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I hate paying the XM bill, but I love the service!

Walt

Walt

Well Known Member
Today while returning from a short flight I entered the pattern at 52F from the east side due to the TFR that comes within about a mile of the airport on the west side around Alliance Airport for this weekends airshow.

Just after I announce my turn to downwind I hear:

"Nxxx 3 miles south entering the downwind for 17 at Northwest Regional"

AFW tower- "Nxxx on downwind at Northwest Regional I need you to call me concerning a possible TFR violation, advise when ready to copy"

Now I may not like paying the subscription to XM every month, but I gotta be honest, sometimes when I'm just local I don't do all my homework. But the BIG RED CIRCLE on the 696 is hard to miss. It popped up last week as a yellow circle so I knew it was coming but nevertheless, without it I could have been "that poor guy" :eek:

XM just payed for itself... again!
 
Same good experiences with TFRs & XM. During the summer, there has been plenty of popup TFRs do to mountain forest fires in the west. These TFRs would even change shape. Sure beats trying to find all this info from other means, especially when the flight plan is changed on the "fly", while airborne.

edit: an editorial....

And then there are those who say "leave the GPS home once and a while..... on your cross country trips, to keep up with basic navigation skills". I say BULL! Basic navigation never included up to date... real time information, such as we get from XM, let alone the exact coordinates of the TFRs on a moving map. I say a better prepared pilot, is one who uses the modern map GPS system.

L.Adamson ---696 & XM
 
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Pilots have been getting briefings and avoiding TFRs well before the advent of XM. ;) It is a nice service, though.
 
Or perhaps a good reason to not use your tail number when making position reports at an uncontrolled airport.
 
jcaplins said:
Or perhaps a good reason to not use your tail number when making position reports at an uncontrolled airport.
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A lot of times they'll follow you with radar, and have airport personnel, open the hangar for verification if necessary.
 
Flyfalcons said:
Pilots have been getting briefings and avoiding TFRs well before the advent of XM. ;) It is a nice service, though.
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I haven't been flying that long, but would it be accurate to assume that TFRs these days are lot more frequent and last-minute than they ever use to be?

And, apparently, you still have to deal with all the hurrah for flying into a TFR that was established *after* you takeoff.
 
I was able to advice a couple of transient spray pilots of a TFR around the Lincoln, NE airport due to the Blue Angels. They were headed right for it and had no idea, nor were they talking to any one but 122.75. They said thank you!
 
ccrawford said:
I haven't been flying that long, but would it be accurate to assume that TFRs these days are lot more frequent and last-minute than they ever use to be?

And, apparently, you still have to deal with all the hurrah for flying into a TFR that was established *after* you takeoff.
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It basically boils down to using an FAA-approved source for NOTAMs and weather before departure. Calling FSS and asking for a NOTAM/TFR check is one of the most important things a pilot needs to do before flight. Checking a portable GPS doesn't cut it.

I'm willing to bet this pilot wishes he had made a call to FSS before takeoff ;) :
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012647005_sonicbooms18m.html

What's really interesting to me is that FAA's own graphical TFR page ( http://tfr.faa.gov/tfr2/list.html ) doesn't consider itself an official source.
 
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Flyfalcons said:
It basically boils down to using an FAA-approved source for NOTAMs and weather before departure. Calling FSS and asking for a NOTAM/TFR check is one of the most important things a pilot needs to do before flight. Checking a portable GPS doesn't cut it.
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And I'll certainly disagree with that statement.

In this day and age, Internet based weather, along with satellite inflight weather and advisories beats the "outdated" method of telephoning your local FSS by miles. It's time to step into the future. The old way was acceptable for it's day, but no more. Let's just say that those with inflight weather and up to date advisories are ahead of the game.

L.Adamson
 
L.Adamson said:
And I'll certainly disagree with that statement.

In this day and age, Internet based weather, along with satellite inflight weather and advisories beats the "outdated" method of telephoning your local FSS by miles. It's time to step into the future. The old way was acceptable for it's day, but no more. Let's just say that those with inflight weather and up to date advisories are ahead of the game.

