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We need to stop making the same mistakes

LettersFromFlyoverCountry

LettersFromFlyoverCountry

Well Known Member
There was an accident on Madeline Island in the Apostle Islands of Lake Superior a few days ago that continues to bother me because we hear of these things time and time again.

The gentleman made a go-around on his first approach and upon his second approach, the airplane crashed. The weather appeared to be no factor.

I realize, of course, that the NTSB will ultimately decide the cause but this one has all the classic symptoms of a stall from base to final, when a pilot misses the extended centerline, yanks it back to the left, throws in a little right rudder to coax the nose back around, and momentarily loses where his airspeed is.

Coincidentally, I had spent about a half hour on the Aviation Safety Institute course on essential aerodynamics and spins which addressed this situation.Yeah, I was already aware of it, but it helped to have a refresher.

I had also been relaxing out on the deck (hey, if I can't fly the RV7A I might as well spend my time learning something!) reading this month's Flight Training magazine article on spins and stalls.

I get mad at myself for not being more focused at this stage of the flight. I get mad at others for making the same mistakes I find myself making.

If I ever get back in the air, the first thing I'm going to do is set a goal of shoving in the throttle and going around more often.
 
Thanks for the post. I'm headed out in the next week with an instructor to reaffirm my abilities or get better. That's the one part of flight that always makes me think real hard. Thanks for the push. :)
 
LettersFromFlyoverCountry said:
....

If I ever get back in the air, the first thing I'm going to do is set a goal of shoving in the throttle and going around more often.
Click to expand...

With my RV transition training cfi hat on, I'd encourage people think about a purposeful, but less than frantic application of go-around power. Someone not current or properly skilled who is hanging on the edge, possible uncoordinated, and fire-walling the power instantly might be going from bad to worse.
 
Like driving too fast in the rain, following another car too close, or texting while driving, I suspect that as long as people have the choice to do something badly, they will.
 
I've Never Flown an RV...

I've never flown an RV (building currently), but if you have your airplane trimmed for approach speed and low power, and then you firewall your throttle, the pitch-up can be pretty substantial, at least in the Cessna's, Beeches, and Pipers I've flown. It may feel good to push the throttle forward, but power doesn't keep you flying. You can go from nose low and slow attitude to a nose high and slow attitude real quick.
 
Madeline Island

I recall a lot of haze around Superior this time of year and being hard pressed to distinguish the horizon in an approach to Madeline. really sad to hear of a pilot losing his life.
 
it's not a crisis, it is a controlled manuever

once upon a time a certain employer procedure was to push the power way up on a go around...a mentality from who knows where...pure stupidity as the airplane had a marvelous characteristic of pitching up significantly...finally sense prevailed and now it is a controlled smooth application of power that is easy to follow with appropriate flight control inputs.

go arounds are inevitable and should be practiced often. they are not an emergency maneuver, even in the rare case of something getting on the runway at the last moment you still typically have flying airspeed so smoothly advance the power and maneuver in a controlled manner. those who treat go arounds like a crisis are doomed to create a real crisis, oftentimes their last.

your ego should never be too large to admit you buffooned the approach such that you refuse to go around, if it is you have no business flying. besides, who doesn't want another .1 of flying time?
 
Knowing "The Feel"

I think we're emphasizing the wrong stuff in this discussion. I don't think it's a pitch up issue, but rather an inability to recognize how the airplane feels a couple knots above stall - regardless of atitude (g-loading is a different matter - anything above 1 G in the pattern should get your attention).

My -8 builder's manual had a section in the ops procedures about the need to do recurrent slow flight training so that stall onset is quickly recognized - and refreshed in one's memory. RVs are so responsive that unloading with forward stick anywhere except close to the ground will allow recovery. Worse case - you kiss the ground under control vice in an uncontrolled stall or spin.

Periodically practice slow flight - flaps up and down - to stalls. Do approach turn stalls. Develop the understanding and confidence that an RV will recover instantly if you let go and wind your watch with both hands at stall onset vice trying to handfist a recovery. If comfortable - do spin entries so you will recognize how it feels in the short time between cross-controlled stall onset and spin entry - where even in that short time, unloading will probably save your butt.
 
