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NEW! Ultimate C/S Prop Wrench Anti Splat Aero

Rv8ter said:
Having followed this thread and really enjoying all the "entertaining" explanations, I can hardly wait for the theoretical discussion and explanations of and for a "ratcheting" open-end wrench!! Oughta be good! :D
Click to expand...

Well you had better be quick because this thread will die in a couple of weeks time !!!!
 
Get your request in early!!!!!!!!!!

:D I will try to get the video up very soon but am currently very busy with our main business. When I arrived at my office today we had just under six hundred e-mails and many orders for prop wrenches and other products (Thank You). All but six stated they were certain we are correct! We will see.
My home is located in the mountains above beautiful Redlands California and we have an over abundance of very large, fat juicy CROWS on my property. Should you few nay-sayers wish, I will save some for you to help make the eating easier. Regards All, Allan:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
PerfTech said:
we have an over abundance of very large, fat juicy CROWS on my property. Should you few nay-sayers wish, I will save some for you to help make the eating easier.Allan:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Guess that seals the deal for me. I was going to send my nosewheel to Allan for his bearing mod.

But with this kind of attitude, which is made entirely OUTSIDE of the spirit of education and recreation, I will no longer be ordering anything from him. I wish you luck in your business, Allan. A little humility and an open mind will go a long way toward not losing more customers in the future.
 
I was going to say that!

Birkelbach said:
The ironic thing about the discussion is that we've shown that the clicker type wrenches care about where the force is applied to the handle and if you stop and think about it carefully the reason is that a clicker type wrench is actually measuring the torque at a slightly offset distance from the center of the nut. So internally it's a torque wrench with a small fixed length extension. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

This is true. And, because the internal pivot is very close to the head, there is a big error from shortening the handle, and a fairly small error for extending it.
With a wrench extension, the correction gets closer to 1.0 as the torque wrench gets longer.

Birkelbach said:
The question really comes down to this... The equation for calculating torque with an extension has been quite thoroughly documented on this forum. The equation has a variable that represents the length of the torque wrench. The argument to support the original claim is that we can eliminate this variable by the choice of our measuring units. I submit that this idea would get you a failing grade on any high school physics test.
Click to expand...

Or an M.I.T. physics test!
 
To sell a product, you need exposure. To get exposure on this site, you must create controversy.

Anyone that has ever owned a torque wrench that had the instructions with it has looked at the chart that explains using an extension. All Allan had to do is make one little statement that went against every torque chart out there and BINGO! his entire first run of wrenches are gone in less than a week.

Now he has two choices. 1, produce the video that will prove the torque wrench world wrong. Or 2, call our bluff and admit it was all in fun knowing the topic would explode.

Waiting for the video............
 
quote:
Guess that seals the deal for me. I was going to send my nosewheel to Allan for his bearing mod.

But with this kind of attitude, which is made entirely OUTSIDE of the spirit of education and recreation, I will no longer be ordering anything from him. I wish you luck in your business, Allan. A little humility and an open mind will go a long way toward not losing more customers in the future.
__________________

Good point, but perhaps you should wait til the shows over. He may yet eat some of that crow he's saving.
 
SENSITIVITY

...This is all in fun, and I was only teasing you guys. Don't be so sensitive. I wouldn't really kill any of my crows! That was joking as well, no animal rights guys please. I am about to make a sizable investment, monetarily and in time as well to create an educational video. I am doing this for you guys, not myself. Please cut me a little slack here. If I am wrong, you can bet I will state so in the video and post an open letter to everyone stating so. Soon we will see! Relax and enjoy the ride. Allan:D
 
PerfTech said:
...This is all in fun, and I was only teasing you guys. Don't be so sensitive. I wouldn't really kill any of my crows! That was joking as well, no animal rights guys please. I am about to make a sizable investment, monetarily and in time as well to create an educational video. I am doing this for you guys, not myself. Please cut me a little slack here. If I am wrong, you can bet I will state so in the video and post an open letter to everyone stating so. Soon we will see! Relax and enjoy the ride. Allan:D
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Absolutely. Whatever the outcome, this will be educational. And the tool is a great product that is worth having, regardless of which side of the fence you are on regarding the relevancy of the length of the torque wrench.

erich
 
Having enjoyed....

all this discussion has the basic principle of torque changed?

