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N941WR Rebuild Update

Hey Bill-

Sorry to learn about the woes you are experiencing with the rebuild. You know you don't want to sell your BABY (airplane baby that is)! Yes it all is
quite daunting, especially with the problems you have had but keep your chin up and just plod along day by day. Things have a way of working out. They just take longer than we would like sometimes. Hang in there. Hope 2010
will be a great year for you and your family!

Peter
9A-105 hrs
 
To be clear, Whirlwind Propellers makes the prop hub sized for 7/16" bolts. My O-360 will have 1/2" bolts. I knew this going in and worked with American Propeller, Whirlwind, and Sam @ Saber to make sure the prop I was ordering would be machined for 1/2" bolts. So, when it arrived with the smaller holes I was disappointed.

Whirlwind's plan was to have Saber make hubs that reduce the bolt size from the 1/2" on my O-360 hub to the 7/16" bolts for the prop. A few months back when this came up I refused to go this route and was told they would make the hubs sized for the 1/2" bolt. Hearing that, I placed my prop order and ordered a prop extension with 1/2" bolts from Saber.

My feeling is that there must be a reason Lycoming increased the bolt size. Even though Whirlwind insists the 7/16" bolts are fine up to 200 hp I am not comfortable doing that. Increasing bolt size is one thing but reducing them is another thing entirely.

Today being New Year's Eve, it was difficult getting everyone on the phone to resolve this.

As it stands, unless Whirlwind wants to make a new hub sized for 1/2" bolts and can get it to me within a month, this is going back. Also going back is the prop extension as there is a difference between extensions intended for wood and metal props. (Sam is great to deal with and will change out the extension for me. Thanks Sam!)

I spoke with Craig Catto today and he can whip out a two bladed prop fairly quickly.

In short, if your engine has 1/2” bolts I cannot recommend the Whirlwind Ground Adjustable Propeller. If you have 7/16” bolts it looks like it might be a good propeller option. Note, I have not flown with this prop, nor have I been able to mount it on my engine.

PS. This prop is "sized" for 150 to 200 hp engines so it is not like I'm trying to make it work with my O-360.
 
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One Word Bill

Hartzell. Unless you have a solid crank then Sensenich. I beat Mike Thompson in a race last year because he had to slow down and deviate around light rain on course with his Catto.

Bob Axsom
 
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Hartzell. Unless you have a solid crank then Senseninch. I beat Mike Thompson in a race last year because he had to slow down and deviate around light rain on course with his Catto.

I keep telling him that! :D

Besides, why stop now? :) The 9 is upgraded to an oversized engine, and might as well go all out with the sensation of power, and the ability to do things unknown to the fixed pitchers. His plane will be a "wimp" no more.... :D

L.Adamson --- RV6A/ Lyc 0360/Hartzell CS
 
Hartzell. Unless you have a solid crank then Senseninch. I beat Mike Thompson in a race last year because he had to slow down and deviate around light rain on course with his Catto.

Bob Axsom

No thanks. Adding a blue knob requires replacing my throttle quadrant which would require remaking the switch sub panels to make room for the wider TQ.

That and I don't want the weight or complexity of a CS prop. If I did, it would be the 200RV from Whirlwind, the other Whirlwind.

If I go with Catto, I'll just have him install the leading edge tape so rain won't be an issue.

One other thing, NO WAY am I going to install a CS prop now. I can just imagine the posts LA would be making about me going completely over to the dark side.
 
One other thing, NO WAY am I going to install a CS prop now. I can just imagine the posts LA would be making about me going completely over to the dark side.

With that engine.......... you're halfway there already! :D

L.Adamson --- RV6A ..... would even consider a taildragger next time..
 
Shipping

Good news today. I just got word that my ECi engine kit should ship tomorrow. That's just a little less than three months from when I ordered it.

The engine mount and gear leg are boxed up and ready to go back.
The Whirl Wind prop and spinner are boxed and ready to go back.
The Saber prop extension is boxed and ready to go back.

I'll order a Catto prop & spinner, a different Saber extension for wood props, assemble the engine, and hope Van's can turn around the engine mount quickly.
 
Hey Bill-
Glad to hear then Engine will be getting to you soon. That will keep you busy for at least a while!

