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Ordering engine

Freakshow108

Well Known Member
For those who have ordered a Lycoming engine through Vans during the covid shutdown, what type of lead times have you been given? I understand theses are estimates. Thanks in advance.
 
Just me

I think the lead time depends on engine type. I ordered my io320 thinking it would be a long lead time and i got it much earlier than expected.
 
I ordered my IO-390 (non Thunderbolt) engine on May 4 and I have a July 10 production date. Two notes -- (1) this was part of Van's recent notice of accelerated delivery offer, which may or may not still be available and (2) just as others have mentioned, lead times may be engine specific.
 
For those who have ordered a Lycoming engine through Vans during the covid shutdown, what type of lead times have you been given? I understand theses are estimates. Thanks in advance.

I ordered my IO360M1B engine from Vans last week. The wait time quoted is about 6 months. Thunderbolt engines may take as long as 12 months.
 
I asked Barb in kit sales for current lead time for a non-certified O-360-A1A. She said 3-4 months, thunderbolt 5-6 months.
 
5 Months

I ordered a run of the mill YIO-360M1B on Jan 3rd 2020. Vans called on May 8th asking me to pay the balance, and shipped it first thing the following week.
 
Updates on Current lead time experience

Any one have recent data on their order to delivery dates from Lycoming? Please note if it was non-thunderbolt or thunderbolt
 
Not as current as you're probably looking for.

Ordered 0-360 A1A, twin pmags, (Non Thunderbolt) through Vans back in June 2021 before price hike for an October delivery. I pushed it back until first weeks of December. Sitting in my garage now.

Gives you 1 data point.
 
Just ordered an io-360 m1B non TB before the second round of price hikes….due March 15th 2022. I asked to not take delivery before 31 Dec 2022 as Vans says this is the maximum push out you can currently do. Doesn’t mean the engine will be ready before the end of the year though. I heard up to 12 months plus….love to know from anyone else just ordered as well.
 
ordered a naked TB YO-360-A1A, thru Vans, end of January 22 :)

Lead times acc Jeff (TB) "our lead time right now is Oct/Nov timeframe". Another piece of useful info "the preservation is good for 6 months".
I'd be wary of the preservation, cylinder corrosion starts real quick, the more so on a new engine...
 
I was told by Vans that a request date doesn’t guarantee anything. They said you’re in the queue they produce a batch and it delivers when it’s done. I guess perhaps Lycoming may use that information internally as a courtesy to arrange production to the extent that it doesn’t affect their operation negatively

My dilemma, I’m projecting being ready for the engine May-July 2023
Pre price hike is 37k for Io-360-M1B dual Pmag. Post hike at 10-15% is 40-42k
A pre price hike Thunderbolt is 41K dual Pmag.

Published
Lead on Vanilla is 6 months
Lead on Thunderbolt 12 months

If I want a vanilla to show up in 12 months I’ll wait, pay the price hike and be the same as a thunderbolt order costs now.

If I knew the vanilla was going to take a lot longer to produce that would be my first choice. Since I don’t there’s a 6 one way half a dozen the other situation ordering the Thunderbolt now.

Like a lot of others, my engine and prop budget circa 2020 now just buys an engine sans prop.
Thoughts?
 
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my vanilla M1b is $38039 as Im not buying a prop through Vans. Dont get me wrong its most likely worth getting the 1k off but i'm going fixed pitch and want a catto three blade. Their price with a thousand off is about the price of a catto. and thats two blades. The only prop for the 7 would be the 68" 3 blade for $4700 so thats $3700 with the 1k off....the Catto is $3100 plus all the add on bits and pieces (nickel edges etc) and would run a reasonable bit more but it didnt want to make me afford the deposit and the prop right now.

I read the increase as 15%....when you put 10-15% you mean 15% right?so its $42594. hope i'm wrong for those not in the position to grab one right now.

BTW....I have been trying to get receipt of my payment for the finishing kit and the engine deposits which I have now....and I was told the orders are huge for engines from Vans....so to be honest I wouldn't muck around too long making the Decision.

the other thing that was unclear to me at the time is that it clearly shows that you order and the receipt of your payment (quote from Vans website..."The timing of your order and receipt of your deposit payment establishes the engine price and your place in the manufacturing queue") is important.....yet there are references here on VAF relating to accepting and honouring prices on orders made before the cutoff date...Quote:
Originally Posted by MekMouse View Post
I suppose that means that the order I submitted 8 days ago but not acknowledged will be subjected to the increase.
It means exactly the opposite. You submitted your order prior to the increase. You get the price on the day you sent it to us based on the email or web form submission date/time. Period. Full stop.
__________________
Greg Hughes - Van's Aircraft
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Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.