In most wrench applications the force relationship may be expressed by the following formula:

F x D = T
FORCE x DISTANCE = TORQUE

Where:

F equals turning force in pounds applied by the Operator.

D equals lever arm or wrench handle in inches or feet.(Whatever the distance)

T equals total force applied to wrench head in pound-feet, kilopoint-meters or Newton-meters

I'll just continue to keep it simple!
My money is with Allan on this one! ;)
 
Whew!

When I first saw this thread and the product, I thought of the mechanic on our field and decided to show it to him and see if he had any interest in it, given that he has to remove and install a lot more C/S props than I. It sure looks like a nifty little tool to have. Before I finished looking for his e-mail address, this thread had grown to 10 pages!

I'd see the thread on the main page and it would jog my memory. Still haven't located his address.

However, in scanning through the last 30+ pages of banter, I saw several posts that contained a whole buncha letters-n-nummers and math symbols that brought back really bad memories. In fact, I started to itch when I read a couple of posts that had engineering formulae.

So, to keep this thread from totally deteriorating (after all, Allan has already alienated one potential customer), I have a serious question for him: Does the wrench need to be PRIMED? :D

Seriously, you engineer-types are in your element. I bow before your intellectual affliction and hope that you will someday find solace in truth.
 
Where should you send your dollars?

Guess that seals the deal for me. I was going to send my nosewheel to Allan for his bearing mod.

But with this kind of attitude, which is made entirely OUTSIDE of the spirit of education and recreation, I will no longer be ordering anything from him. I wish you luck in your business, Allan. A little humility and an open mind will go a long way toward not losing more customers in the future. - ivana
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Good point, but my question is: why would anyone buy the prop wrench from Allan for $70, when they could buy a super Hartzell prop wrench from Avery for $55 ? duh ! ...I could say much more about supporting Avery, who has been one of the good guys.

http://www.averytools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=3528
 
Avery Tool

...The Avery tool is just to tighten up your prop. Ours offers a few nice features not found in some of the others and is actually two tools in one.
...Apparently I am not one of the good guys now?:(:confused::(:confused:
 
Great Tool!

Just used mine for the first time today. I rate tools based on how well they make a task easier. This is a great tool-well made and performed as advertised. Thanks Allan!

Mike
 
PerfTech said:
...The Avery tool is just to tighten up your prop. Ours offers a few nice features not found in some of the others and is actually two tools in one.
...Apparently I am not one of the good guys now?:(:confused::(:confused:
Click to expand...

Allan,

Your prop wrench is awesome! Take it as a grain of salt and keep up the good work. :D
 
New Tool!!!!1

Mel said:
Because.....IT'S A TOOL!!!!!!!!!

You don't need an excuse to buy a tool!
Click to expand...

I agree 100% with you Mel. As soon as this discussion is finished, (one front at a time) I have another tool ready for release that I am certain you will want, that makes another difficult job easier. Perhaps we could send you one Mel for an evaluation and your opinion,
Thanks, Allan:D
 
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Whatever the outcome of this debate, there is just too much information in this thread (including, presumably the much awaited video) for it to be deleted. That would be crazy.

It should be moved to the General Discussions area now so that it forms a part of the archives for future reference.

God forbid that it should be deleted and we have to go through the same argument all over again at some time in the future. :D


[ed. Moved to 'Tools'. br,dr]
 
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Rv8ter said:
all this discussion has the basic principle of torque changed?

In most wrench applications the force relationship may be expressed by the following formula:

F x D = T
FORCE x DISTANCE = TORQUE

Where:

F equals turning force in pounds applied by the Operator.

