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Earth X battery vs Odyssey battery

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togaflyer

Well Known Member
I have been AOG up in Groton Ct since Saturday with an Earth X battery that had a circuit failure. I bought the battery April 2017 at SnF and it is 31 months old. The airplane’s first flight was in February 2018 and it has been flying for 21 awesome months. Having a hurricane hit our place impacted my build and shut me down for five months, delaying my completion. Until Saturday the battery has worked well. When I went for a start up last Saturday it was 1 degree Celsius with wind blowing. The airplane had been outside all night. When I cranked, the prop began to move, then a complete electrical failure occurred. After 2 minutes the power restored. Two more attempts same thing. One last attempt everything started and all was normal, like it never happened. Just prior to take off battery fault light came on and the airplane was grounded. Shut down and then restarted the plane without issue, but battery fault light still on. I pulled the battery out. It has a LED fault indicator still illuminated, but it still has 13.4 volts.)

My Call results with Earth X: Battery was out of warranty (warranty is 24 months) even though my plane has only been flying for 1.5 years, That is on me. No complaints on their warranty policy. I was given two options. They would discount a new one, but the cost was still greater then a new Odyssey 925L. I could ship the battery back and they could replace the circuit board for 75 dollars.
Both are time issues since the Earth X can only be ground shipped so we are looking at over a week minimum for a battery replacement. They believe the BMS (battery management system) probably failed due to a spike in the start up demand as a result of the outside temperature. If I don’t at least change out the circuit board then my current battery makes a great lawn mower battery. That’s what I was told.

Results:
Amazon is shipping an Odyssey 925L, which gets here on Thursday. The negatives: I will be adding 20 lbs additional weight, it has less cranking amp, and I need to do a new W&B. Positives are no circuits to fail and the battery cost less then half of a new Earth X.

I like the Earth X. It is a good battery. It cranks the engine great and gives you 20 lbs more useful. I now lack trust the BMS system. If it fails as in my case, even though the battery side is normal you are Stuck. No options. It’s not like a weak battery you need to jump start. It’s game over. Past 24 months, if your BMS fails, this 470.00 dollar battery is good for a riding lawnmower. Fortunately we are at our kids place so room and board is free. If we had been stuck at some airport I would have spent hundreds on just hotel, food and a car.

So if you are considering an Earth X, understand that the BMS can fail and leave your battery useless for flight. I believe Earth X Should consider extending the warranty on the BMS for at least 36 months, keeping the battery portion at 24 months. That gives it some value. But as of now it’s not. If you are considering the Earth X, I would recommend talking to them more about the BMS portion of the battery. Technology is great until it fails. I’m adding 20 pounds but taking a battery circuit system That can fail out of the picture. I can easily jump start a weak battery and be on my way. Not so with the BMS on the Earth X. It just adds one more complexity into a simple system.

Safe flights....
 
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Thank you for posting your experience. I recently had an Odyssey PC680 fail after only 8 months in service. This was after 4 years of reliable use out of its predecessor (also a PC680).

Annoyed by the unreasonably short life of my current battery, I briefly considered switching to the EarthX. However aside from not really wanting to permanently modify my battery box, it was the thought of exactly this sort of AOG scenario that swayed me back to another PC680.

As you mentioned, the battery cost itself can pale in comparison to other incidentals such as room and board in an AOG situation.
 
As you mentioned, the battery cost itself can pale in comparison to other incidentals such as room and board in an AOG situation.

I just replaced my battery that was still working kind of okay. With the new battery, the avionics stay on line when starting the engine (no avionics master).
 
Seems like I read somewhere that Li-xx batteries like to be warmed up before outputting high current, especially if the battery is cold-soaked. I think that came from EarthX's site. They recommend to turn on landing lights or some other significant load for 30 seconds before attempting an engine start.
 