Building RV-8A since Sept 2014
Dual AFS 5600, Avidyne IFD 440, Whirlwind 74RV, Superior XP IO-360
VAF build thread - Flickr photo album - Project Facebook page
Aurora, OR (EAA Chapter 105) ...Unquote"

so based on that Id safely assume that you officially order before the 15th of this month and without receipt, acknowledgement or payment request your price is locked in. Thats great to know.

Plus on a communication this morning ...."quote.....as you can imagine we are inundated with orders trying to beat the price increase for lycoming engines. Currently their lead time was 6 months for the standard and 8-10 months for the thunderbolts- but the volume of orders we are seeing may well push that out further".Unquote

......does not help much but thats the current time frame without lycoming announcing longer lead times when it gets these max influx of orders. Im hoping that they communicate with us anyone wanting to delay their engines can do so past 31 Dec 2022 if its holding up others wanting theirs sooner. Id agree to that as I really don't want the engine for a couple years at least!
 
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10-15%

Vans engine order page says 10-15%. That’s across the product line. I assume Lycoming did not specify what gets 10,12, or 15%.
I spoke to a Lycoming distributor yesterday and he said the number of Thunderbolt orders he had to beat the increase was A LOT. He expects 12-14 months. Also they had to have orders in by March 4 (10 days earlier than Van’s) That may be an internal to their company for the accounting department.
 
All new to this but if I may ask, if you order directly through Vans, is it a 25% deposit and then the balance due upon delivery? I have JUST ordered my Emp and wing kit for the 10 and obviously do not need the engine for probably 5 years based on lead times and build times. Does it make any sense to put a deposit down, take delivery in a year or so and just not even open the crate until it’s needed? I realize the warranty expires 2 years after delivery but I’m also assuming this won’t be the only price increase headed our way so I’m torn. Financially, I can put 25% down now but the whole shebang would probably get me divorced at this point as we’re also in the middle of an extended escrow for a new home.
Thoughts?
Paul.
 
Have to order all the kits

All new to this but if I may ask, if you order directly through Vans, is it a 25% deposit and then the balance due upon delivery? I have JUST ordered my Emp and wing kit for the 10 and obviously do not need the engine for probably 5 years based on lead times and build times. Does it make any sense to put a deposit down, take delivery in a year or so and just not even open the crate until it’s needed? I realize the warranty expires 2 years after delivery but I’m also assuming this won’t be the only price increase headed our way so I’m torn. Financially, I can put 25% down now but the whole shebang would probably get me divorced at this point as we’re also in the middle of an extended escrow for a new home.
Thoughts?
Paul.

You have to have all kits on order through finishing kit before they let you order the engine so you'd be looking at 25% down on fuse, finishing and engine. I'm building a 10 too and just going to let the prices increase because cash is king. Hard to create food or house payments out of an airplane engine collecting dust. Just my opinion though.
 
Yep. Good point. Just sucks to see these prices escalate like this. As a point of reference and because this is all new to me, does anyone know when Lycoming last raised their prices and by how much?
 
According to Vans, any request for a delivery date is a courtesy, and Lycoming will not delay the order beyond 12/31/2022 unless THEY have a production issue. If you want it after that then you are going to incur the price increase. If you ask for an engine you're getting one. The other 75% is due immediately when the engine is complete. Also according to Vans, people ordered engines last price increase and when it was time to pay they asked if they could take delivery in 2-3 years. Which resulted in cancellations/issues etc. They made very clear if you are not going to take delivery don't order it.

If you think you can keep it in a controlled environment and store it properly and are going to finish the airplane then it's up to you if it's worth it.
At the rate they are compunding price hikes, I'd say its only 2 or 3 increases from $50K vanilla IO-360-M1B's that were less than 30K 2 years ago. Can't imagine what a 540 is going to be.
 
Yep. Good point. Just sucks to see these prices escalate like this. As a point of reference and because this is all new to me, does anyone know when Lycoming last raised their prices and by how much?