I'm in full agreement that skills expansion is a huge key, but one only has to review the past several threads on the issue to see where this one will end up. There will be a segment of the population that thinks driving an airplane "by the book" provides margin without the added risk of "flying on the edge", and there will be a segment who advocate constant envelope expansion so that one can instantly and intuitively recognize when things are going badly.

The fact of the matter is that like cars and motorcycles, plenty of people operate airplanes in a purely mechanical manner ? safe, but no real understanding of what the machine is telling them. Statistics indicate this results in an acceptable safety rate, so not many are driven to improve beyond this basic method of operation. So, while the ?mechanical? type pilots are mostly safe, there are going to be situations where that method falls short. And just like in my first post about cars and driving, we will continue to have these easily preventable accidents as long as we churn out pilots who don?t have a true understanding of their machines.
 
Several good points in this thread, but we need to remember the human factor in this. OK, it is really the ego factor. In the scenario Bob describes, the answer is simple. First, admit early that "This isn't working the way I would like" apply power and go around. I have to think that many stall/spins in the pattern are caused by trying to "fix" an approach. Some pilots seem to think that there is some sort of penalty for going around when, in fact, that action should be praised.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
LettersFromFlyoverCountry said:
If I ever get back in the air, the first thing I'm going to do is set a goal of shoving in the throttle and going around more often.
Click to expand...

I would highly recommend that EVERYONE get some real spin training. If you don't want to do it in your RV (although I think it's a good idea), get some instruction in something else.
If you've not stalled and spun on purpose, how are you gong to cope if its a surprise.

Flame away..
 
good, bad, examples are everywhere.....

John Clark said:
Several good points in this thread, but we need to remember the human factor in this. OK, it is really the ego factor. ...Some pilots seem to think that there is some sort of penalty for going around when, in fact, that action should be praised.

John Clark ATP, CFI
Click to expand...

This reminds me of operating at a big airfield, where nearly every transmission is read-back, and landings are a lot of long, straight-in air carrier approaches. The contrast are little uncontrolled fields where things are, shall we say, more casual.
Guys land long, turn off at a different taxiway than they said, miss calls etc.

My point; when I am following a big jet, and there's another one right behind me, the mindset is to 'drive-er' on!' to keep the flow intact. IF this finds you too high, hot etc., or any other situation reminds you of something you read in an accident report, then call 'overshoot'! ( some circuit practice is rarely a bad thing either).
If you think this will make you look somehow less 'cool', then remember, there are much less experienced, or 'student' pilots watching and listening, and you just set an excellent example of risk management.
 
Go arounds!

Happened to me yesterday! On turning short final, I noticed a Bonanza in the middle of the runway just about ready to turn off. Don't know why I didn't see him doing his down wind landing, would have been head on just a few moments sooner! Anyway, a smooth power up and gentle go around for me.

Had a nice talk with the gentleman after he approached me to apologize. Apparently, he didn't check the wind sock before he landed and the last place he was, it was favored from that direction and he just assumed it was the same. As to why he didn't talk on the radio or why he wasn't listening to my announcements? It was so windy he didn't think there was anyone else flying!

Anyway, all turned out well.
 
RV8iator said:
I would highly recommend that EVERYONE get some real spin training. If you don't want to do it in your RV (although I think it's a good idea), get some instruction in something else.
If you've not stalled and spun on purpose, how are you gong to cope if its a surprise.

Flame away..
Click to expand...

I second this recommendation. Even though a spin in the low-altitude environment of the pattern would be a difficult recovery - training or not - experiencing spin entry and recovery has been the best training I've had as a relatively low airplane time aviator.

Interestingly enough, with the majority of my time in helicopters, a difficulty I had in the very early days of my airplane add-on was actually paying attention to airspeed in the pattern. Yes it is good airmanship to maintain a constant airspeed in the pattern with a helo (if you're even flying a pattern), but aerodynamically it just doesn't matter (leaving IGE/OGE hover discussion out of it) - I'm outside looking at the landing environment, traffic, things on the ground I'm about to pick up :D , etc. The ASI isn't really in that scan.