Seems like I read somewhere that Li-xx batteries like to be warmed up before outputting high current, especially if the battery is cold-soaked. I think that came from EarthX's site. They recommend to turn on landing lights or some other significant load for 30 seconds before attempting an engine start.

This is really good to know. I had not heard of this prior to your post... not flying yet, but was planning on EarthX, and I?m in the Northeast, so by the time I?m ready for first flight, there is a good possibility that it will still be cold here.
 
Have had same problem purchased around the same time. Mine is the 900. It has had very little use and does the same thing. I have purchased an Odyssey 680 which I have used in the past and like the option to boost with car battery if needed when I fly into remote locations.
 
sooooo...would a preheated engine alleviate the problem? do we also need to warm the battery? i have 2 on the shelf waiting til spring to be installed. i missed this point. would a battery warmer inline with the engine preheater help? guess a call to earth-x is in order.
 
During my discussion with Earth X, there was no mention about powering up landing lights or anything else to warm the battery up. And I could not find anything on their WEB page or manuals that mentions this. The temp was near freezing, but it should not have been an issue at all. If the circuitry is that sensitive then there is an issue with their product. Even if the battery was under warranty I would be sitting around for a week waiting for a replacement to be shipped. Sooooo, you land somewhere for the cheap fuel at that airport and the BMS fails. So your stuck in nowhere land staying in a Super 8 motel at best for over a week with your spouse waiting for a battery replacement. What else needs to be said.
 
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Early Adopter to Earthx

I installed an Earthx in my -9 around 2015 and got 1 yr of service from it before it failed. The failure mode was no voltage due to the BMS doing its thing to protect the battery. The result of this failure was no electrons in my cockpit which tested the backup AFS battery. Didn?t have a backup battery for the comm. Safely on the ground and avoiding all the angry pattern dogs, I sent battery to Earthx for evaluation and promptly purchased a trusty Odyssey while I awaited the verdict. After several weeks it appeared the UPS guy delivered my Earthx to the business next door to Earthx and took and act of Congress for someone over there to go next door and retrieve it since that business wasn?t being nice but i digress. Anyhow, Earthx said the battery was out of warranty and said the battery had the internals of a very old and well used up battery. I thought it was only 1 yr old but they said 2 so it was technically out of warranty. I wasn?t happy as I thought a battery should last longer than that but it is what it is. Earthx offered a battery charger as a consolation prize but i declined as I didn?t want to impose. They wanted to know if I wanted the battery back but i said nope. I installed the Odyssey and the performance was just terrible compared to Earthx. I was now spoiled. Went down to Spruce and bought another Earthx, installed, and it?s doing it?s job.

Reflecting on all this, I am a rethinking the role of my battery for my application. One of the strong points for an Odyssey lead battery is its ability to absorb voltage spikes. Also, it depletes at a rate that gives you warning. Earthx does neither. There is a warning light that will give you some indication that something is amiss which is nice. However, When the BMS cuts the power, it?s gone. Maybe a lead acid backup or vise versa. Maybe a Earthx wired through a relay just for boost starting and then the Odyssey for use during the flight. I don?t know. Kinda defeats the purpose of have the Earthx I guess.

The Earthx is a great starting battery,,,,, until you get the BMS shuffle.
 
Batteries have always been an interesting subject regardless of which airplane I have owned. This discussion happens on the Cessna forums, twin Cessna forums and I'm sure many others as well as VAF. Although many of us have had varying results with each brand and have our favorites, the common denominator is the lack of flying (in most cases). I know that there are exceptions to this but more often the issue is the battery is not being used and charged to keep the electrons going. With that said, my personal experience is that I have had incredible experience with Odyssey batteries over the past 5 years. Quite opposite, we almost lost a friend and an airplane due to an EarthEx battery meltdown in the cockpit and was barely able to get the plane on the ground safely, so I personally will never own another EarthEx just because of the way it was dismissed. But I also know a few pilots that absolutely love the EarthEx battery and the weight savings, so you will certainly get different feedbacks on every brand.

