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  #11  
Old 12-27-2020, 06:38 PM
RonS RonS is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Roswell, GA
Posts: 32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV6-KPTW View Post
I mounted a small Halon on the flap motor cover between the seats.
Same. Worked out well.
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Ron Slosberg
Roswell, GA
RV-14A N3318S -- Flying

Build Log: https://ronslosberg.com
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  #12  
Old 12-28-2020, 10:53 AM
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Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sidney, BC, Canada
Posts: 4,131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
I talked with the U.S. rep for the Element. He suggested that there would be no problem using it inside a small cockpit except for the 50 second "cloud". Unless you can vent the cockpit rapidly, this could be a major problem.
With the panel vents open, the cockpit would exchange a lot of air very rapidly. At the very least, you could direct a flow of outside air at your face while directing the cloud from the Element at the fire. Or, open the canopy an inch or so?

They do approve it for use in automobiles, and the Porsche club approves them for use in races... They're not a lot more spacious inside than an RV. They do have the benefit of being able to open a window though.

The reality is that any fire in the cockpit in flight is probably going to result in you emptying whatever extinguisher you have on it, while you're trying to get down on the ground. This has the benefit of being something you could start, toss on the floor to keep spraying, and then have both hands free to focus on keeping airflow moving and flying the plane.
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1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
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  #13  
Old 12-28-2020, 11:00 AM
lr172 lr172 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 5,969
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I don't know anything about the Element and its potential risk, or lack thereof, of use in a closed environment. I can tell you that Halon works by removing all of the oxygen from the air. It starves the fire of oxygen to halt burning. Unfortunately it also starves the pilot of the oxygen he needs to maintain consciousness.

Might be interesting to further explore this product, as it may be safer than Halon for use in a closed environment.

Larry
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N11LR - RV-10, Flying as of 12/2019

Last edited by lr172 : 12-28-2020 at 11:03 AM.
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  #14  
Old 12-28-2020, 11:17 AM
MED MED is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Aiken, SC
Posts: 720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lr172 View Post
I don't know anything about the Element and its potential risk, or lack thereof, of use in a closed environment. I can tell you that Halon works by removing all of the oxygen from the air. It starves the fire of oxygen to halt burning. Unfortunately it also starves the pilot of the oxygen he needs to maintain consciousness.

Might be interesting to further explore this product, as it may be safer than Halon for use in a closed environment.

Larry
This is incorrect. Halon interrupts the combustion process, but does not remove the oxygen. That is why it is safe to use in areas where people are present, giving them time to evacuate (think computer rooms). It also leaves no residue to destroy your aircraft. I had an employee accidentally discharge several hundred pounds of halon into a press pit he was cleaning with a steam lance. He came up the stairs a little shaken from the discharge, but with no medical issues whatsoever.
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  #15  
Old 12-28-2020, 11:19 AM
jjb jjb is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: CO
Posts: 62
Default Halon

Online discussions about Halon fire extinguishers invariably include an opinion that if you discharge Halon into an enclosed space, oxygen will be depleted and you will be unable to breathe. Contrary to popular belief, Halon does not remove oxygen from the air. It reacts with all elements of the fire, breaking the chain reaction that sustains combustion. It stops the fuel, ignition source, and oxygen from working together to make a fire, but does not remove the oxygen component.

The FAA and NTSB have looked exhaustively at this because the mistaken belief about oxygen depletion was being promulgated among airline flight crews causing reluctance to use Halon. The results of this study are found in FAA Advisory Circular, AC120-80.

The stated conclusion among others was “the potential harmful effects on passengers and crew [of Halon] are negligible compared to the safety benefits achieved by fighting in-flight fires aggressively.”

While other newer products may be equally suitable, halon fire extinguishers are a long established gold standard for aircraft fire protection, both inside and outside the airplane.

There is one in my current Cessna, and there will be one in my RV-7.
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RV-7
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  #16  
Old 12-28-2020, 02:04 PM
TASEsq TASEsq is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjb View Post
The FAA and NTSB have looked exhaustively at this because the mistaken belief about oxygen depletion was being promulgated among airline flight crews causing reluctance to use Halon. The results of this study are found in FAA Advisory Circular, AC120-80.

The stated conclusion among others was “the potential harmful effects on passengers and crew [of Halon] are negligible compared to the safety benefits achieved by fighting in-flight fires aggressively.”
I had not heard of this AC and found it very interesting. However I don’t think it supports your statement above - given our cabins are much smaller than an air carrier I would assume we exceed the “high level” and would suffer all the negative effects halon has to offer? I wonder how many cubic feet a RV14 cabin is so we would work it out?

“ HALON EXPOSURE. Generally speaking, halon is not harmful to passengers and crew; however, various publications, including AC 20-42, caution against exposure to “high levels” of halon in confined spaces, citing the possibility of dizziness, impaired coordination, and reduced mental sharpness. AC 20-42 also provides guidelines that describe what is meant by the term “high level” and further states that these levels should not be exceeded in ventilated or nonventilated passenger compartments on aircraft. However, studies have shown that discharging all of the hand-held halon extinguishers required by regulation in the passenger cabin of an air carrier aircraft will not exceed the maximum concentration levels of halon vapor specified in AC 20-42 or by NFPA 408 guidelines.”
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Aug 2021
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  #17  
Old 12-28-2020, 02:40 PM
jjb jjb is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: CO
Posts: 62
Default Halon

In addition to the solid research on the subject, I can only provide an anecdotal example of why I have chosen Halon for my RV and Cessna, in addition to the above post about the discharge of large amounts of Halon in an enclosed space having no ill effects on those present.

In my airline career, I have, as have other professional pilots, spent many hours inside an isolated sealed box on hydraulic stilts full of electronics prone to typical aircraft fire hazards, totally isolated with no access to real supplemental oxygen, along with the other pilot and the instructor, commonly called a full motion flight simulator.

Those are protected from fire by massive fire bottles in the simulator bay, filled with Halon, which I doubt would be put there by those who design those things if there was a real risk to the humans inside.

There is no fast escape from flight simulators when they are in use, and it would be impossible to evacuate before the simulator was filled with Halon if a fire were to break out.

Modern advances in fire suppression technology may offer other even better solutions, but Halon is a proven product that does not adversely affect humans in typical uses.
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  #18  
Old 12-28-2020, 04:07 PM
swjohnsey swjohnsey is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Kingsville, TX
Posts: 283
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I really like this forum. I'm going to get some of the Element fire extinguishers. I will keep the Halon in the RV-4 but the Element look perfect for cars and such.
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  #19  
Old 12-29-2020, 04:56 AM
RViator60 RViator60 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Southport, NC
Posts: 77
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Thanks everyone for the excellent comments to my post, that's what makes the VAF great. I'm going to go with the halon extinguisher H3R Model A344T and mount it behind the flap motor panel in the baggage area once I can confirm it would be easy enough to grab in an in-flight emergency situation. I will also buy an Element 50 for the car.
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Marty Guinn
Based at KSUT, Southport, NC
- 1973 PA28-180 (N55087)
RV14A Build
- Started Sep19, Aft Fuse complete
- Wings and fuel tanks completed,
- IO390 ordered (Oct20 deliv)
- Hartzell 2-blade composite delivered.
- Currently working on fuselage
https://eaabuilderslog.org/?s=MartysRV14A
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  #20  
Old 12-29-2020, 05:22 AM
TASEsq TASEsq is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 303
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As a data point...

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/02...f?v=1602624007
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Trent Stewart
Melbourne, Australia
http://www.tasrv14.blogspot.com.au/
Aug 2021
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