airframe. You can mix and match as needed by each system; it just makes it a little more complicated to ensure which systems are grounded which way and document, document, document...

I have a return ground for each load that runs back to a ground block that is a single ground point for the electrical system. Now, most airplanes don’t live in salt water (some do) and you can do a hybrid system which has some grounds to the hull, but I would limit this to only small loads that do not generate EMF. I would run my strobe lights back to ground, but having a stall warner go to hull ground would be fine.

For my circuits, significantly the wingtip lights we’re talking about, I have a ground wire contained within at least one wire bundle, and then I ground my shielding to that ground wire - not to the hull, although mathematically, you can ground both ends to the hull and have the same potential - assuming good conductivity of the airframe. The ground circuit wire ensures a common potential for the circuit, assuming a good copper wire, which has about 0.01 Ω per foot. This method eliminates the potential for a ground loop.

It’s well documented that both single wire and two wire systems work well, however the main advantage of a two wire system, which I use, is minimizing EMF, which creates the noise we hope to avoid. The downside is extra work, cost of the wire and the weight. There’s probably a primer war like forum somewhere for 2 vs 1 wire systems, but because you’ve asked, in my opinion, the effort is minimal (you’re already running one wire to the same spot), the cost is small compared to the total avionics package and the weight is also not significant on the aircraft; I calculated 5.5 pounds extra on my current RV. I want to point out that if you're building a composite or wood airframe, then your only option is a two wire system.

My evidence that my installation method is effective is that the three airplanes I’ve built were done the way I describe and are absolutely noise free. My latest RV (build #4) has a Garmin G3X system, and while running through the magnetometer test, I barely got any deflection while I stepped through the entire test. I’m hoping my latest build (likely my last) will have the same outcome.

My advice is to ground both ends to keep the noise in the circuit, and ground one end to keep the noise out of it...build on.
 
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Interesting Reading

Ron,

Thanks for taking the time to educate me. I have intended to install 2 wire all along, but your write up makes good sense.

Best regards,
Mike
 
Right...they do a little more than just light up the runway, although they do that with more directed light than any other landing light I?ve seen available for an RV - these do replace all of the exterior lights needed and is a complete kit, including Amphenol circular connectors and pins. Then take into account the cost of Van?s wingtips, your desired brand of landing lights, taxi lights, position lights (including rear), and strobes, plus all of the mounting hardware, wiring, connectors and lenses. If you price out units that will produce the same candella and deduct the unused parts from your kit, it?s not much more for these.

Then add the fact that the modules are already mounted, the fit on the wings and finish is good, will light up your world and just generally look cool, I consider it a good value, especially if you think about all the other stuff I?ve blown money on for airplanes (for a really good time, price out a starter adapter for a Continental IO-550).


I doubt there would be anything for me to notice as I will not have flown my RV before installing these, so I won?t have a reference to compare to. Why do you expect any effect on roll? They do have a minor winglet, but any effect at the wingtip would be induced on both sides. There isn?t any data or testing to show these winglets have any real effect, other than to create conversations... although I?m sure they have to be worth at least 10 knots...:cool:

You mentioned recouping some of the cost by not having to buy vans wingtips and other parts. I?m getting ready to order my tail and QB wings. Will vans exclude their tips and deduct them from the price?
 
I also noted that the landing modules do take about 0.2 seconds to go from 0 to full amperage whereas the taxi/recog modules take about 0.12 seconds.

Thank you for taking the time to document that, again glad I'm not the only one experiencing the issue.
 
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