In my opinion a 20 pound weight difference is negligible in an RV10 but again it all depends on your type of flying. If you are consistently loaded down with passengers and full fuel then 20 pounds is no joke. But if you look at your log book and see that you are flying your RV10 alone or with 1 other person onboard the majority of the time, then you won't even notice the difference.
As a matter fact, I have 2 separate Odyssey batteries in my RV7 (only a single battery in the RV10) on a dual split switch so I'm never left stranded on the ground due to a dead battery ( I can't imagine both batteries dying at the same time). I am also concerned that in the past 6 months there has been several members on this forum that have had negative feedback on the Odyssey batteries after being loyal for so many years. I've read here that they have bought batteries and just around the 1 year or a bit longer the battery just dies with no warning. So there are some assumptions or maybe just questions of the Odyssey batteries manufacturing changes because there seems to be an inconsistency between the batteries that were built 5 years ago and the new ones that are being built now. Folks are asking if they have changed anything in their manufacturing and asking why they are failing more often.
So my point here is there is no perfect battery. You need to mitigate your risk based on your flying habits and what is important to you. I believe that there will always be someone that has had a negative experience with a particular battery at one point or another. My belief is that I'm going to stick to what has work for me until it doesn't :D.

Most important, Have Fun, Fly Safe, Fly Often.
 
I installed a Piper style Jump plug when I built the plane. If I have a weak battery all I need to do is plug in a jump pack. It’s the BMS that is the Achilles heal. I agree with Amir that you can have a problem with any type, but a weak battery can be jump started, but if the BMS fails your done. That’s unless you are willing to fly with that battery without the protection circuit functioning. Just be aware this failure can happen and what you can expect if it does. Then decide what works for your mission.
 
On my RV-10 I had a dual Odyssey PC680 battery set-up on dual masters. That came in handy once when my alternator crapped out on me at 90 hours on a XC trip and the second battery got me home. I have the EarthX ETX900 as my main battery on my RV-9A, with a Battery Tender Battery BTL14A300CW as my back-up battery. Ill do that pre-warming the battery as part of my start-up procedure once I get the plane flying. No way would I have a lithium battery mounted aft of the FW. Both lithium batteries are mounted on the forward side of the firewall that has 1/8" fiberfrax and .005 sheet SS. If the EarthX goes out on me, the Battery Tender will get me home.
 
There is certainly a reduction in capacity with lower temperatures, and higher demand with a cooler engine.

Here is a NASA report on performance of the A123 battery, likely close to the Ex.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20070032058.pdf

It is a fact that the warmer battery will perform better, and that a pre loading of the battery will help warm it internally and improve the result, however, with the higher demand of a cold engine, it still may not have been enough to prevent this failure. See the capacity chart vs temp in the link.

The event likely pushed one cell negative (the weak link) which triggered the BMS to identify it. It did it's job, and prevented the risk of a more serious failure in the future, i.e. a thermal event of that single cell. One may wonder why didn't the BMS recognize the internal issue and simply limit the delivery (output) to protect the battery?


Opinion: it may be a single cell failed prematurely, or that cold starting requirements lack sufficient margin for the Ex design. Makes one wonder if they actually know what a cold engine takes for starting, and how close it pushes the battery to its limit.


??? - - Do any EX users regularly start your engines at 32F after a cold soak?
 
??? - - Do any EX users regularly start your engines at 32F after a cold soak?

Engine at 32F, no, it's preheated. Batteries at 32f or below, yes. 3-4 times a month during the winter.

No issues in over a year. I do not use a battery maintainer unless I run the batteries low doing avionics maintenance.
 
Finally got my Odyssey 925L, installed it, and flew home. I was able to get a battery from a company called Batterymart.com which is a good company to deal with. Spoke to them directly and was able to get the battery overnighted to me. The one I ordered from Amazon got within 60 miles, then a UPS worker loaded it on the wrong truck and it went into the abyss.

