Norman CYYJ
Well Known Member
I am kind of curious, how RVers have ground looped their plane? We all talk about other mishaps but never ground loops.
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Ground Loop
- Thread starter Norman CYYJ
- Start date
az_gila
Well Known Member
Even a Senator did it...
U.S. Sen. Jim Inhofe and an aide escaped injury Thursday when the
small plane the Oklahoma Republican was flying spun out of control
after landing at Tulsa's Jones Riverside Airport.
"No scrapes or bruises. No nicks or cuts. No injuries at all," said
Danny Finnerty, Inhofe's long-time aide, who was sitting behind the
senator in the two-seat aircraft.
"We walked away from the plane."
Finnerty, reached by telephone, said they landed about 8 p.m. and that
the plane had slowed down to about taxi speed.
"Everything was fine until the tail wheel hit the runway," he said.
"Jim felt like his rudder control was not what it should have been, so
it was mechanical, certainly. As soon as we hit, we fish-tailed and
spun around a couple of times. "
According to the Federal Aviation Administration, the RV-8
single-engine aircraft "ground-looped," or went out of control, upon
landing.
Finnerty said the plane, which he described as an experimental model
rated for aerobatics, suffered significant damage.
U.S. Sen. Jim Inhofe and an aide escaped injury Thursday when the
small plane the Oklahoma Republican was flying spun out of control
after landing at Tulsa's Jones Riverside Airport.
"No scrapes or bruises. No nicks or cuts. No injuries at all," said
Danny Finnerty, Inhofe's long-time aide, who was sitting behind the
senator in the two-seat aircraft.
"We walked away from the plane."
Finnerty, reached by telephone, said they landed about 8 p.m. and that
the plane had slowed down to about taxi speed.
"Everything was fine until the tail wheel hit the runway," he said.
"Jim felt like his rudder control was not what it should have been, so
it was mechanical, certainly. As soon as we hit, we fish-tailed and
spun around a couple of times. "
According to the Federal Aviation Administration, the RV-8
single-engine aircraft "ground-looped," or went out of control, upon
landing.
Finnerty said the plane, which he described as an experimental model
rated for aerobatics, suffered significant damage.
N941WR
Legacy Member
Here's a better question, at what point do you stop thinking about the landing and just do it?
I don't even think about it any more, the landings are no more difficult than landing a nose wheel to me.
People are afraid of airplanes with the little wheel in back and at some point you realize that all the hype is BS and just land the thing. After all, there are a lot of tail wheel pilots that aren't Supermen.
I don't even think about it any more, the landings are no more difficult than landing a nose wheel to me.
People are afraid of airplanes with the little wheel in back and at some point you realize that all the hype is BS and just land the thing. After all, there are a lot of tail wheel pilots that aren't Supermen.
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In reading the forums for the past eight years (or so), I can recall only a few reports of ground loops, to be honest. I know of some that have caused damage, but it rarely is a topic of discussion, so my suspicion is that it is much more rare than in other taildraggers, and is not a major cause of damage.
This was me when I finally took my 8 up. I'd been nervous about going for it with barely 6 hours of tailwheel time. I finally just went. I figured I had 40 gallons of go arounds to get at least one landing right. Turns out I didn't need any of that.
Uh huh. Right. Mechanical, certainly. Suuuuure.
Would this be the same Sen. James Inhofe who landed on a closed runway over the heads of the guys working on it?
wjb
Well Known Member
I'd agree ... I found the most unexpected part of flying a tail dragger is the torque effects when you lift the tail on takeoff. I read all about it, but I was surprised how strong it was the first few times I did it. I zig-zag'ed all over the runway the first few takeoffs. I'm sure Martin, my CFI, was grinning ear to ear. Once you get the hang of it, though, easy-peasy!
Kyle Boatright
Well Known Member
A little google-fu will find the rest of the story. He had gone somewhere and had a tailwheel chain fail. Instead of fixing it, he elected to fly the airplane in that condition. Voila, ground loop.
That's the trouble with politicians these days...entirely one way or the other, and the country winds up going in circles
f1rocket
Well Known Member
I've been close a couple of times in the Rocket. In a few of the early flights, the wheel alignment was way off, I had too much toe-in, and the steering link I had was not adjusted properly. Once the tail wheel hit the ground, I went on a wild ride back and forth.
Once I fixed the gear to be neutral and tightened up the link, it was a pussycat. I've found the RV's to have lots of available rudder quickly, so if you are on your toes, you can salvage less than perfect landings.
Once I fixed the gear to be neutral and tightened up the link, it was a pussycat. I've found the RV's to have lots of available rudder quickly, so if you are on your toes, you can salvage less than perfect landings.
mosquito
Well Known Member
Do Intentional Ground Loops Count?
Shortly after buying my -6, I was explaining the physics behind the ground loop to my wife while slowly taxiing at a nearby non-towered field. I did some gentle S turns, allowing the tailwheel to get ever closer to the 'point of departure' outside the main gears' track. I foolishly had it in my head that I would be able to sense the onset of the groundloop and stop it, once in progress. Boy was I wrong! It broke loose and we instantly spun around about 270 degrees. It happened slightly sooner than I expected and with much greater rotational velocity, considering my slow taxi speed. It was informative, but in hindsight I'm lucky I didn't pull a tire off a wheel, or hit a taxiway light, or worse. At the very least I should have waited for smooth grass.