I'll never forget my first approach attempt when I put the 172 in a great final approach angle - for a helicopter! I had it in a beautiful, slightly nose up, decelerating attitude. My CFI asked me what the he$$ I was doing, nosed it over into, what felt to me like a dive, and said, "you have to fly these things all the way to the ground son!" Ever since that moment - and reading a lot about the stall/spin accident scenarios - I've been acutely aware of what my plane is doing down low (try to up high, too:D ). This paranoia if you will about stalls/spins is what pushed me early on to get some spin training. Will be returning to get some aerobatic training and complete my TW endorsement, too.

Many times since owning my 7A, I have taken it to altitude and practiced stalls in various configurations. Several times I have recreated the landing sequence - flaps, AS, etc - and tried to get into the base to final accelerated stall. I will never speculate as to specific accidents, but I will say that if I ever get close to the bank angles, g-load, and airspeed required for the base-to-final accelerated stall, it means that I am incapacitated. I had to force myself to get the plane in that situation even at altitude - it just felt so uncomfortable.

As to the go around/departure stall - great advice about taking your time. I smoothly advance power - focused initially on smoothly arresting any descent rate. Simultaneously, if in or close to the flare, I'm focused on the nose and guarding against the tendency to want to pull aft on the control stick. The potentially adrenaline producing event and the ground rushing to meet you gives the tendency of drawing the limbs in - and the nose up. Slow, smooth application of power, slight adjustment of pitch as required, and we're flying - clear the area, clean up the plane, make a call, back into the before landing check, and we're back at it for another go - no fuss, no muss.
 
Im with the guy above- also a 2000 hour helo pilot with only a few hundred additional in fixed wing (no RV yet) and I had exactly the same problem on my first couple of approaches, nose up, decelerative attitude, waiting to judge my rate of closure. It got fixed quickly- particularly as my CFI was aware of my background. Imagine my next helicopter copilot's surprise when I tried to make a nose down attitude approach on my next helo flight. I am very aware of airspeed on approach- I now regularly announce my airspeed once I have the first position of flaps in as a part of crew coordination (not that my wife cares much, but hey, good habit transfer.) It would not hurt my feelings, however to go take a spins class where I can see and feel how a turn to final spin might develop, as my training aircraft was not rated for spins, and I have yet to do any in training.
 
Spins and stalls have two common themes:

RECOGNITION of an impending stall or spin, in order to avoid either....and also what causes them. After the initial training in both maneuvers, you should have a good idea of how to not go there.

Best,
 
A contrarian thought or two

No, I don't disagree with anything above.

I do think that there is no sin or shame in having an airplane that is safer for when the pilot is not performing well enough. I am in that situation often enough to care about it.

Should I be a better pilot? Heck yes. Should I stop flying just because I don't get enough hours? That would be hard to accept. I'm not saying that airplanes should be idiot proof but they don't have to be inherently as dangerous as we can make them, either.

1. It would be nice if the airplane would be more stall resistant, but short of limiting elevator authority, the RV is not a candidate for that.
2. What would be the harm in having a stall horn? Really, is it like quiche? I wish I had one like on my old C-150 because I don't like those little external vanes.
3. OK, if not a stall horn then at least AOA in a position to get your attention when you are looking outside. I do have that! If it's good enough for carrier based Navy pilots then it's good enough for me. I just wish it had a noisemaker add-on.
 
Part of the problem of "we need to stop making the same mistakes" is the process of becoming a pilot.

Contrary to the mind set of the marketing of aviation, not everyone is suited to fly airplanes. The notion that this shoe fits everyone is false, some people do not belong in an airplane but they end up there anyhow.

I flew with an 18 year old kid many years ago who could fly better than his instructor, right out of the box. His natural ability was phenomenal, it was in his genes or blood. His uncle also was an excellent pilot and flew the farmer act in a cub at Reinbeck in those days. Last I heard, the kid was flying with the Coast Guard after going through their academy.

I've also flown with ex-military pilots who never really figured it out. They were educated, intelligent, could pass checks rides, get the job done, but never thought like or flew like the 18 year kid.

There are varying degrees of this phenomena. That's why aviation has produced characters like Bob Hoover, they are born with it. We all fit in this scenario somewhere and in order to survive need to know where that is.