With the Odyssey, It has no problem cranking, but it does crank just slightly slower then the EarthX. At 30 degrees it had no issues cranking the engine. Not so with the Earth X. If 18 libs of weight is not critical (battery for a RV10), then I would recommend the Odyssey over the EarthX for its reliability and simplicity. Just my 2 cents worth.
 
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With the Odyssey, It has no problem cranking, but it does crank just slightly slower then the EarthX. At 30 degrees it had no issues cranking the engine. Not so with the Earth X. If 18 libs of weight is not critical (battery for a RV10), then I would recommend the Odyssey over the EarthX for its reliability and simplicity. Just my 2 cents worth.

Not to minimize your experience (glad you got it sorted) but just to put your recommendation into perspective ...

If your EarthX hadn't failed you wouldn't be making this recommendation responding to a thread where someone has a failed PC680. You would be shouting "My EarthX is great! Totally reliable. Buy an EarthX!", etc.

Plenty of folks have trouble with PC680's on a regular basis. There are also plenty of folks with EarthX batteries and no issues.

The problem is ... reviews and recommendations are overwhelmingly biased towards unhappy customers.

For me, I like the EarthX benefits and it's been reliable. However, if it (or anything else for that matter) gets me stranded, I'll surely be posting about it.
 
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Engine at 32F, no, it's preheated. Batteries at 32f or below, yes. 3-4 times a month during the winter.

No issues in over a year. I do not use a battery maintainer unless I run the batteries low doing avionics maintenance.

Same here, I've had several 20-30 F battery starts. Engine was preheated though. My battery is aft of my baggage compartment, so it get zero engine preheat help.
 
Please don't judge me...

I was out enjoying the day, stopped for cheap fuel, filled up, hopped in and CLICK! nothing. Took the cowl off tried to charge the battery (Concord) and no luck, Now What? Stranded? So I went looking around the airport for some help but no luck, BUT I did find a riding lawnmower next to a hanger, (don't Judge) grabbed the battery out of it and sure enough it fit, put it all back together, JACKPOT! it fired right up and flew directly home (not too far) never missed a beat. when I got home I went to AutoZone aircraft parts picked up a PC680 and flew back too return the battery. I haven't had any issues at all with the PC680 at all. Very happy that I didn't crash on that flight home, I could hear it now when all you guys were reading the NTSB report HAHA
 
Way to think outside the box! :D:D

I was out enjoying the day, stopped for cheap fuel, filled up, hopped in and CLICK! nothing. Took the cowl off tried to charge the battery (Concord) and no luck, Now What? Stranded? So I went looking around the airport for some help but no luck, BUT I did find a riding lawnmower next to a hanger, (don't Judge) grabbed the battery out of it and sure enough it fit, put it all back together, JACKPOT! it fired right up and flew directly home (not too far) never missed a beat. when I got home I went to AutoZone aircraft parts picked up a PC680 and flew back too return the battery. I haven't had any issues at all with the PC680 at all. Very happy that I didn't crash on that flight home, I could hear it now when all you guys were reading the NTSB report HAHA
 
Yep, any battery can fail. The added BMS circuit is just an additional thing that can fail. I have a Piper type external power plug installed, so if I have a weak battery I can jump it. BMS fails I?m AOG. That is what occurred with me. If you don?t have an external power plug or dual batteries to get you started then I guess it doesn?t matter since your AOG anyway. If your happy with your Earth X, great!
 
The failure of the BMS is something that has always concerned me about Earth-X and similar batteries. The thing is, solely from a weight perspective, which is why many people use these, you can carry a spare battery and still be at half the weight of a traditional battery. Granted, there?s an enormous cost associated with this, relatively speaking. I am not currently flying, but if I ever have an operable RV, I would seriously consider dual batteries. Then again maybe I?ll just rob my lawnmower whenever I want to fly. 🙄
 
Not to minimize your experience (glad you got it sorted) but just to put your recommendation into perspective ...