D equals lever arm or wrench handle in inches or feet.(Whatever the distance)

T equals total force applied to wrench head in pound-feet, kilopoint-meters or Newton-meters

I'll just continue to keep it simple!
My money is with Allan on this one! ;)
Click to expand...

The argument is not over the basic principle of torque.............

The argument is over "How A Torque Wrench Functions."
 
gasman said:
The argument is not over the basic principle of torque.............

The argument is over "How A Torque Wrench Functions."
Click to expand...

I am not making any statements as to how anyone's torque wrench functions, where they should grip it or advocating the use of a piece of pipe on the end of it. I am saying how to properly use our tool or any torque adapter and will try to shoot a video tomorrow night. In this case "IT aint over till the fat guy makes video":D
 
The disscusion

PerfTech said:
All foot lb. torque wrenches are the same regardless of handle overall length. The overall length only effects how hard you need to pull on it. on a foot lb. torque wrench the .8 multiplier is exactly and always the number. It is not rounded off and it never changes as long as the crows foot or our tool is 3" and in installed straight.
Click to expand...

This statment is the one in question. And the safe use of torque wrenches longer than 12"

Safety first.
 
380mxc said:
This statment is the one in question. And the safe use of torque wrenches longer than 12"

Safety first.
Click to expand...

You don't need to talk safety to me. If you have been to our web site you would be aware that all of our offerings are pointed to improve safety. We have invested many thousands in developing and importing products for the RV community. I intend to address this safety issue is my video that will be up in a few days. After posting the video, I will put the prop wrenches up again in the classifieds, for now I won't sell any more until this is put to bed. Allan
 
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Good Guys

Hey Allan you will always be one of the Good Guys in my book!

Keep developing items like this, dont let this little side show stop you coming up with good engineering solutions.

I think your nose job is great and I might be in a position to order one next month, hopefully Peter will have got his through the UK system by then.
 
x .8 ?? debate

The debate here is the accuracy of using the x .80 conversion for getting the desired fastener torque when using a 3 inch torque extension regardless of the torque wrench effective handle length.

Any debate on where to grip the torque wrench or adding extensions to the handle has little merit. The wrenches are calibrated with the handle pulled at a particular spot and videos show that final torque can be effected by hand position. Using a different technique would require verification to show accuracy. Just because it clicks or indicates a value does not mean that the indicated value is the same as the fastener actual torque value without verification.

The industry standard is to use the formula in FAA AC 43.13-1B (chapter 7), instructions that come with the torque wrench or the formula posted in this thread. They are all the same. The result of the formula is different for different torque wrench effective handle lengths. When using a 3 inch extension the .8 formula only works with a 12 inch effective handle length.

I have a digital Snap-On 1/2 drive torque wrench with an effective handle length of 22.18 inches (total handle length, center of square to handle end, is 25.375 inches). Using the 43.13 formula when torquing a Harzell prop to 65ft/lb the S-O wrench would require a 57.25 ft/lb indicated setting/reading when using a 3 inch torque extension. If the .8 formula was used with the S-O wrench, the indicated wrench setting/reading would be 52 ft/lb (65 x .8). When taking the 43.13 formula and converting the indicated 52 ft/lb (from the .8 formula) back to the actual torque at the fastener the result is 59.03 ft/lbs. If the widely accepted formula is correct, the fastener would be under torqued by almost 10%.

Using a 60 ft/lb desired torque (the minimum Hartzell torque value) one would only get a fastener torque of 54.49 ft/lb using the S-O wrench, 3 inch extension, .8 multiple for the desired torque and running the numbers backwards with the industry used formula. 5.51 ft/lb below the recommended minimum torque.

There is actually more going on here than simply adding a longer arm to get leverage. The torque wrench is only measuring the twisting force centered on the drive hole in the torque extention. The second force is the pressure neccessary to move the torque extension in an arc centered on the torque extension pivot point. (post #296) The 43.13 formula takes this all in to consideration.