This is a problem in general aviation where standards are not controlled as in professional aviation. One can get away with terrible flying habits because someone is not constantly looking over your shoulder demanding safe performance.

I'm not suggesting anyone throw in the towel - unless there is a constant fear or anxiety when in an airplane, that is a symptom of not belonging where you are in any activity.

But be aware, we all have limitations based on native ability. That's where EGO begins to do its ugly thing. A pilot is reluctant to admit he or she does not belong in an airplane. Some do quit after surviving a particularly frightful, self imposed stupid event, some don't have the courage or intelligence to do so. That is a problem.

The reason these "same mistakes" keep happening is carelessness, lack of attention to what is going on in an airplane, and/or EGO. It is a simple as that.
 
I agree with Bob and have seen this over & over.

I don't want to be one of those statistics so when turning downwind to base; I start muttering to myself over & over, "Base to Final, Base to Final". For me, it helps me focus on what I'm doing and mentally bring to mind all the things I should be doing and awareness of all the accident reports I've read. Also, I try to recognize early if I need to go around. Going around for a better setup is good airmanship IMO.

A little "prevention" if you will. Has worked for me....so far.

Happy & safe flying to all,
 
Well Said

David-aviator said:
Part of the problem of "we need to stop making the same mistakes" is the process of becoming a pilot.

Contrary to the mind set of the marketing of aviation, not everyone is suited to fly airplanes. The notion that this shoe fits everyone is false, some people do not belong in an airplane but they end up there anyhow.

I flew with an 18 year old kid many years ago who could fly better than his instructor, right out of the box. His natural ability was phenomenal, it was in his genes or blood. His uncle also was an excellent pilot and flew the farmer act in a cub at Reinbeck in those days. Last I heard, the kid was flying with the Coast Guard after going through their academy.

I've also flown with ex-military pilots who never really figured it out. They were educated, intelligent, could pass checks rides, get the job done, but never thought like or flew like the 18 year kid.

There are varying degrees of this phenomena. That's why aviation has produced characters like Bob Hoover, they are born with it. We all fit in this scenario somewhere and in order to survive need to know where that is.

This is a problem in general aviation where standards are not controlled as in professional aviation. One can get away with terrible flying habits because someone is not constantly looking over your shoulder demanding safe performance.

I'm not suggesting anyone throw in the towel - unless there is a constant fear or anxiety when in an airplane, that is a symptom of not belonging where you are in any activity.

But be aware, we all have limitations based on native ability. That's where EGO begins to do its ugly thing. A pilot is reluctant to admit he or she does not belong in an airplane. Some do quit after surviving a particularly frightful, self imposed stupid event, some don't have the courage or intelligence to do so. That is a problem.

The reason these "same mistakes" keep happening is carelessness, lack of attention to what is going on in an airplane, and/or EGO. It is a simple as that.
Click to expand...

David, I agree 100%.....well said. I've never seen it stated this way before but it certainly parallels what I've seen around me in aviation.
 
Stop the mistakes

Pierre,
I think you have the most stall turn,stay away from spin experience on this board being a crop duster

And I respect that..

. The comment below is for others hopefully so they can take a training aspect and apply it to their flying to make their landings more consistent.
That said when I was instructing full time we always taught students to do a downwind to base turn at 30 degrees and the a 15 degree bank max base to final. This was really helpful in aircraft which were not like the old 150's. such as the AA 1 A Yankee' or the bellanca scouts or the Citabrias. We taught students to reduce their airspeed abeam the touchdown point to 20 mph above final then with the application of flaps being added they would be about 10 above their final speed ,hopefully 1.3 Vso,on base. Slowing from that till they were at final speed (accounting for wind and gust ) crossing the threshold. 5 mph in training aircraft one way or the other is not deal unless your trying to do a short field under actual conditions.. Like flying out of a 1000 strip everyday but on most airports with 2000+ feet of runway not an issue.