If your EarthX hadn't failed you wouldn't be making this recommendation responding to a thread where someone has a failed PC680. You would be shouting "My EarthX is great! Totally reliable. Buy an EarthX!", etc.

Plenty of folks have trouble with PC680's on a regular basis. There are also plenty of folks with EarthX batteries and no issues.

The problem is ... reviews and recommendations are overwhelmingly biased towards unhappy customers.

For me, I like the EarthX benefits and it's been reliable. However, if it (or anything else for that matter) gets me stranded, I'll surely be posting about it.

Absolutely! My building buddy was flying his Cozy MKIV from MI to FL and stopped at Greenville Spartanburg for fuel and lunch. His Odyssey died on the ramp. Fortunately he was able to obtain a replacement from a local Batteries Plus store. It lasted 2 years and again crapped out. Replaced again with a new Odyssey. Nine months later that one died. It was replaced free under warranty last month. I got 16 years out of my odyssey in my PWC, but its replacement lasted only 3 years. What has changed with Odyssey batteries? Way too many posts here on how they just don't last like they used to.
 
I got fed up with Odyssey batteries not working in cold weather, which here in Central Qld Australia means about ten degrees C. I replaced one with a Full Rivers battery, exactly the same size and shape as a PC680 and it has been going for 5 years,
Lithium is too expensive for me in my RV4 or Corby Starlet.
 
No way would I have a lithium battery mounted aft of the FW.

I hear you. But I recently sprung for the vented model of the EarthX, the EXT900-VNT, and installed it in the original Concorde location under the aft baggage shelf. This vented model was designed to address the concerns of mounting the battery aft of the firewall and EarthX recived an FAA TSO on this configuration. It is $170 more than the non-vented EXT680. I also bought the optional EarthX external overboard venting kit so I only needed one vent hole, put in the belly of the tailcone. Between the sealed overboard venting system, the battery being aft of the baggage closeout and the vent well aft of that I feel comfortable with this configuration. Time will tell.

Jim
 
I got fed up with Odyssey batteries not working in cold weather, which here in Central Qld Australia means about ten degrees C. I replaced one with a Full Rivers battery, exactly the same size and shape as a PC680 and it has been going for 5 years,
Lithium is too expensive for me in my RV4 or Corby Starlet.

Do you recall the model number for that battery?
 
we almost lost a friend and an airplane due to an EarthEx battery meltdown in the cockpit and was barely able to get the plane on the ground safely,

Thought this was meant to be impossible with the protection, but even if the probability is very low, the consequences of this kind of occurrence could be so severe that a few pounds weight saving aren't going to tempt me away from Odyssey, which I have found incredibly reliable even after a deep discharge with master switch left on.

Is there any more info on this event available?
 
Thought this was meant to be impossible with the protection, but even if the probability is very low, the consequences of this kind of occurrence could be so severe that a few pounds weight saving aren't going to tempt me away from Odyssey, which I have found incredibly reliable even after a deep discharge with master switch left on.

Is there any more info on this event available?

This incident (or one very similar) was much discussed in this forum. Alternator over-voltage went high enough to burn through the BMS protection, which EarthX represented as blocking incoming current at voltage levels above (IIRC) 16.5. Again if I recall correctly, it takes something like 60V to do that, a level our conventional alternators can easily reach if the VR takes a dump. The high charge rate turned the EarthX into a smoke bomb.

Following the incident, EarthX issued a bulletin effectively requiring independent over-voltage protection on Lycoming-sized alternator systems.

It is not an unreasonable requirement. Personally, I would want OV protection on any airplane equipped with important (and expensive) electronic devices. However, opinions vary.
 
I'm afraid of Lithium Ion in airplanes.