I like Allan's tool and may purchase one. I am still waiting for his video and would hope there are torque wrenches much longer than 12 inches used in the comparison.

George
RV8
 
Coming video!!!!!!!

I set up and shot some video tonight and need to do a little editing (to long). Should post in a day or so. Regards all, Allan:rolleyes:
 
if you can find it, snap-on form SS428A-3A called "Bolts, Tension and Torque"
16 pages of answers. or form SB565A titled "Torque Problems" or SS1276 called "threaded fasteners & torque" if you can get them. The formula that we used for extensions and adaptors. Lever length of the wrench is extended
reading correction required! Calculation is requiredto find new reading (NR)

NR = L X T / L + E where T is torque value required
L = length of torque wr from
hand position to center of sq drive
E= extension length from center of sq
to center of hex.
NR= dial numeral representing torque value required
formula are tough in a post but I hope you get the idea.
 
I answered this question from Mike Starkey in another thread on this debate:
Mike S said:
If I use an electric motor, with an adjustable clutch set to slip at 100 lb/ft of torque on the output shaft, and then attach the 3" tool at the end of that shaft, how much torque will the end of the tool see????
Click to expand...

I can't see anywhere Mike's question was addressed, so let me repeat my answer here:

The nut will see absolutely no torque at all.​

Think about it or try it out to prove to yourself that it's true. I think this proves the correction multipler cannot be a constant.

Hope that helps.

--
Stephen
 
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90 degrees

For the love of mary, put the thing on 90 degrees and be done with it! Or calibrate your elbow... seriously. Does anybody really torque spark plugs, an 3 bolts, brake backing plates or mag attach nuts?
 
I torque spark plugs every time. One stripped thread in the cylinder isn't worth it to me. Without a torque wrench, I tend to over-torque stuff, especially AN-3 stuff.

I really have to watch it!........ :eek:
 
Sorry to do this, but . . .

fatherson said:
I answered this question from Mike Starkey in another thread on this debate:


I can't see anywhere Mike's question was addressed, so let me repeat my answer here:

The nut will see absolutely no torque at all.​

Think about it or try it out to prove to yourself that it's true. I think this proves the correction multipler cannot be a constant.

Hope that helps.

--
Stephen
Click to expand...

Actually I was wondering when this could come up. There are two rules of statics, 1. summing forces about a point = zero 2. a pure moment can be located anywhere on the plane.

So . . . Mike's pure torque of 100 will result be resisted by an equal torque at the nut. There are no force couples involved. the distance is not relevant since there is no force couple involved.

OK, all ready to pull your hair out now?

Think about it . . . if you applied a pure torque to that wrench and it was not attached, what would happen - it would spin, right? So the reaction at the nut can NOT be zero and the real answer is it is equal to that applied.

For the extension - use the FAA and torque wrench book formula.

Why? Lets say the FAA is correct - the factor is not fixed at 0.8 . But I use the 0.8 anyway. The prop torque needs 60-70 ft-lb of torque. I usually use the middle number since i don't know which way my tool may be inaccurate. So let's use 65 ft-lb. If I use a 16.5 inch wrench ( my real number) and using the .8 factor, I will be actually 6.7% low, according to the FAA formula. What if my click wrench is 4% low? Then I am 10.7% low now, or only 58 ft-lb of real torque on the nut. That is 2 ft-lb below the low end of the range. Is that enough to worry? I don't know, so I will be using what my engineering training, experience, and the FAA formula tells me.
 
It is after midnight...

I just had to see what all the huboob was about and clicked on this thread. I read every post to page 11. I said to my aching brain...let's skip to the last page and there I will find out if the length really does matter. Okay, I can sleep tonight since I have been flying behind my prop that was torqued with a 90 deg adapter. We used the same formula that is in AC43.13 in the military. I would hate to have to go back and recheck torques from 23 years ago. I am going to bed, my calibrated elbow is hurting too.