L.Adamson
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Larry, you're probably right from a practical standpoint, but I sure like having a voice record demonstrating that I got a TFR brief from the FAA before I go flying. That's essentially a bullet proof defense against enforcement action resulting from a pop-up TFR.
 
I just heard of another example of a pilot using XM for TFR updating and violating a presidential TFR. I agree the FAA really needs to jump on the technology curve. I can't imagine why calling would work better than instantly updating a GPS TFR and sending it out before it becomes active. This really needs to be addressed. Especially if one becomes active during flight.
 
Kyle Boatright said:
Larry, you're probably right from a practical standpoint, but I sure like having a voice record demonstrating that I got a TFR brief from the FAA before I go flying. That's essentially a bullet proof defense against enforcement action resulting from a pop-up TFR.
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Agree 100%. I self-brief via electronic media, then make a cell call on the way to the airport and ask for a TFR only. I want the audio recorded and the call record on my phone.....which is not to discount Walt and Larry's comments. No doubt XM will save my bacon eventually. I'm often guilty of launching the return trip without a brief.
 
There is a serious flaw trying to convey a physical image when all you have is words - whether written or spoken. NOTAMS often (and TFRs always) are attempting to describe a physical space. Eg "an area bounded by 18.1 miles on the 250 radial from KBX to 9.4 miles on the 110 radial of KAX to 28.7 miles on the 090 radial of KZX". Unless you pull out a chart and actually draw this out, you won't know for sure where it is. And even then, once in the air, it was hard to be sure. So, "back in the day" you just gave it a wide margin of error.

My point is (1) if you don't have some form of navigation which accurately pinpoints your location and the location of specific airspace, you will need a larger margin; however, with more and more controlled airspace, the margins between are shrinking. (2) NOTAMs, TFRs, weather, and any other "data" that has a physical description should have physical depiction. It just does not make sense anymore to "describe a circle" with words.
 
but I sure like having a voice record demonstrating that I got a TFR brief from the FAA before I go flying. That's essentially a bullet proof defense against enforcement action resulting from a pop-up TFR.

__________________
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Unless something has changed it should be remembered that XM TFRs are not completely up to date on weekends, holidays, and after a certain time on weekdays. I think the same can be said for AOPA's TFR page. So if for no other reason than as quoted above a calll to the FSS is in order.
 
Proof of a briefing

I have my Ipad and Foreflight set to use my DUATS account so every time I pull a briefing on it, it is actually pulling it using my account on the DUATS servers. This serves the same purpose as actually pulling the briefing on the DUATS website.
 
XM - TFR

I was flying back from South Carolina to Baltimore on Sunday. I had heard there were going to be a bunch of TFRs stretching across North Carolina on Monday. Sure enough, they showed up on my 496 (w/ XM) as a line of overlapping yellow ovals. Right-clicking showed the activation periods. Sure was nice. I wonder how many pilots busted these TFRs on Monday?

A few years ago, I knew about a TFR that was on my proposed route of flight. I called up for the brief, and waited to be told about the TFR. It didn't happen. So I asked, any TFR's? No. Then I said, isn't there a TFR near so and so. Oh yeah, there is a TFR there, and goes on to give the info on it like they were doing me a favor, giving me the info. Since then I do my own briefs from online sources.
 
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L.Adamson said:
And I'll certainly disagree with that statement.

In this day and age, Internet based weather, along with satellite inflight weather and advisories beats the "outdated" method of telephoning your local FSS by miles. It's time to step into the future. The old way was acceptable for it's day, but no more. Let's just say that those with inflight weather and up to date advisories are ahead of the game.

L.Adamson
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Larry I agree that having a depiction on the GPS is a great tool but it cannot be relied on in leiu of an approved source NOTAM/TFR/Wx check.

Just as in DanH's post, I'll check weather (and take full responsibility for that) on my own, and on the way to the airport I call FSS, give them a description of my flight area for the day, and specifically ask for "NOTAMs, TFRs, or anything else that could get me in trouble".
 