Have a Nissan Leaf as a second car I bought used 2 years ago. Love it for around town... I do worry about charging it in the garage but never heard of a Leaf going up in flames (can't say that for Tesla). My laptop, phone and battery powered yard tools (blower, weed-wacker, lawn mower) and some handheld power tools are Li-ion. Love it! Have a bunch of Lithium Ion AA's. Love them.

However when a Li-Ion fails (protection circuit or not), they do so in a spectacular way... AGM is good enough for me. It may be an irrational fear, but I just don't need it. Eliminating the risk of a Li-Ion conflagration works for me.

All the Odyssey bashing aside, I have had great experience with them in planes and motorcycles. The EX battery is fairly new technology and Brand. I would wait for them to get some track history.

As far as jumping a dead battery in an airplane. My policy is DON'T DO IT. Why? It puts a strain on the alternator and the battery charges at a very fast rate after engine start and can reduce battery life. It is best to charge the battery fully or at least for an hour at a lower rate (a few amps) and then if needed jump. If there are zombies invading the airport perimeter and I need to go, sure I will jump the battery. However everything should be right and near 100% for me to "slipped the surly bonds of earth...dance the skies... climbed and joined the tumbling mirth of sun-split clouds". :D
 
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This has been a great thread to bring various aspects to light so builders can make educated decisions. I note however the mix between data and antidotal information still leans toward the antidotal side.

I note with interest however the various work around being employed to use the Earthx product:
- Adding a vented battery case
- Pre-heating the battery before engine start
- Adding a second over voltage protection circuit - like the old school independent approach of adding an Alternator Output Solenoid with a crowbar circuit across the breaker holding the solenoid shut - http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf
- Carrying a ?backup battery?
- Installing battery jumper plugs

I can only assume such mitigation?s add significant cost and weight.

Adding my antidotal information, I?ve built or help with five RVs running dual PC-625 batteries starting in 2000. I?ve never had a PC-625 battery fail other than when it was abused (e.g. master(s) left on). The standard rotation is one battery replace every three years so neither is more than six years old. The pulled batteries go on to many more years of service in law tractors and such.

Carl
 
Here we go again...

I'm afraid of Lithium Ion in airplanes.

Have a Nissan Leaf as a second car I bought used 2 years ago. Love it for around town... I do worry about charging it in the garage but never heard of a Leaf going up in flames (can't say that for Tesla). My laptop, phone and battery powered yard tools (blower, weed-wacker, lawn mower) and some handheld power tools are Li-ion. Love it! Have a bunch of Lithium Ion AA's. Love them.

However when a Li-Ion fails (protection circuit or not), they do so in a spectacular way... AGM is good enough for me. It may be an irrational fear, but I just don't need it. Eliminating the risk of a Li-Ion conflagration works for me.

All the Odyssey bashing aside, I have had great experience with them in planes and motorcycles. The EX battery is fairly new technology and Brand. I would wait for them to get some track history.

As far as jumping a dead battery in an airplane. My policy is DON'T DO IT. Why? It puts a strain on the alternator and the battery charges at a very fast rate after engine start and can reduce battery life. It is best to charge the battery fully or at least for an hour at a lower rate (a few amps) and then if needed jump. If there are zombies invading the airport perimeter and I need to go, sure I will jump the battery. However everything should be right and near 100% for me to "slipped the surly bonds of earth...dance the skies... climbed and joined the tumbling mirth of sun-split clouds". :D

OK, this has been discussed extensively, but here it goes (again):

Yes, a classic lithium ion battery is VERY risky in an aircraft.

However, EarthX batteries are NOT basic lithium ion batteries. They are Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) chemistry batteries. This is NOT the type of battery that explodes like you see on the news (and rightfully worry about). EarthX LiFePo4 batteries are extremely more safe, and do not have a history of going thermal.

I really hope this thread doesn't spiral back down that same old uninformed rabbit hole. EarthX batteries are safe, so safe they're now certified by the FAA. I understand that some are concerned about the BMS, but I don't think everyone recognizes a BMS "failure" as an actual system success.