July 2021 was 13%. In years past (going back 30+ years of my RV involvement), increases have been about once a year at around 1% more than inflation.
 
Think I am going to order and store it in my Montana place until I am ready. Much drier air there than Texas.
 
I better get my butt in gear or I’m gonna get priced out on the market

That's my concern too. Hoping UL Power continues to become a more viable with FWF kits and will start putting significant cost pressure on Lycoming. 40 grand for 180hp is absurd.
 
That's my concern too. Hoping UL Power continues to become a more viable with FWF kits and will start putting significant cost pressure on Lycoming. 40 grand for 180hp is absurd.

$ per HP a 540 is worse. Try 60k USD for a 540 with SDS and two alternators no fancy CAI. I agree absurd. Wait till 100LL hits 3.00 litre here in Canada.

Keith
 
I deposited on a vanilla M1B and asked for it on 31st dec this year or later if Lycoming cant keep up. I really dont want it....I have and empennage...waiting on wings and fuse which after lead time of 6 months on order turns out to be closer to 15 to 17 months before I see them. So....ill have an engine just after the standard kit items turn up....going to have to find a really good way of storing it and looking after it....and Ill have to build quickly. Saved $9k NZD by buying it before the rise and quite possibly up to $20k NZD if I waited a couple years...second hand?....nah...dont really know what you are getting and a rebuild might put it over the top of new experimental engine price from Vans. IN fact someone mentioned 50K + for a plain vanilla M1B a few posts back...from Lycoming direct (certified) its already there....
If the proverbial $hit hits the fan...Im sure ill sell it for more than it cost me.
plus I had to order the finish kit in line with Vans policy however they currently are not enforcing that I was told....I left the order in as that will just go up in time too...Missed out on the cheaper price by one day (6%) on that one though.

I want to ditch the tail wheel and put a fly boys one on it.....sure they should accept a change seeing as Im mucked around on the lead times so much.
 
According to Vans, any request for a delivery date is a courtesy, and Lycoming will not delay the order beyond 12/31/2022 unless THEY have a production issue. I ordered the Thunderbolt YIO-390-EXP119 on Mar 11, 2022.

Lycoming told me that the soonest they would have my engine ready to ship is May/June of 2023.

So while I like Van's enough to order their kit, their scheduling troubles have me doubting their projections for someone else's production, since they have so much trouble with their own.

I believe Lycoming.
 
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Well that’s good for me then Greg. I ordered three weeks before the price rise however the non TB engines are quicker on the production line….still don’t want it for years but no option.
 
Saving 10% immediately is one of the best investments I've made in a while. Besides that, considering the erroneous lead times I've received for kits so far, I do not want to risk having a completed airframe sitting idle waiting for an engine. I'd rather have the engine waiting for me than vice-versa.

Potential warranty issues suck, but that also means when that engine is staring up at me from the hangar floor, it should be a motivator to get the project DONE.
 
Saving 10% immediately is one of the best investments I've made in a while. Besides that, considering the erroneous lead times I've received for kits so far, I do not want to risk having a completed airframe sitting idle waiting for an engine. I'd rather have the engine waiting for me than vice-versa.

Potential warranty issues suck, but that also means when that engine is staring up at me from the hangar floor, it should be a motivator to get the project DONE.
i second that..... great motivator
 
Just don't be like me, I bought my engine in 1993 and I am still building! :eek:

:eek:

well check out the tool line up at aircraft spruce...i nearly fell off my chair...reamers etc...basic tools with Lycoming written on them....$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ of dollars. as in a reamer could be $3000....and something with the name lycoming fixture get this...$36000......WTH? no wonder our 1950's oversized VW engines cost so much....its gotten out of control...time for a decent alternative maybe...:rolleyes:
 
That’s what I was getting at asking about a diesel. Of course the Continental diesel will never be a bargain. Have any of the Chevy 350 conversions been successful? I really don’t know and you certainly don’t see very many out there. I had heard that Rotax was working on an engine in the 250-300hp range. No info on that one either but since I just put my deposit down on the Emp and wing kit, I’m hoping that there my be an option to at least discuss at the appropriate time. I’m all in and will purchase what makes sense when that time comes- even if that is a 90k 540 that is in the 290 hp range and full electronic with a composite 3 blade prop.
 