Now I figured out why Mike Starkey was recommending to a new builder "torque wrench how-to lessons" before starting his -10 emp. I was wondering what kind of crazy recommendation was that.:D
 
BillL said:
Think about it . . . if you applied a pure torque to that wrench and it was not attached, what would happen - it would spin, right? So the reaction at the nut can NOT be zero and the real answer is it is equal to that applied.
Click to expand...

You know, even as dusty as my statics and four years of physics are, Bill's counterpoint to my claim above sounds right. I'm tired and just checked into VAF for a few seconds on my way to bed, but I couldn't let my probable error stand overnight unchecked. I'll revisit this again once I have time to sketch a proper force diagram to figure out where my intuition went wrong. At least Bill and I agree that trusting the science is the right approach.

--
Stephen
 
Both could be right! Advanced Statics....

fatherson said:
You know, even as dusty as my statics and four years of physics are, Bill's counterpoint to my claim above sounds right. I'm tired and just checked into VAF for a few seconds on my way to bed, but I couldn't let my probable error stand overnight unchecked. I'll revisit this again once I have time to sketch a proper force diagram to figure out where my intuition went wrong. At least Bill and I agree that trusting the science is the right approach.

--
Stephen
Click to expand...

Actually, depending on how you hold the impact wrench, either solution is possible.

In case 1, you do your best to hold the impact driver still. In doing so, you provide a reaction force that counters the wrench interaction on the nut. You get a force couple that cancels the moment, with no torque on the nut.

In case 2, you do not resist the motion of the impact wrench, only its rotation. The wrench will try to orbit the nut, and in doing so, transmit the pure torque to it with no force couple. This assumes it does not orbit so fast that centrifugal force throws it off the nut though! :rolleyes:
 
BillL said:
............Think about it . . . if you applied a pure torque to that wrench and it was not attached, what would happen - it would spin, right? So the reaction at the nut can NOT be zero and the real answer is it is equal to that applied.
Click to expand...

Yes, the adapter would spin if it was not attached to anything. Watch out, don't let your fingers get in the way!!

But when attached to the nut, it would apply ONLY a 90-degree side-load on the nut, and ZERO turning force. No torque would be applied to the nut.

In order to twist the nut with torque, the square-drive end of the adapter has to move sideways through an arc, which the electric motor with a slip-clutch can not provide.

EDIT: This was posted before I saw Steve Smith's post. I am NOT an aero engineer!!! YMMV. Do your own testing. My .02, etc. :rolleyes:
 
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Large order

Wrench Order

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...When I came in today I received a purchase order from one of the largest propeller manufacturers in the world for 250 of our tools. They requested that we stamp into the tool the multiplier < TRQ X .8 > So their customers will use it correctly and avoid any confusion.
...The purchasing agent that I spoke to said they are having quite the laughing session throughout their facility over this. He informed me that they actually have one of the on line calculators posted for people to use. He said in their instructions is that popular diagram that keeps popping up, they never dreamed anyone would be so misinformed as to not understand that the L dimension is always 12" with all ft lb tools. I'm Happy Today! Allan
__________________
Allan Nimmo
AntiSplatAero.com
Innovative Aircraft Products
[email protected]
Southern California (KREI)
RV-9A / Extra-300

Great! Which Prop manufacturer?
 
Allan said:"The purchasing agent that I spoke to said they are having quite the laughing session throughout their facility over this. He informed me that they actually have one of the on line calculators posted for people to use. He said in their instructions is that popular diagram that keeps popping up, they never dreamed anyone would be so misinformed as to not understand that the L dimension is always 12" with all ft lb tools."


I have quite the opposite impression when I look at all the manuals, the AC and online calculators. Laugh all you want, but I don't know how anyone could possibly think anything other than to use the actual length of their particular torque wench. The meaning of L is explicitly shown in the diagrams. I haven't seen ANY documentation for the use of torque wrenches that says that L is always 12 with ft lb torque wrenches. Either Allan and his friendly purchasing agent are very wrong, or all the existing documentation is badly misleading. I await efforts by others to present video demonstrations.