Mine has given fantastic service for 4 years now: Only replaced one when I let it get too hot under the cowl (and it kept on ticking!). And, yes, I have the EarthX jump pack on board for cross country flight: The connection is INSIDE my cockpit so I can jump it while seated should I accidently run the battery down (the BMS will protect the battery by shutting it down, but will communicate and accept the jump pack charge).

The EarthX is a good, solid, safe battery. Odyssey have left me stranded. Not the EarthX.
 
SNIP... EarthX batteries are safe, so safe they're now certified by the FAA. I understand that some are concerned about the BMS, but I don't think everyone recognizes a BMS "failure" as an actual system success. ....SNIP

Scroll,

Not to start an argument, but how the BMS protection scheme works troubles me. I fully agree that on an over voltage condition the BMS protects the battery by isolating it from the high voltage - thus mitigates the risk of thermal runaway. In doing so however, it leaves the panel without any “sump” to give the pilot time to trip the alternator if whatever over voltage protection fails (as has happened to me). A standard battery will absorb such alternator failures for those few seconds needed for pilot action. The result is the BMS protects the battery but the 90+ VDC hitting the panel will do its damage.

The Earthx installation instructions stressing over voltage protection should be carefully understood and implemented.

Carl
 
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Scroll,

Not to start an argument, but how the BMS protection scheme works troubles me....

The Earthx installation instructions stressing over voltage protection should be carefully understood and implemented.

Carl

You?re absolutely right, Carl, and this subject has been repeatedly hashed in these fora. No need to argue it.

As for me, I have invested in the additional protections (B&C external VR, blast-cooled battery box, etc.) and enjoy a fantastic and strong battery whose technology I trust. Not everyone trusts newer technology. I get it.
 
Yes, a classic lithium polymer battery is VERY risky in an aircraft.

However, EarthX batteries are NOT basic lithium ion batteries. They are Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) chemistry batteries. This is NOT the type of battery that explodes like you see on the news (and rightfully worry about). EarthX LiFePo4 batteries are extremely more safe, and do not have a history of going thermal.

This x 1000 ... LiFePo4 is safe ...
 
OK, this has been discussed extensively, but here it goes (again):

Yes, a classic lithium ion battery is VERY risky in an aircraft.

However, EarthX batteries are NOT basic lithium ion batteries. They are Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) chemistry batteries. This is NOT the type of battery that explodes like you see on the news (and rightfully worry about). EarthX LiFePo4 batteries are extremely more safe, and do not have a history of going thermal.

I really hope this thread doesn't spiral back down that same old uninformed rabbit hole. EarthX batteries are safe, so safe they're now certified by the FAA. I understand that some are concerned about the BMS, but I don't think everyone recognizes a BMS "failure" as an actual system success.

Mine has given fantastic service for 4 years now: Only replaced one when I let it get too hot under the cowl (and it kept on ticking!). And, yes, I have the EarthX jump pack on board for cross country flight: The connection is INSIDE my cockpit so I can jump it while seated should I accidently run the battery down (the BMS will protect the battery by shutting it down, but will communicate and accept the jump pack charge).

The EarthX is a good, solid, safe battery. Odyssey have left me stranded. Not the EarthX.
You sound exasperated.... like my comment is unwelcome, wasting your time and destroying the thread, this topic is closed, never to be questioned again. Sorry?

You bring ZERO facts and data, only opinion. I clearly state my fear is not fact. I have a gut feeling this is not ready for PRIME TIME for me personally. I flew Citations when Ni-Cads were used as Airplane batteries. The latest greatest had thermal runaways. They no longer exist at least on planes. There are a risk... Your faith in EarthX is great. I don't share your faith based feelings. Does not mean EarthX is bad. Let's give it a few years and my opinion may change. The EarthX batteries do fail, mostly with their protective circuits. An Odyssey AMG has no electronic circuits to go bad. For the money and assurance you will not have the SUN going super nova in your cockpit is priceless to me. Again my opinion and risk assessment.