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Not much faith in briefers...

as the FAA started shutting down locally manned weather observation stations and really got excited about consolidating weather briefing centers the quality of the 'brief' took a dramatic nose dive when I was flying in Alaska... fortunately the availability of near real time data on the Internet was becoming broadly available and has continued to expand. I made the tranition away from phone based briefings years ago and will never go back. Near the end it was painfully obvious that the 'briefers' had little if any flight experience in general an no background with the local conditions and passes... the idea that you could get better quality data from a CYA phone conversation than directly managing your collection of data is laughable... the idea that a recorded call gives some special protection for TFR violations is irritating.

If the FAA wants me to stay out of airspace it needs to be communicated easily and efficiently... until ADSB is broadly available, XM, and now Foreflight (4.2), are the ticket for me for TFR details.
 
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I try to use FF for short local flight and file IFR for a bit longer, with the hopes that FF will warn me for any pop up type TFR.

But I need to do a better job in checking against them myself prior to the local flight.
 
Maybe a little thread drift...but

I was at an airshow where the Blue Angels were performing a formation loop. As the team pulled up to vertical, a Cessna motored in perpendicular to the runway and flew through the center of the loop at about 2,500 feet. The Blues broke off at the top of the loop and waited until the Cessna was gone. People in the crowd were asking if it was part of the show.
The Cessna appeared to have departed a local airport and was overflying the nearby Air Force base where the air show was going on. I'm sure he was not monitoring the tower. But my question was, how could the Cessna pilot miss seeing the smoke from 6 jet fighters?
 
The one problem with getting a voice briefing for a local flight that has no pre-defined destination is that the FAA can?t give you good information.

Years ago I went for a local flight in my T-Craft and did the FAA weather briefing. When I asked if there was anything special in the area they said ?no?. Well, I flew into an airport next to the Charlotte Motor Speedway only to find out that there was a temporary tower in effect (It is now a full time class Delta airport). I was invited to visit the tower and asked them why they didn?t monitor the Unicom frequency, to which they had no answer. As soon as I got home, I filled out a ?get out of jail free? card and never heard any more.

Thus, I check the AOPA site and my 496 for TFR?s and such. However, the people who enter the data for the TFRs have been known to get them wrong.

On the other side, the definition of a TFR is confusing to me. Heck, the POTUS just shut down half of North Carolina last week so he could start his campaign tour by bus. The TFR was HUGE and moved around a good bit. I wonder how many people they busted with that one.

Next year when the Democratic National Convention is in Charlotte, it is going to be a nightmare.
 
Whilst learning to fly , back in 2005, my instructor sent me along on a flight with a friend of his that had just bought on of the schools Piper Seminoles. During the flight he gave me his Garmin 496 that he had just paid $2500 for brand new. I spent the flight oohing and aching at the satellite weather, lightning strikes 500 miles away, the satellite images etc. Then as we flew along downwind at our destination a little red circle appeared 1/2 Nm off the approach end of the runway.
"Is that what I think it is ?" I asked.
"Sure is " he replied.
"Your controls!" I said as we turned a tight base to final.
Earlier in the week there had been a wildfire in the area and I guess the fire boss had returned to ensure that it was all out.
Also during my training my instructor and I listened to another pilot ask the fire boss if there was a TFR over there by that area of smoke. Hold on was the reply. There is now came just a few seconds later.
So I guess the moral of the story, these days, is whilst we should all ring up or get a briefing that is recorded somewhere, with the state of modern technology, that information can be obsolete by the time we finish the pre-flight Even if we run out to the aircraft.
Having the technology fired up in the cockpit with you doesn't stop you from flying "raw data" pen and paper ded reckoning but it might just help you avoid having to write a telephone number on your kneeboard and a wonderful days flying ruined.
 
N395V said:
Unless something has changed it should be remembered that XM TFRs are not completely up to date on weekends, holidays, and after a certain time on weekdays. I think the same can be said for AOPA's TFR page. So if for no other reason than as quoted above a calll to the FSS is in order.
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It's always been weekends, that XM has worked well for TFRs. One Sunday, earlier this summer, a TFR changed from a circle to a parallelogram shape for a fire area. TFRs for airports closed for airshows also work well on weekends.