But we did teach one other thing.. One you'll appreciate Pierre since you probably do this by instinct. We would pitch on final to a picture.. I would some times use a grease line placed on the horizon on the windscreen in LEVEL FLIGHT normal cruise,and tell the student to hold that line on the end of the runway coming down final. We teach a pitch attitude in jets today either visually or being established on 3 degree glide slope it just removes one variable on final. We found out in the 70's at PDK we could take a student who never made a landing and have him flying landing himself consistently touching down with in 200 feet every time in 2 hours. You can not make constant landing if your yanking and banking and adding power and taking it out. We 7 instructors taught 1500 VA students in 2 years from Cessna 150's to Lears.
There is nothing magical about it
If x+y equal a successful landing if x is pitch and Y is airspeed and you fix the pitch (X) you only have a throttle to keep the airspeed and altitude (y). there are a lot of buts, but if the pattern is consistent you'll learn this makes shooting a final a piece of cake.

At 1/2 wingspan( or the height of the FBO or half way up the pine trees)put that grease line on the other end of the VISIBLE runway the airspeed will bleed off and if you slowly hold the nose there you will make a pretty nice landing.
Try it... I know their has been a debate for a long time what controls airspeed and altitude while on final and I am not here to debate this, I am just offering a suggestion that does work.

With most accidents happening in the landing phase. Just watch folks land at the fly in's and you'll appreciate that training is needed.
FYI.
Jack
 
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A big wide circuit has to be easier and safer, right?

Wrong!

In the military and in the big jets I fly now, we always use an oval circuit. I have no idea why a square circuit is EVER taught. With the oval circuit, you are constantly assessing how the turn is going. Assuming you want to roll out at 300'/1nm and you start downwind at 1000' then at 90 degrees you should be at about 650'. You can slightly tighten or ease the turn continuously using small corrections. The only rider to that is a "belly check" at the half-way point.

With a square circuit, the temptation is to stay on the base leg until "the right time". If you misjudge that turn on the too late side, you are committed to flying through the centerline or potentially using too much bank at low altitude/speed.

So, I ask again - Why do GA aircraft use a square circuit?
 
Paul, I understand, what your saying but it is generally not experienced pilots who land half way down a runway one time then on the numbers the next time.

The AIM which we have to use as instructors shows all 3 legs in a pattern. As well as 45 degree entree. And we can not teach contrary to it. Due to liability issues. You can not believe the hassles in an accident involving a student you trained 10 years ago or more.. You will be called by an attorney.

The military utilizes 360 overhead approaches and other approach profiles and they fall under a different set of rules than civilian flying.
Jack
 
Smilin' Jack said:
Paul, I understand, what your saying but it is generally not experienced pilots who land half way down a runway one time then on the numbers the next time.

The AIM which we have to use as instructors shows all 3 legs in a pattern. As well as 45 degree entree. And we can not teach contrary to it. Due to liability issues. You can not believe the hassles in an accident involving a student you trained 10 years ago or more.. You will be called by an attorney.

The military utilizes 360 overhead approaches and other approach profiles and they fall under a different set of rules than civilian flying.
Jack
Click to expand...

Sure you can! I have always taught to the PTS/AIM/FAR's etc, then there is the technique side of aviation as well. Giving a student more options to chose from and keep in their tool bag to decide what they like best and what works for them (so long as they can first adhere to PTS standards and know the AIM/FARs). The AIM is not the end all, be all answer for every situation and I'd rather prepare my students with all the tools possible vice they go out and try to figure things out on their own blindly. I certainly hope you're not limiting the scope of your instruction because of liability fears.

The military teaches an oval pattern because it's faster and more efficient. A pattern full of airplanes that have an approach speed of 120+ knots doing a square pattern would be huge. With an oval pattern you can put 6-8 jets in the pattern safely and efficiently. As far as the 360 degree overhead approach, we use that in the military (fighters) because it's the fastest way to scrub off 3-400 knots to get to landing speed and into the pattern. In 180 degrees of turn I can go from 450 to 150 with the gear/flaps down and configured. Trying to do that with an idle descent takes miles/minutes. Plus it looks cool, which is what really matters (and why guys do it in civil aircraft). :D

Paul, to answer your question on why we teach square patterns, and this is purely one mans opinion, it's easier on the student to understand. It's a fixed standard. On downwind fly this power setting/speed, on base fly this, on final fly this. It's much easier for a low time pilot to grasp that (and realize deviations) than it is to constantly monitor/understand/adjust than a more "dynamic" manuver like a 180 degree turn off the abeam (which I fly for the same reasons you alluded to). Because that's what we're taught, it's the standard that we deviate from or go back to when things get busy and confusing. It evolved into what is expected because no one has ever tried to change it, or had good reason to, I suspect.