Peter
 
Thanks Peter. I dropped all the other parts off to be returned. I don't expect to see the repaired engine mount for another month, at best.

How is your plane doing?
 
Sounds like its coming together. I'm waiting anxiously. Let me know if you need an extra hand.
Soon. Very, very soon.

Well, my engine didn't ship when promised but I confirmed today that it did ship yesterday and should be here next week.

Van's sent me a note saying they received the engine mount and gear leg and will do their best to turn them around ASAP. Great company! Great employees! Thanks Daryl!

Whirlwind received the prop back so they should be cutting me a refund check.

I spoke with Craig Catto last week and he is working on a prop for me. Two bladed prop for me. As much as I like the looks of the three bladed prop, everyone who has one complains about how difficult they make it to get the bottom cowl off. Besides, the demand for the two bladed prop is low so he can cut one and get it out the door ASAP. (BTW, Craig is working on a metal leading edge for his props!)

Sam at Saber Mfg received my hub and is shipping a new one to match up to the wood Catto prop.

I've completed the condition inspection on the fuselage, moved the power outlet for the ANR headsets, and did some other minor things on the plane while it is back in the basement.
 
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Great news Bill! Good choice on the prop...because when you're done with your upgrade it'll be fun to compare 2 almost identical RV9 taildraggers with the same engine but one with 2 blades and the other with 3. The airplanes should be pretty darned close with everything else being almost equal, Cool huh?!! :)

I'll be curious to see what the third blade does in takeoff vs. cruise vs. your 2 blade.

Cheers,
Stein
 
Stein,

This should be a good comparison.

Here is my data from Craig:
Craig Catto said:
2- Bladed Wood/Glass Composite Propeller for RV-9
72" Diameter x 64" pitch
0-360 Dual Elec. 180+HP@2800 RPM
Top Speed at Target RPM-210mph @2750rpm
4.375" Finished Propeller Thickness
7" Diameter Prop Flange

I have to verify that 64" pitch as that is the same pitch I had on the prop I used for the O-290-D2. Once I hear back from Craig, I'll update this post.

Anyway, Craig said that his customers are hitting the 210 mph Vne in the -9 with his props and an O-360.
 
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As much as I like the looks of the three bladed prop, everyone who has one complains about how difficult they make it to get the bottom cowl off.

Bill, These "everyone" who complains about cowling removal probably have the tail wheel on the wrong end.
I've had my Catto 3-blade since December of 2003 and we don't have any problem at all getting the cowling on or off.
 
Bill, These "everyone" who complains about cowling removal probably have the tail wheel on the wrong end.
I've had my Catto 3-blade since December of 2003 and we don't have any problem at all getting the cowling on or off.

Yes and no. I have heard from some "A" drivers but also TW pilots. Although I suspect you are correct in that w/o the nosewheel in the way, removing the bottom cowling is probably a lot easier.

Still, for me, as much as I like the looks of the tripple, it will take longer for Craig to cut me one. Thus the real reason for my choice of the double.
 
...and it's very smooth. Craig simply knows his stuff.

Best,
That's what I had with the old engine and I loved the prop. It always cracked me up when people would look at with disbelief when I would tell them it was wood.

I?m really curious if he can get me up to 210 MPH, like he mentioned. That is just as fast as Bob but without all the speed mods. I guess that is what testing is for.
 
You could de-rate the 360 to 160HP. Cessna starting in 95 came out with a restrictor plate I'am told to keep the HP at 160 and for the SP model that plate was taken out. The top RPM in the 360 I think is 2375 @160 and the SP 180 HP @ 2550. Cessnas way of keeping it simple with out a engine change. It maybe the 360 L2A. don't quote me but I wanted to do the same (360) 160HP because they say its QUIETIER at 160HP then the 320 cranking out the 160 at the higher RPM. Any body have any corrections to my info? Loved to hear more. Ron
 
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You could de-rate the 360 to 160HP. Cessna starting in 95 came out with a restrictor plate I'am told to keep the HP at 160 and for the SP model that plate was taken out. .... Ron
I could de-rate the engine but why bother? I can always pull back on the big black t-handle when I get close to Vne.

There was no restrictor plate in the de-rated engines, just a lower redline, from what I understand.
 