L.Adamson
 
Would not be without my XM especially for the TFRs. But check out the
new Foreflight update. You can now overlay the TFRs on the map page.
Must be updated prior to flight however (unless you get a little 3G while
airborne). Lots of other cool improvements. Especially zooming the map.
Big improvement.
 
Remember that Stadium TFR's will not be depicted and FSS briefing will not advise you

The ridiculous and of no value except to trap unsuspecting pilots TFR's around stadiums will not show up on XM and the briefer has no idea where and when they are either. That is a big problem. With football season in full swing there is a 3 mile radius TFR around every Division 1 college and professional football stadiums from one before until one hour after. How do you know when a game ends and then add one hour to that???

The only way I know to do it is if you are flying to a city with major college or professional football check the schedule online to see if the team is home or not and when the game is supposed to start. The other option is maintain over 3000' AGL above any possible football stadium.

This type of TFR also applies to professional baseball and some motor car races. Be careful. I am aware of some pilots flying into Santa Monica airport from the east who were unfamiliar with the location of Dodger Stadium and cruised right on through while a ball game was in progress and got into trouble with the FAA. I do not know the outcome of these inadvertent transgressions however.


These type of TFR including both Disneylands do not do anything to reduce the risk of a terrorist incident involving a plane at these venues. Our pilot associations should be fighting to get these eliminated.
 
dabney said:
These type of TFR including both Disneylands do not do anything to reduce the risk of a terrorist incident involving a plane at these venues. Our pilot associations should be fighting to get these eliminated.
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Amen Brother Dabney! I was living near Chicago when 9/11 happened and then-Mayor Daily wanted a no fly zone around downtown. Why he thought someone intent on committing suicide by flying into a building would give a hoot about violating a no-fly zone baffled the heck out of me!

It is obvious by the number of inadvertent incursions by pilots that TFRs offer no real protection but do show the location of prime targets for terrorists. Makes no sense at all. Maybe they should change the symbol from a circle to a target!
 
All available data...

I like getting TFR and other data from my old 396 with XM.

I don't particularly like calling 1-800-WXBRIEF to get the "Official" briefing, but I do most of the time, not so much for the information but for "legal" reasons, just in case...:rolleyes:

I do like using Weathermeister for my flight planning. In addition to user customizable formats of weather information including a full weather briefing, Dan C. includes a page of "TFR Monitors" which will generate emails for TFR's at or near airports of your choosing as well as TFR's that may "pop-up" along your intended route.

We live in a changing world. It's challenging to keep up.

"Data, give me more data..." :D
(Is that a line from a movie? If not, it should be.)
 
I have to agree with Larry on this one.

I'm usually a big advocate of putting away the GPS every now and then and breaking out the map and stop watch to stay sharp.

However in this case, calling FSS to get weather the old way vice real time updates and TFR's via XM.... if you've got the tools, use 'em. In this case, there's not much training to be had doing it the "old school" way. Especially with how fast things change these days.
 
Sig600 said:
I'm usually a big advocate of putting away the GPS every now and then and breaking out the map and stop watch to stay sharp.
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He,he...

Not me! I prefer nailing all those military & class B boundaries around here.........within a foot or three. We have lots of them, and narrow corridors as well. In my opinion, unless we're thoroughly familiar with the area, then GPS is going to be far more accurate, in just a mere second or two.............than mulling over the equations in your mind.

I guess I could always do the maps and stop watches for fun. Just like setting the OBS..............if I had one.

However, the GPS will always go along, on cross countries.

L.Adamson
 
L.Adamson said:
He,he...

Not me! I prefer nailing all those military & class B boundaries around here.........within a foot or three. We have lots of them, and narrow corridors as well. In my opinion, unless we're thoroughly familiar with the area, then GPS is going to be far more accurate, in just a mere second or two.............than mulling over the equations in your mind.

I guess I could always do the maps and stop watches for fun. Just like setting the OBS..............if I had one.

However, the GPS will always go along, on cross countries.