Smilin' Jack said:
We 7 instructors taught 1500 VA students in 2 years from Cessna 150's to Lears.
Click to expand...

Ok wait, what? That's 214 students per instructor, and 8500 hours just to get each of them the minimum 40 hours for a PPL.:confused:
 
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Primarily in the piston's aircraft we did transition training for copter pilots to get their fix wing ratings usually com/ then ATP. the CE 500 and the Lear 23 did airline pilots who were spending their VA benefit of 14,400 for their
service. this was 1976/to the beginning of 78

the whole purpose was not to have a final say but as I said offer a technique for
newer pilots.
But it has worked for many a pilot
and yes i was dragged into court for an instructor who flat spun his own Baron 55 at Cumming, Georgia. i trained him in a BE18G for his ATP
the baron he got after inhertance from an Aunt.
he crashed 5 years after I recommended Him. he survived the crash but had a 4 inch log sticking through him that the EMT removed, then passed
The backseat student survived but barely.
PDK flight academy finally did train him and he became a private pilot 7 years later
jack
 
stall warner

hevansrv7a said:
<SNIP>
2. What would be the harm in having a stall horn? Really, is it like quiche? I wish I had one like on my old C-150 because I don't like those little external vanes.
Click to expand...


I guess it's too late to add one of these to your already flying plane. Or is this one of the "little external vanes" that you don't like?
 
Bob Martin said:
David, I agree 100%.....well said. I've never seen it stated this way before but it certainly parallels what I've seen around me in aviation.
Click to expand...

Oh, it's been said.... It's just not a popular position!

...and I agree 100%. Flying requires a certain amount of innate skill. Processes and proceedures go a long way toward protecting the unskilled, but not ALL the way. Despite the marketing propaganda, flying is hard... As it should be.
 
Every time I hear about a stall/spin accident, I think about how so many - I'll say most - GA pilots are apprehensive about stalls and positively scared of spins. They never get close, at least not intentionally, and aren't aware of the sights/sounds/feel associated with that portion of the envelope. If they do wind up there, they aren't aware of what to do to correct the situation.

My own opinion is that if someone isn't comfortable doing power off, power on, and accelerated stalls then that is perhaps a sign that some practice would be beneficial.
 
Think P A C

When going around or after recognition of an approaching stall think:
P power - smooth application of full power
A attitude - establish proper pitch attitude
C configuration - then configure for new attitude (flaps, gear, prop, etc)

This acronym is a great reminder of the proper order to return to a safe flying configuration

Craig Brenden
 
paul330 said:
In the military and in the big jets I fly now, we always use an oval circuit. I have no idea why a square circuit is EVER taught. ...

So, I ask again - Why do GA aircraft use a square circuit?
Click to expand...
Because GA aircraft aren't military aircraft or big jets?

More seriously, I think it has a lot to do different speeds and the fact that GA pilots often aren't flying for a living, like DoD or ATP pilots and don't achieve or keep the same level of skill.

Consider wind. If you are flying parallel to or normal (perpendicular) to the runway, you can easily judge the effect of the wind. It may not be a big deal in DoD hardware, where a 15kt wind is, what, <7 to 8% of your approach speed? But in an aircraft that stalls at 40kt, 15kt of wind is a big deal. If you're always turning, its hard to understand where the wind is coming from and its strength, particularly if you're a 20 hr student. Experienced pilots have much more of a feel for wind even in turns. But students and low time pilots have a problem with this. And we shouldn't really have different patterns for low-time and experienced pilots.

Another answer is the ease of consistency. If you are flying downwind, you have a few moments to think about your angle (sorry, glider pilot moment), distance from the runway, speed, checklist, etc. Its hard for a student or low-time / occasional flyer to pull off all of these things while staying in a nice arcing turn. And remember that unlike DoD or ATPs, most GA pilots aren't paid to fly for a living and aren't flying anywhere as much, and skills aren't normally as sharp (generalization, YMMV).