UPDATE: I found this thread that deals with automotive engines. It doesn’t sound very promising. https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=78924&page=2

I watched a fairly lengthy utube video on the merits of automotive engines in aircraft and it appeared a few makers had entered the market with most leaving a number of unsupported engines (porche, mercedes etc) ending up with these aircraft being re engined by you guessed it…lycoming or continental. Most motor vehicle engines produce higher rpm and don’t operate continuously at 75% of max power. So you need a gearbox. The venerable old aircraft engine is massively overbuilt for the power output chugging away at 2200 to 2700 rpm. They have been made mostly bullet proof. No one seems to want to take on the liabilities although the experimental market would? Diesel is getting there but still too heavy for the output for us. I reckon don’t hold your breath for any acceptable alternatives that are cheaper in the near future and if you find something you might likely reduce the value of your aircraft considerably because anyone can sort out a lycoming or continental powered aircraft with current engines still being produced.
For me…following in the well trodden path was the only way to go so I have my new vastly overly expensive 1950’s designed big VW engine on the way.
They are nothing hugely special so What is to blame? Cost of certification, buracracy, greed….no acceptable alternatives? Who knows….but veering off the path is for those that like punishment and truly I hope someone does one day produce an awesome alternative…but for now I believe we are stuck with them.
 
I have my new vastly overly expensive 1950’s designed big VW engine on the way.
They are nothing hugely special so What is to blame? Cost of certification, buracracy, greed….no acceptable alternatives? Who knows….but veering off the path is for those that like punishment and truly I hope someone does one day produce an awesome alternative…but for now I believe we are stuck with them.

I like to think I have a very expensive PORSCHE engine.
 
So who has been contacted by chris at lycoming….asking when you want your engine? Hundreds of orders…..what did you say and anyone got any replies..

I said I don’t care if my one is 2 years plus.
 
Chris called me a couple weeks ago to confirm delivery. He said they had 300 orders and are looking at least 18 months lead time for non-Thunderbolt engines. Works for me as I'm at least 18 months out from needing an engine.
 
After speaking to Lycoming at Sun N Fun, I wish I would have ordered and taken advantage of the lower price. They told me a Thunderbolt is likely 2 years out now. That would have worked out perfectly. Now I have to decided, do I order now so I have a number in line, wait until I "need" it and hope the lead times are less, or hope to find someone who ordered now and no longer needs the engine...
 
They seemed to be pretty flexible when I ordered mine, and willing to move things around. But a lot probably changed in two years with COVID coming and going. My timeline (IO-360-M1B, non-thunderbolt) was:

3-Feb-2020: Ordered engine, ETA 2-Nov-2020

21-Apr-2020: Chris E-mailed me asking if I wanted it earlier due to cancelations. I told him no, I probably won't be ready for it.

30-Jun-2020: Reached back out to Chris and changed my mind and I'll take it earlier if the offer is still open. He moved the ETA up to 21-Aug-2020

12-Oct-2020: Engine actually delivered

...which it seems is pretty great compared to today. I seem to have had really lucky timing.
 
I got the call

I ordered my engine right before the March price increase, like many others. Chris called a couple of weeks ago to ask how soon I need it. I told him I am probably 18 months away and he could move me to the end of the line. He seemed to appreciate my willingness to wait, and I appreciate him calling me to prioritize the customer wait list.
 
I ordered my engine right before the March price increase, like many others. Chris called a couple of weeks ago to ask how soon I need it. I told him I am probably 18 months away and he could move me to the end of the line. He seemed to appreciate my willingness to wait, and I appreciate him calling me to prioritize the customer wait list.

Yes I asked for the long wait too….I’m seriously early….but I think these engines will just continue to climb in price. Mine ordered three weeks ahead of the deadline to the price increase. If it’s 18 months it will still be early so I’m hoping for two years although I imagine 18 months will be closer to the crate date. Suits me….I have only built the tail and due to the late late late wings and fuse that should be here two months ago which I won’t see until October probably I’ll still have it sitting around a long while
 
Got the Call

Just a reference point....I ordered the day before the March increase (plain Jane IO-390-EXP), and I just got a call from Chris asking when I actually needed the engine.

I pushed it out knowing I probably won't need it until late next year, but he also said if that changed and I needed it sooner, they would try to accommodate.

Other thing he mentioned was that if the supply chain issues all magically went away, then you need to take delivery when it's done....but he didn't think that was going to happen anytime soon.
 
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