L.Adamson
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Break out a sectional and figure how how to keep yourself out of all that SUA using ground gouge. It's much easier once you find the land marks, and will be immensely useful the day your GPS takes a dump and you're skirting a boundary, or LightSquared flips a switch and screws all of us.
 
Sig600 said:
Break out a sectional and figure how how to keep yourself out of all that SUA using ground gouge. It's much easier once you find the land marks, and will be immensely useful the day your GPS takes a dump and you're skirting a boundary, or LightSquared flips a switch and screws all of us.
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I'd like to see you navigate VFR around our DFW class B using just a chart doing 150K, can you spell "BUSTED".

Landmarks, what landmarks: in TX it all looks the same, brown, barron, flat.

I'm with L. Adamson on this one!
 
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Sig600 said:
Break out a sectional and figure how how to keep yourself out of all that SUA using ground gouge. It's much easier once you find the land marks, and will be immensely useful the day your GPS takes a dump and you're skirting a boundary, or LightSquared flips a switch and screws all of us.
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I've always reviewed and carried sectionals for any area I've flown. The sectional is on my kneeboard, which actually fits rather well in an RV without a center post.

On the other hand, a good moving map GPS, such as my Garmin 696 is just a much better way of doing things. Boundaries and my aircraft's location are at a glance. I can keep my eyes out of the cockpit longer, for a better traffic scan.

As far as the GPS taking a dump, there is always a chance of course. But it is my fifth Garmin aviation GPS, and none of them have took a dump. It was 1993, when I purchased my first one. It did momentarily loose it's signal in 1994. I also have a spare GPS on the right side of the cockpit.

L.Adamson
 
L.Adamson said:
I've always reviewed and carried sectionals for any area I've flown. The sectional is on my kneeboard, which actually fits rather well in an RV without a center post.

On the other hand, a good moving map GPS, such as my Garmin 696 is just a much better way of doing things. Boundaries and my aircraft's location are at a glance. I can keep my eyes out of the cockpit longer, for a better traffic scan.

As far as the GPS taking a dump, there is always a chance of course. But it is my fifth Garmin aviation GPS, and none of them have took a dump. It was 1993, when I purchased my first one. It did momentarily loose it's signal in 1994. I also have a spare GPS on the right side of the cockpit.

L.Adamson
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I'll just always remember sitting on the airport bench when I was in high school playing with my new gps I'd just bought. One of the first gen Magellan handhelds (4 channel reciever, no moving map, weighed about 8 lbs, it was AWESOME!). A frequent customer of ours with a twin commanche begged and pleaded with me to let him borrow it, otherwise he couldn't get home, 300 miles away. His had died. I was dumbfounded, and always swore from that day on I'd never be that guy. I certainly love technology, and use it, but I would never let my skills get so bad that I couldn't operate without it.

If you think DFW at 150 is hard, try doubling the speed. Had to go in/out of Ellington with no INS or nav radios ferrying a broken jet across the country. It can be done!

I'm just old school. My mk1 mod 0 eyeballs, pencil and paper have never failed. Doesn't mean I don't still use all the toys though!
 
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Sig600 said:
I'm just old school. My mk1 mod 0 eyeballs, pencil and paper have never failed. Doesn't mean I don't still use all the toys though!
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I'm getting older (60)..........just not old school. If I could go back in my time machine for the last 90 years or so; I could place one of these hand-held thing a ma jigs (so called toys) in front of all these thousands of pilots who unfortunately clobbered rising terrain with little or no warning. Of course, sad as it is, their passengers and aircraft went with them.

The 24+ orbiting satellites with precision atomic clocks would also have to stay in place, while my time machine ventures back through the decades. If I could do this, I believe that these "gizmo's" would be considered anything but a toy. That's why I'm often surprised, that some still refer to GPS as gizmo's, toys, cheat boxes, etc. A GPS isn't any of those. It's part of a very precision navigation system, that can run circles around anything before it. Pencils, charts, VORs, as well as prior radio nav systems just weren't good enough.

L.Adamson
 
Just for information, I have had the GPS signal fail. More than once. Not my GPS EQUIPMENT, the GPS SIGNAL. In each case, the outage was notam'ed (caused I believe by military tests or jamming). In one of the cases, the notam was even published before my take-off.