Erich
 
Handle length does matter

Allan,

While I have great appreciation for the products you are bringing to the RV community and have already purchased the Nose Job and have your prop wrench on order, I humbly submit that I believe you are incorrect in your statement that a .8 multiplier can be applied regardless of the handle length of the torque wrench.

I have taken some time to demonstrate the mathematics in this analysis of the forces and moments involved. I welcome critical review of this analysis and hope it results in improved safety for all...a sentiment you expressed concern for towards the end of your video.

As an aside, I recently viewed your video and while I would agree that this is a first-year engineering student math, it's not 5th grade math. ;)

All the best,
 
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mcencula said:
Allan,

While I have great appreciation for the products you are bringing to the RV community and have already purchased the Nose Job and have your prop wrench on order, I humbly submit that I believe you are incorrect in your statement that a .8 multiplier can be applied regardless of the handle length of the torque wrench.

I have taken some time to demonstrate the mathematics in this analysis of the forces and moments involved. I welcome critical review of this analysis and hope it results in improved safety for all...a sentiment you expressed concern for towards the end of your video.

As an aside, I recently viewed your video and while I would agree that this is a first-year engineering student math, it's not 5th grade math. ;)

All the best,
Click to expand...

Your analysis shows 60 in-lbs at the bolt head, with a 56 in-lb setting on the 48" wrench. I've been enlarging the video to 800% on my 27" monitor. There is glare on the Snap-On torque gauge, and the numbers become blurry. Therefor, I put some paper against the monitor, and traced the angles of the needle from the straight on shots. It's hard to tell exactly from freezing the frame, but the needle is at least hitting 68+ on the scale. It's definitely much more than 60.

So...............is the SnapOn gauge incorrect? Are the torque wrenches incorrect? Is your mathematics incorrect? Is the time honored mathematics incorrect...
 
L.Adamson said:
Your analysis shows 60 in-lbs at the bolt head, with a 56 in-lb setting on the 48" wrench. I've been enlarging the video to 800% on my 27" monitor. There is glare on the Snap-On torque gauge, and the numbers become blurry. Therefor, I put some paper against the monitor, and traced the angles of the needle from the straight on shots. It's hard to tell exactly from freezing the frame, but the needle is at least hitting 68+ on the scale. It's definitely much more than 60.

So...............is the SnapOn gauge incorrect? Are the torque wrenches incorrect? Is your mathematics incorrect? Is the time honored mathematics incorrect...
Click to expand...

I watched the video a number of times and it looks to me like the needle hits about 64, but all of the tests done in the video are done by hand, so it's hard to say how much if any of that is overshoot after the torque wrench clicks.

After reading your question about which math is right, I looked up what AC43.13-1B has to say about this. I had intentionally not looked it up until after doing the math myself from scratch. Turns out they have the exact same formula (using different variable names) as I do.

Their formula:
T*L/(L+E)=Y

Where:
T is actual torque on the bolt
Y is apparent (indicated) torque (i.e. what you set the torque wrench to)
L is effective length lever
E is effective length extension

Rearranging their formula to show the same ratio as my analysis gives:
T/Y = (L+E)/L ==> T/Y = 1+E/L

Which is identical to what I came up with. Hrm...maybe all those of years of schoolin' paid off after all? ;)
 
fehdxl said:
Seconded.

-Jim
Click to expand...

Thanks Jim but right after I posted my request on this string (a copy of post #78 on the FS: ASA Ultimate Prop Wrenches 3/4" & 5/8" forum string) I read Allan's post above and deleted it. It's no longer necessary.

Allan, your credibility just went up 10 fold. It sucks when you're wrong but it takes a big man to admit it.
 
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Allan must be crazy... like a fox!

The objective of guerilla marketing is to get noticed so you can sell more product. I can unequivocally state that Allan is the biggest guerilla on VAF!

Well done!
 
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