There are CERTIFIED examples of Li-Ion based batteries in aircraft that are not good. Example B787 was almost burned to the ground by a Li-Ion battery in an ELT. It cause millions of dollars of damage and grounded the plane for an extensive period. Please don't lecture me.

The B787 is an electrical plane and has Lithium based (including LiFePO4) ship batteries. Boeing says all is good since 2013. Still some scary stuff. Having the battery in a container and compartment that can withstand a melt down is key.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner_battery_problems

A healthy skepticism of incorporating LARGE LITHIUM based batteries is well founded to me. Ever see a tiny cell phone battery go up. I can only imagine what a large one would do. If one goes up, molten matter hotter than sun releasing massive amounts of heat, smoke in the cockpit would ruin your day. In risk assessment one factor is how likely. However the other part is the consequences of it happening.
 
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Gentlemen, let's be realistic please.

True, George doesn't seem to grasp the difference between lithium ion and LiFePo4.

However, "safe" is perhaps an inappropriate term, something akin to "My RV is safe". The obvious question is "Compared to what?" I quit riding high performance sportbikes; I'm older now, a bit more fragile, and flying my RV is way safer. However, as compared to riding the airlines, my RV is statistically much worse.

My understanding is that an LiFePo4 will not ignite, but it will melt the plastic case and smoke severely. It has happened. Independent over-voltage protection is required, despite earlier representations about BMS protection, and the vented case is a smart prophylactic. Put another way, it's relatively safe, perhaps not as safe as a dumb lead acid battery, but acceptable given sensible, protected application. Like the sportbike, or the RV, it's very unsafe for the careless.
 
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You sound exasperated.... like my comment is unwelcome, wasting your time and destroying the thread, this topic is closed, never to be questioned again. Sorry?

You bring ZERO facts and data, only opinion. I clearly state my fear is not fact. I have a gut feeling this is not ready for PRIME TIME for me personally. I flew Citations when Ni-Cads were used as Airplane batteries. They also had thermal runaways. There are a risk... Your faith in EarthX is great. I don't share your faith based feelings. Does not mean they are bad.

There are CERTIFIED examples of Li-Ion that almost burned down a few B787's. One Li-Ion was in an ELT, aft part a B787. It cause millions of dollars of damage and grounded the plane for an extensive period. Please don't lecture me. The B787 is an electrical plane and has LOT's of Lithium based ship batteries. Boeing tries to squelch fear
https://787updates.newairplane.com/787-Electrical-Systems/Batteries-and-Advanced-Airplanes

I think a healthy skepticism of incorporating LARGE LITHIUM based batteries is well founded to me. Ever see a tiny cell phone battery go up. I can only imagine what a large one would do.

I'm no expert but it seems to me that you are lumping all lithium ion battery chemistries into one category with all sharing the same potential issues. My cursory research would indicate that simply isn't the case. I have no issue with your decision not to adopt lithium batteries but I'd like to point out that your arguments are apparently based on incidents with lithium batts that have different lithium chemistries than the EarthEX batts. If you have data to the contrary perhaps you could share so that we, as the uniformed audience, could better educate ourselves to come to our own conclusions.
 
George,
I totally concur regarding the 787 events. The lithium polymer batteries (with a polymer gel as electrolyte) and lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2) batteries involved in the 787 thermal events will never appear in my aircraft?s electrical system.

Again, thankfully, that?s not the EarthX?s chemistry.

If I seem exasperated, it?s because we?ve had this conversation repeatedly in VAF. Yet, once again, old fears and misunderstandings continue to surface, casting doubt against a fantastic company and product. I urge a VAF search: you?ll find several past examples.

Ok, done. Back to flying RVs.
 
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