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OSH Fiske arrival question

randylervold

randylervold

moderator
I'm flying our company Bonanza to OSH and have a question for you OSH vets. This B36TC doesn't like to fly at 90 kts so I'll take the 2,300' 135 kt route like I did last year, but here's the question: at what point do you descend to 1,800' pattern altitude? I've scoured the NOTAM and can't find anything. Descending into traffic with a low wing aircraft concerns me which is why I'm asking.
 
I don't know the answer but I would guess when they split you off for 1 runway or the other.
 
This issue has been discussed every year. Scott Card summed it up well earlier this month. "We do have this conversation each year don't we. I have the usual notam right here in front of me. Also, as usual, it is very clear that it doesn't matter what MY "preference" is. It says: Do THIS, "if unable", do THAT. Now, if we decide to ignore the details fo the notam, that is indeed your choice". Scott is being polite, remember that a NOTAM has regulatory power if someone wants to take you to task.

Bluntly, if you are "unable" to fly a Bonanza at Vso +30 for a few miles you might want to get some instruction. By the way, my Baron didn't mind flying at 90 kts.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
At Fisk

At fisk the will give you your runway assignment and have you descend to 1800. You still have to integrate into the lower traffic.
 
John Clark said:
Bluntly, if you are "unable" to fly a Bonanza at Vso +30 for a few miles you might want to get some instruction. By the way, my Baron didn't mind flying at 90 kts.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
Click to expand...

John, you might want to rethink that a little. While a Baron can fly at 90 knots, IMHO it's neither reasonable nor safe, especially at low altitude, in a situation where your attention should be outside the airplane. All my Baron time is in a B55, but as I recall 90 knots is at least 20 knots below the blueline, and even below Vmc and Vsse. It is around 1.2 Vso.

An engine failure at that speed and altitude would put you and your passengers in a world of hurt, and there is no reason to expose yourself to that risk.

Randy's question is reasonable, and I think operating a bonanza in the high pattern meets the spirit and letter of the notam. It is safer at 135 knots in an airplane that is easier to fly at that speed and can easily mix with the other "high" traffic.

Most of us could land an RV in a 20 knot direct crosswind, but that doesn't mean we should if there's a better runway available.
 
randylervold said:
I'm flying our company Bonanza to OSH and have a question for you OSH vets. This B36TC doesn't like to fly at 90 kts so I'll take the 2,300' 135 kt route like I did last year, but here's the question: at what point do you descend to 1,800' pattern altitude? I've scoured the NOTAM and can't find anything. Descending into traffic with a low wing aircraft concerns me which is why I'm asking.
Click to expand...

I was watching the aircraft landing Oshkosh RW27 today, the controller would tell the higher and faster traffic (several twin Cessna) "join the downwind and descend to pattern altitude, follow the low wing ahead"
 
Not my understanding

Frank Smidler said:
At fisk the will give you your runway assignment and have you descend to 1800. You still have to integrate into the lower traffic.
Click to expand...

This does not match my experience flying in Oshkosh. They want all aircraft at the same altitude before to initially get to Ripon. Very dangerous arriving there higher and then descending.

My plan this year is a minimum of 10nm from Ripon to be at altitude and head on a swivel. If your higher than everybody, they will be very hard to see.
 
Bonanza at 90 Kts?

flyeyes said:
John, you might want to rethink that a little. While a Baron can fly at 90 knots, IMHO it's neither reasonable nor safe, especially at low altitude, in a situation where your attention should be outside the airplane. All my Baron time is in a B55, but as I recall 90 knots is at least 20 knots below the blueline, and even below Vmc and Vsse. It is around 1.2 Vso.

An engine failure at that speed and altitude would put you and your passengers in a world of hurt, and there is no reason to expose yourself to that risk.

Randy's question is reasonable, and I think operating a bonanza in the high pattern meets the spirit and letter of the notam. It is safer at 135 knots in an airplane that is easier to fly at that speed and can easily mix with the other "high" traffic.

Most of us could land an RV in a 20 knot direct crosswind, but that doesn't mean we should if there's a better runway available.
Click to expand...

I'm wondering what it is about the B36TC that doesn't like 90 kts? While I've never flown a B36TC, I do have a fair amount of time in an A36, and 90 kts is a piece of cake. In fact, the BO handles pretty well at 70 kts IAS, clean. The B36TC is a little heavier, but it also has longer wings thus I wouldn't think 90 would be a problem.

Regarding the B55, I believe Vmc is around 80 kts, and Vsse is around 86 kts.

Skylor
RV-8
N808SJ
 
Last edited:
A Bonanza of some flavor flew on my right wing from Ripon to Fiske last year. Guy was close! The controllers were yelling at him to fall in line over the tracks but he was clueless.

Yep, they will fly @ 90kts or at least that one did. :p
 
dpansier said:
I was watching the aircraft landing Oshkosh RW27 today, the controller would tell the higher and faster traffic (several twin Cessna) "join the downwind and descend to pattern altitude, follow the low wing ahead"
Click to expand...

Don,

From the looks of things, I will have a pretty stiff crosswind at arrival tomorrow. Please don't watch my landing! :eek:
 
sjhurlbut said:
This does not match my experience flying in Oshkosh. They want all aircraft at the same altitude before to initially get to Ripon. Very dangerous arriving there higher and then descending.
Click to expand...

Actually, as already mentioned in this thread, the NOTAM specifically describes a procedure for flying the Ripon/Fisk arrival at a higher speed and altitude IF you are unable to fly at 90 kts.
 
flyeyes said:
All my Baron time is in a B55, but as I recall 90 knots is at least 20 knots below the blueline, and even below Vmc and Vsse. It is around 1.2 Vso.
Click to expand...

In a B55, 90 knots is above Vmc and is 1.3+ Vso. Yes, you are below "blue line" but you are not in a V1 cut condition. Losing an engine at 1000 AGL is much simpler than on takeoff at 50 feet. Besides in this example, I would prefer to lose some altitude while dealing with a failure and turn out of the conga line rather than climbing into the traffic.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
Actually, as already mentioned in this thread, the NOTAM specifically describes a procedure for flying the Ripon/Fisk arrival at a higher speed and altitude IF you are unable to fly at 90 kts.
Click to expand...

Does that mean the pilot is unable or the aircraft :D
 
Walt said:
Does that mean the pilot is unable or the aircraft :D
Click to expand...

Sadly, in view of some of the "reasons" offered, it is the pilot. Walt for the win. :rolleyes:

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
dpansier said:
I was watching the aircraft landing Oshkosh RW27 today, the controller would tell the higher and faster traffic (several twin Cessna) "join the downwind and descend to pattern altitude, follow the low wing ahead"
Click to expand...

The thing about the amazing controllers at OSH is that they almost never lose their patience and just do what needs to be done to move traffic safely. When they are telling people to "descend to pattern altitude" on the downwind, they are really saying "you should have been down there already!"
 
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