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ECi Engine - Three months from order to delivery

Con-Way called this morning and my ECi engine kit is sitting on their loading dock.

The kit order went in on October 15th, so having it arrive on January 18th isn't too bad.

Now to put it together this weekend! Yeeehawwwwww!
 
I heard back from Craig. Nadine was confused and thought they were cutting a new prop for my O-290, just as I had suspected. Here are the numbers he is projecting for my O-360:

Craig Catto said:
2- Bladed Wood/Glass Composite Propeller for RV-9
72" Diameter x 75" pitch
0-360 Dual Elec. 180+HP@2700 RPM
Top Speed at Target RPM-210mph @2750rpm
4.375" Finished Propeller Thickness
7" Diameter Prop Flange

Updating the numbers, as promised.
 
Make sure you document your engine build, including lots of pictures! I need to make a Chinese set of instructions.
 
Close Call - Outstanding Catch

I heard back from Craig. Nadine was confused and thought they were cutting a new prop for my O-290, just as I had suspected. Here are the numbers he is projecting for my O-360:



Updating the numbers, as promised.

Good catch - when I saw your pitch number earlier (64") I thought to myself there is no way this combination has a chanch of reaching 210 mph at normal rpm speeds. Still I am dubious but then I have no experience with your combination. If you hit 210, even at 2750 rpm you will be a high contender in the RV Blue racing class (www.sportairrace.org). Good luck with that - as if I needed more motivation. Back to work on my new wing tip molds.

Bob Axsom
 
Good catch - when I saw your pitch number earlier (64") I thought to myself there is no way this combination has a chanch of reaching 210 mph at normal rpm speeds. Still I am dubious but then I have no experience with your combination. If you hit 210, even at 2750 rpm you will be a high contender in the RV Blue racing class (www.sportairrace.org). Good luck with that - as if I needed more motivation. Back to work on my new wing tip molds.

Bob Axsom
Bob,

I too am "dubious" about the 210 mph number but from what I've heard from other -9A drivers with this engine ? prop combination that might just be a real number.

Other changes to the plane will be a James Aircraft holy cowl and plenum. Once that is fitted, I'm going to add the Larry Vetterman belly fairing. If all that stuff works as advertised, then I may be at the Vne while doing 65% power. ;)

First I have to assemble the engine (delayed until next weekend due to Nora and the Mini-Me having the flu), get the engine mount back from Van?s (they are re-working it), the prop from Catto, and the prop extension from Saber. With luck, all those parts will be back in my shop within a month and then I can start fitting everything.

That Holy cowl is a work of art when compared to the Van?s cowl. And to think, it is only a hundred more +/- than the Van?s cowl.
 
Last night Nora helped me put the valve in all four cylinders. This weekend we should put the rest of the engine together. Now it is just a waiting game for the mount, gear leg, prop, and prop extension to find their way to my house.

Over the weekend I sealed the inside of the cowling, top and bottom. Maybe when I get some free time I'll "flox" the intake ring in place. Then all that will be left do to is fit hang the engine, fit FAB, fit the cowling, and install all the probs. That should take a week at most. ;)
 
A big thanks!

This past weekend, at the instance of Bret Smith (RV-9A builder/flier) I spent the weekend at his log cabin in the mountains of Northeast Georgia putting my ECi O-360 together with the help of another of his EAA chapter buddies / A&P while it was snowing like crazy outside.

All went well until it was time to install the push rod for the fuel pump, it seems that was backordered. So we just bolted the sump and accessory case on with a few bolts and once that part arrives, I'll install it and seal up the accessory case and sump. Easy enough to do.

Thanks Bret & Terry!

After returning home from the mountains, Tad Sargent and his wife Terry were kind enough to run over and help me carry the engine from the back of my truck into my basement. No small feet as the truck was on the street because of the 4-5" of snow & ice that fell over the weekend.

Now I just have to wait for Van's to return my engine mount & gear leg, Craig Catto to finish my prop, and Sam @ Saber to ship my prop extension so I can put Humpty Dumpty back together again.
 
I heard from Van's last night, the engine mount is on its way. :D

Who knows, I might just make SnF.
 