Also, you make the case that in an oval, you are constantly assessing the trajectory. Good. How is this not possible in a rectangular pattern?

TODR
 
paul330 said:
So, I ask again - Why do GA aircraft use a square circuit?
Click to expand...

Square patterns maximize wings level flight. All planes (high wing, low wing, even tail draggers) have the best visibility to co-altitude aircraft (others in the pattern) when wings are level.
 
plehrke said:
Square patterns maximize wings level flight...
Click to expand...

180 degrees of turn is required for either pattern... The rectangular pattern simply has a straight section (base leg) inserted at the 90 degree point. Assuming you are using standard rate turns for each type, the rectangular pattern is bigger, but the time spent with the wing up is the same.
 
Toobuilder said:
180 degrees of turn is required for either pattern... The rectangular pattern simply has a straight section (base leg) inserted at the 90 degree point. Assuming you are using standard rate turns for each type, the rectangular pattern is bigger, but the time spent with the wing up is the same.
Click to expand...

But even 5 secs of wings level on base to check traffic for some one doing a straight in 5 mile final could avert disaster. In a continuous turn you will never see him.
 
By that reasoning, the straight in is the safest of all (no banking).

There are arguments to be made for all approach types. Some minimize "complex" maneuvering time (stabilized, power on), while others are tight and minimize "exposure" time (military style overhead).

Regardless of the approach, I think it's apparent that there is some minimum level of motor skills needed.
 
The rectangular pattern is ideal for visual clearing in a biplane and in aircraft where forward visibility is limited. For the first 30 or so years of aviation, airplanes had lots of wings, poor forward vis, and no radios. The rectangular pattern was king and has since been passed down for thousands of years by flight instructors...
 
The point I was making is that with a square circuit, you have to judge the point at which to turn onto finals. If you leave the turn too late (say with a tightening crosswind), then you have the potential to overbank//stall/spin - the prevention of which was the original intent of this thread. In an oval circuit, the turn is continuous and can be adjusted earlier with smaller corrections.

As far as I can work it out, the length of the downwind leg is identical........ And military pilots aren't born knowing how to fly a circuit. They start with the same experience as anyone else.
 
Familiarity

I have many hours teaching stall/spin in the pattern type scenarios, and the way the aircraft feels before it stalls and/or spins practically screams "danger, danger" to me. I am experienced in doing this enough to say that many pilots I fly with seem, at first, very unaware of this "feel", but can develop it with some practice.

Please, I know I beat this like a dead horse, but everybody that hasn't yet should get some instruction with an acrobatically experienced pilot (I don't teach anymore, so this is not for me at all). It's not the pattern you fly, it's not airspeed or AOA or stick pushers or stall warning horns, yes some of these devices and habits like stabilized approaches are good to have, and do add to safety, but ultimately it's about flying the aircraft at all times with an awareness of where you are in the flight regime, and in small aircraft especially that means both from instruments AND from physical sensation. When you develop this "feel" you will be a better, safer pilot. Instead of focusing on instruments in the cockpit to tell you how close to a stall you are, you can keep more of your attention outside the cockpit in the busy traffic pattern. If you don't do it for yourself, do it for the people who trust you enough to fly with you.
 
N355DW said:
I have many hours teaching stall/spin in the pattern type scenarios, and the way the aircraft feels before it stalls and/or spins practically screams "danger, danger" to me. I am experienced in doing this enough to say that many pilots I fly with seem, at first, very unaware of this "feel", but can develop it with some practice.

Please, I know I beat this like a dead horse, but everybody that hasn't yet should get some instruction with an acrobatically experienced pilot (I don't teach anymore, so this is not for me at all). It's not the pattern you fly, it's not airspeed or AOA or stick pushers or stall warning horns, yes some of these devices and habits like stabilized approaches are good to have, and do add to safety, but ultimately it's about flying the aircraft at all times with an awareness of where you are in the flight regime, and in small aircraft especially that means both from instruments AND from physical sensation. When you develop this "feel" you will be a better, safer pilot. Instead of focusing on instruments in the cockpit to tell you how close to a stall you are, you can keep more of your attention outside the cockpit in the busy traffic pattern. If you don't do it for yourself, do it for the people who trust you enough to fly with you.
Click to expand...