I use GPS as my primary navigation as well. But if you think it is absolutely one hundred percent reliable, you are deluding yourself. Be prepared to navigate by alternate means.

Pat
 
4kilo said:
Just for information, I have had the GPS signal fail. More than once. Not my GPS EQUIPMENT, the GPS SIGNAL. In each case, the outage was notam'ed (caused I believe by military tests or jamming). In one of the cases, the notam was even published before my take-off.

I use GPS as my primary navigation as well. But if you think it is absolutely one hundred percent reliable, you are deluding yourself. Be prepared to navigate by alternate means.
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When they're making test's, as they've been doing even more lately, it's bound to be screwed, and as you say NOTAM'ed. I'd never say 100% reliable, and always am prepared by other means, such as following along on the sectionals, that I already mentioned. I don't use VOR's, as I have no NAV radios.

My main interest in GPS, is the terrain and obstacle data-bases. Along with synthetic vision, it even gets better. Of course direct routing, XM weather, auto-pilot & fuel monitoring functions are very useful too.

I seem to have this passion about not flying into mountains. We use to average three a year, around here. This newer technology can only help, and not hinder, unless used very unwisely.

L.Adamson
 
Pat brings up a good point, gps jamming (accidental or otherwise) is becoming more and more pervasive. I can tell you the jamming equipment we use, the NOTAMS don't always seem to get published. I'm also finding more and more reports of truckers using cheap jammers to block the tracking devices in their rigs. There was an entire approach in to Teterboro NJ shut down for monrpths because the FBI couldn't find out where the jamming was coming from. Was a truck stop under the initial.

Anyone with an Internet connection and $50 can build a pretty powerful gps jammer.
 
Sig600 said:
Pat brings up a good point, gps jamming (accidental or otherwise) is becoming more and more pervasive. I can tell you the jamming equipment we use, the NOTAMS don't always seem to get published. I'm also finding more and more reports of truckers using cheap jammers to block the tracking devices in their rigs. There was an entire approach in to Teterboro NJ shut down for monrpths because the FBI couldn't find out where the jamming was coming from. Was a truck stop under the initial.

Anyone with an Internet connection and $50 can build a pretty powerful gps jammer.
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Yet, we know that day in and day out, that thousands of aircraft are succesfully using GPS guidance. There is no way that I'm going to agree with the position that GPS has too much of a chance to fail, that it should only be used as a backup, that it's a toy, that's it's seductive (heard that one too)...............on and on, and on.

What I do know for a fact.............is that many "old school" instructors who still are out there, are somewhat intimidated by glass panel GPS, let alone the varied brands that a student might pack along. This itself, weighs with their decision making process, in regards to the students use of GPS. This cannot be denied. It is pure fact!

The inflight information gleemed from the old school process is completely outdated, when compared to what you can do these days. So why not teach it? Good ****, some students are so intimidated by their old way instructors, that they don't even have a clue of what's available. They just walk away from every lesson believing that GPS is "cheating". I've already mentioned the instructor that told me I should be setting my OBSs before every flight............or I shouldn't even have the right to fly. That's non-sense!

And this is nothing personal to anyone here. I just really get ******, when I read some magazine article, in which someone delcares that we should do cross country's while leaving the GPS home once and a while. The claim is to keep our skills up. That's BS! What is really means, is that we'll be flying just like the old days...........in which we didn't have real time anything. It was always call the FSS, or just don't know for sure. Now...........I can make strategic inflight decisions hundreds of miles in advance, due to weather, winds, etc. And I don't have to stick my head into the cockpit to triangulate between two VORs in a rugged mountainous area, as that flight instructor suggested I do, when I said I prefer more direct routing.

AH...........................

L.Adamson
 
You're right, GPS is reliable enough for sole means. However so are all the other methods. I'm just saying, all the eggs in one basket, etc etc. If something can break/fail it always does so at the most inopportune time.

Did you ever ask that instructor "what if I don't have anything to turn the OBS to?". That's pretty narrow sighted!
 
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