That's good to hear

Maybe after SNF you and Bret can venture up to the KY state and help me mount my engine on. Dana use to have the flyin at Richmond but seeing how he doesn't have a RV now I doubt that happens anymore. I think I read somewhere that he might be hosting a KR flyin this year.
 
Mike,

Keep plugging away at it, you will ready to join us at 5NC3 for BBQ soon enough. :D

BTW, FedEx delivered my Saber prop extension this afternoon.

Hello Craig, where's my prop?
 
The engine mount arrived today. Thanks Daryl!

I spoke to Craig Catto yesterday and my prop will ship in a week and a half. Once that arrives, I will have all the major parts in hand.

Last night I was up until 11:30 working on the engine. The accessory case is bolted in place as is the fuel pump. Tonight I'll install the sump and mags and then set the engine aside and work on bolting up the engine mount.

Once those tasks are done, all that is left is fitting the cowling, FAB, baffles, and cooling plenum. Not much, in the scheme of things. (Yes, all those parts were damaged in the taxi incident and are being replaced.)
 
The reworked engine mount bolted right up with less frustration than the first time I installed it.

On Monday I took the day off to be with our 15 month-old. When he went down for his afternoon nap I ran to the basement and installed the gear legs and did some other minor items.

Tonight (Wednesday) after getting home late and eating dinner I ran to the basement to try hanging the engine by myself. After reviewing the drawings, getting advice from Radomir, and following the Illustrated Guide to Engine Hanging By the Tampa RV Builder?s Group (Jim Norman, Scott Reviere, Don Hughes, Doug Gardner, and James Samonsky.) I had the engine bolted in place in less than an hour. Tomorrow I?ll torque and cotter pin it.

Thanks guys, your instructions were easy to follow and a great help!

This Friday Craig Catto should ship my prop so I?ll be able to start on the cowling soon.
 
It has been a busy time for me but little time to work on the -9.

The prop arrived a week and a half ago. I spent the evening it arrived installing the plate nuts on the spinner that Craig Catto fitted for me. BTW, that is well worth the money. I did my first spinner and it came out good but having Catto fit the spinner is SO much easier. All I had to do was install the plate nuts and install it.

Last week I set the top cowling in place and this Saturday I had the time to trim it and drill the holes for the Skybolt fasteners. Once that was finished taped the lower cowl in place and hope to trim it up tomorrow night.

The trick to fitting the cowling was to use a #40 hole duplicator to pick the existing female skybolt fastener already riveted in place. To make the hole duplicator work with the existing holes, I made a small disk with a #40 hole in the center and the outside diameter of the disk matches the hole for the female part of the Skybolt fastener. This worked out great.

Once this is finished I can move on the baffles.
 
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Hey Bill,

ECI is supposed to ship my tappets in 7-10 days. At that point I will be down to just FWF on mine. If you don't get the lead out I might have to fly mine down there to help you get airborne.
 
Hey Bill,

ECI is supposed to ship my tappets in 7-10 days. At that point I will be down to just FWF on mine. If you don't get the lead out I might have to fly mine down there to help you get airborne.

Tony you are not the first to mention that. There is still a good bit of work left. I can wait to finish it. This morning I heard from my tax guy and it is going to be UGLY for me on April 15th.
 
After 16.5 hours of work, the top and bottom cowls are on and attached at the firewall. There is still a lot of work left to do, such as rivet a piece of aluminum along the horizontal part line to hold the Skybolt fasteners, layup some fiberglass in the nose area, next to the spinner for platenuts to hold the nose together, cut and fit the oil door, and a few other things.

A number of people have compared the James Aircraft cowl to the Van's and said the James is of better quality. I'm not so sure that is true.

* There are a LOT of pin holes in the James cowl, call it equal to the Van's cowl. The trimming effort is the same, so call that equal.
* The opening for the crankshaft had to be sized on the Van's cowl but the James cowl was the correct size out of the box. Advantage James
* On the Van's cowl you have to glass in the air ramps but on the James cowl you have to fit a plenum, advantage Van's.
* There is no recess for the oil door in the James cowl but it is easy to see where to cut the door, advantage Van's.
* With the James cowl, you have to either layup fiberglass on the top of cowl prior to cutting the oil door opening so you can use that newly formed piece for the door or use caution when cutting the hole. Van's gives you a door, advantage Van's.
* With the James cowl, you have to fit and glass in three rings; two for the cooling air inlets and one for the intake air. Advantage Van's.
* With the James cowl, you have to do a lot of work on the cooling plenum. On the Van's cowl, you have to do a lot of work with the airseal fabric. Advantage Van's.