Best post yet.
 
Get the Feel

I am very definitely in the flying by feel camp when the situation calls for it.

Relating to "Slow Flight", I know pilots who think that a decent is normal in a slow flight procedure but its not.

When practicing slow flight choose a target altitude and maintain it while flying as slowly and closely to the stall break as possible. And soon you'll learn the feel of how the plane flys near stall. Our plane will tell us when it is having trouble flying if we will only listen.

A pilot needs to really learn how to fly the plane not just operate it to be safe.

Glenn Wilkinson

P.S. If you got your feeling hurt reading this you need to check that ego
before it gets you hurt.
 
hevansrv7a said:
3. OK, if not a stall horn then at least AOA in a position to get your attention when you are looking outside.[/FONT] I do have that! If it's good enough for carrier based Navy pilots then it's good enough for me. I just wish it had a noisemaker add-on.
Click to expand...

The Dynon has audio for the AOA.
 
N355DW said:
I have many hours teaching stall/spin in the pattern type scenarios, and the way the aircraft feels before it stalls and/or spins practically screams "danger, danger" to me. I am experienced in doing this enough to say that many pilots I fly with seem, at first, very unaware of this "feel", but can develop it with some practice.

Please, I know I beat this like a dead horse, but everybody that hasn't yet should get some instruction with an acrobatically experienced pilot (I don't teach anymore, so this is not for me at all). It's not the pattern you fly, it's not airspeed or AOA or stick pushers or stall warning horns, yes some of these devices and habits like stabilized approaches are good to have, and do add to safety, but ultimately it's about flying the aircraft at all times with an awareness of where you are in the flight regime, and in small aircraft especially that means both from instruments AND from physical sensation. When you develop this "feel" you will be a better, safer pilot. Instead of focusing on instruments in the cockpit to tell you how close to a stall you are, you can keep more of your attention outside the cockpit in the busy traffic pattern. If you don't do it for yourself, do it for the people who trust you enough to fly with you.
Click to expand...

+1000

I am a gadget guy, I like them, but they are NEVER a replacement for the hair on the back of your neck... There are certain things that make those hairs stand up... A tailwind on baseleg, adding power on final, anything that looks like a base to final overshoot, and taking off from airports with no place to go off the end....

Training those hairs to respond appropriately comes from lots of flying, and even more important, flying with people who are better than I am. A pretty easy thing to do in my case...
 
seat of the pants

Expanding on what Damon and Doug posted, how many have spent an hour doing stalls, takeoff and landings with all altitude and airspeed info covered up???
 
Buggsy2 said:
What's happening with that?
Click to expand...

Sorry to be late getting back to you. Short answer: Nothing. Had the physical on 5/17. Haven't heard a bleeping word from the FAA since. Can't even get the letter asking for more info so they can make a decision. I suspect I'll be down for most of the flying season.

I should've just lied on the renewal application questions.
 
I need to add a couple words regarding this accident on Madeline Island. The preliminary NTSB report indicates a botched landing with the prop hitting the runway as well as some other part of the aircraft. The crash occurred on the go around. The nose wheel was found separate from the wreckage. Winds were calm.

Granted the NTSB will eventually come to a final conclusion but it seems to indicate an unstable approach with an attempt to force the airplane on to the runway, hitting the nose wheel and prop and an attempted go around with a damaged aircraft (prop strike). I have been to this airport several times and it is 3000 feet long with good approaches.

As a CFI with 40 years of teaching, I find this type accident so disturbing. Was it lack of currency, lack of proficiency? Don't know. All I can say is that every landing requires a stable approach, on speed, on altitude. If something doesn't feel right, go around early before things fall apart.
 
stall warning noise

Mel said:
The Dynon has audio for the AOA.
Click to expand...

That's good and commendable but not helpful in my case:
1. My AOA ( LRI) is entirely independent of electrics and that is on purpose
2. I already have a GRT system
3. The Cessna system is also entirely non-electric.
 
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