As for cost, the plenum and James cowl are only $100 more than the Van's cowl, advantage Van's, just barely.

In the looks department, ADVANTAGE James cowl. That thing looks fast just sitting there. IMveryHO!
 
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I concur with all your points about the Vans vs James cowl. I need to get back on mine as soon as my wiring gets tidy'd up somemore
 
The true parameter of interest is performance

After 16.5 hours of work, the top and bottom cowls are on and attached at the firewall. There is still a lot of work left to do, such as rivet a piece of aluminum along the horizontal part line to hold the Skybolt fasteners, layup some fiberglass in the nose area, next to the spinner for platenuts to hold the nose together, cut and fit the oil door, and a few other things.

A number of people have compared the James Aircraft cowl to the Van's and said the James is of better quality. I'm not so sure that is true.

...
In the looks department, ADVANTAGE James cowl. That thing looks fast just sitting there. IMveryHO!

The real comparative interest is in performance. To my knowledge (I have all three years of data in one Excel workbook) There never has been an RV-9 in an SARL cross country air race with either cowl so I guess we will never know. When you jump in the arena we will get some baseline data for the RV-9 powered by a "360" with your prop selection.

Bob Axsom
 
Bob,

The bummer of it is that with the engine and prop change going on at the same time my old data is no good.

Oh, I'm making a Larry Vetterman belly fairing while I'm at it. That is supposed to be good for up to five mph.
 
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Update time

Gang, I will take and post pictures of the Vetterman's fairing, when I make it. Right now it is just a stack of epoxied together Styrofoam. (Epoxy and micro balloons that is.)

Between SnF, my three jobs, and the new boy (well not so new at 18 months), I have had limited time to work on the plane.

Over the last few days I have installed carb, fitted the exhaust, and riveted the doublers to the baffles.

Let me start by saying that Larry Vetterman does a great job on these exhausts! On my old engine, I had to take an O-360 exhaust and trim it down to fit the O-290. Not a big deal but another task. It was a pleasure to simply unbox the exhaust and bolt it in place. Not to figure out where to drill the holes for the EGT probes.

Over the past few days I?ve been playing with the baffles. Man, this new baffle kit is just outstanding! Real instructions, with good pictures, parts that actually fit, and more! Radomir came over this afternoon to kick me in the butt aka kick start me. As he also has a Sam/Will James cowl and plenum, we made great progress and I?m just about to trim the baffles to fit. Then I?ll do some fiberglassing on the plenum just to seal it better. Once that is done, I can fit the oil cool to either the baffle or on the firewall. My preference is to put it on the baffle but space considerations may force the move to the firewall.

A big thanks to Radomir for his help today!

That about covers it.
 
Pre-OSH update

It has been almost 13 months since my taxi incident and N941WR is getting close to move back to the airport.

Here is what I have left to do:
The oil filler door needs to be riveted in place and the Hartwell latches installed.

The carb heat has to be fabricated and attached to the HIGHLY modified FAB.

I need to modify the mixture so I have enough movement. For some reason, this worked great with the MA3 carb on the O-290 but the MA4 carb on the O-360 is just different enough that it isn't a bolt up operation.

Once that is done, I need to mount my new rectangular EICommander and I want to repaint the interior, while I have it home.

Pictures of the FAB modification can be found here.
 
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Engine Oil Heater

--> See post/quote on the next page regarding this product. <--

Todd,

Here are the details:

It is a 3" long 250 watt oil heater. They are a NASCAR tansmission pre-heater. (One of the advantages to living in NASCAR's home territory).

It is a 110V heater and I will add a plug and run it to the oil filler door later on.

You can order it from: http://www.bsrproducts.com/

Here's the part number and cost from my invoice:
ELX-PH-2503 Probe Heater - 250W 3in Long $49.86

One note, they do not come with a provision for a safety wire, so you need to drill a small hole prior to installation.
 
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