-jon
Shortly after buying my -6, I was explaining the physics behind the ground loop to my wife while slowly taxiing at a nearby non-towered field. I did some gentle S turns, allowing the tailwheel to get ever closer to the 'point of departure' outside the main gears' track. I foolishly had it in my head that I would be able to sense the onset of the groundloop and stop it, once in progress. Boy was I wrong! It broke loose and we instantly spun around about 270 degrees. It happened slightly sooner than I expected and with much greater rotational velocity, considering my slow taxi speed. It was informative, but in hindsight I'm lucky I didn't pull a tire off a wheel, or hit a taxiway light, or worse. At the very least I should have waited for smooth grass.
-jon
Yep, I know of quite a number of groundloops that never made the reports...including some RVs. I don't think RVs differ much from other tailwheel types when it comes to the ratio of ground loops among the fleet. They are still tailwheel airplanes - easy tailwheel airplanes, but so are lots of other types. RVs really aren't that unique - just good solid nice all-around flying airplanes.
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I never understood all the "RVs will be easier than X" talk. Citabrias are pretty dang easy. So are Cubs. So are RVs. Most tailwheel airplanes are equally "easy" once you adjust to them. And what's meant by "easy"? The ability to re-use the airplane after landing? If that's the criteria, then all tailwheels are equally easy, since I really don't believe or see that RVs get groundlooped at signficantly different rates compared to other types. If "ease" of making nice landings is what's being referred to, then I don't know about RVs...I sure see a whole helluva lot of floaty floaty, long, and pogo stick landings when RVs flock together. It's not a fair comparison to relate your experience as a monkey-footed pilot getting a tailwheel endorsement in a Citabria to the "ease" with which you later handle your RV after getting some time in it.
It's not a fair comparison to relate your experience as a monkey-footed pilot getting a tailwheel endorsement in a Citabria to the "ease" with which you later handle your RV after getting some time in it.That's the trouble with politicians these days...entirely one way or the other, and the country winds up going in circles
longranger
Well Known Member
If you have trouble with a 170, you need to check the landing gear alignment. It's one of the more docile airplanes on the planet, IMHO, but just like any other taildraggers, toe-in will make them a hand full. Now a Stearman on the other hand KNOWS when you aren't paying attention....
Teaching tailwheel ops, you have to let them get close to the "edge" - a lot. Otherwise, they aren't learning to control the plane. And there is a point where you get too close to the edge, and can't get back. Teach enough tailwheel, and you'll see what I mean.
(And yes, that was a sweet -170 that always stayed where I wanted it when I was driving.)
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JonJay
Well Known Member
Very true...and that was the only time I ground looped an airplane, in my old Aeronca. My very high time well known instructor let me get a little too far out on the edge. "Sorry, I thought you had it." No bent metal, just a lot of screeching tire.....
I know of a couple RV ground loops that where not reported. I agree that they are probably on par with other production aircraft....
longranger
Well Known Member
Bryan,
I'm not an instructor but I think I know what you mean. My Dad wasn't an instructor either, but he rode with me in his Stearman long enough for me to figure it out (I was already flying a J-3 and my 170). He wouldn't let me solo until I had let it almost get away from me and recover a few times without his input.
If your original statement was meant to imply that a 170 is more difficult than an RV, then all I have to do when I first fly my -7 is not let that thought go to my head. I do have an hour of dual in an RV-6, and the only trouble I had with it compared to the 170 was its significantly less forward visibility. (Of course, I do plan on transition training as close as possible to first flight).
No, not meant to imply it's much harder to handle. (Is a little, imo, due to several various factors. But still sweet flying). Just a tongue-in-cheek recollection of my first off-rwy excursion.
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Ground Loops
I have an RV8 and have been flying it for approximately 4 years now. I have about 300 hours plus in Tail Draggers. I had a problem several years ago with a series of low speed rollout (runway) half ground loops or severe swerving to the right which could not be arrested when it occurred. The problem happened about 15-20% of the landings. The tail wheel geometry was checked. New tail wheel assembly installed. I also found the nut on the attach for the tail wheel leg stem had come off and the spring/stem was moving slightly. That had no apparent impact on the fix in the end. In talking with a number Air racers at Reno they all suggested from the technical description of the events it might be brakes. I talked to Grove Brakes in San Diego at the request of a Reno Racer/Friend. He had dealt with couple of RV taildragger owners with a similar problem and found it to be traceable to the return spring in the Master Cylinder was aging and not up to the return strength to restore the master cal to the top rest position. I decided to replace the entire brake system since the Grove systems was substantially more effective in stopping power as well as being a double piston type. After installation I have not seen one instance of any issues!
I have an RV8 and have been flying it for approximately 4 years now. I have about 300 hours plus in Tail Draggers. I had a problem several years ago with a series of low speed rollout (runway) half ground loops or severe swerving to the right which could not be arrested when it occurred. The problem happened about 15-20% of the landings. The tail wheel geometry was checked. New tail wheel assembly installed. I also found the nut on the attach for the tail wheel leg stem had come off and the spring/stem was moving slightly. That had no apparent impact on the fix in the end. In talking with a number Air racers at Reno they all suggested from the technical description of the events it might be brakes. I talked to Grove Brakes in San Diego at the request of a Reno Racer/Friend. He had dealt with couple of RV taildragger owners with a similar problem and found it to be traceable to the return spring in the Master Cylinder was aging and not up to the return strength to restore the master cal to the top rest position. I decided to replace the entire brake system since the Grove systems was substantially more effective in stopping power as well as being a double piston type. After installation I have not seen one instance of any issues!
Infidel
Well Known Member
This past December I was getting transition training as well as my tailwheel endorsement in a -6. At the end of the first day, I was doing good with the tailwheel training and my instructor said about another hour the next day with some X-winds, and I'd be good to go.
The next morning we launched from his air park (grass) and upon my first landing at the neighboring asphalt runway I was all over the place. Fortunately, the runway was 100' wide and I was using dang near all of its width. For the life of me I couldn't figure out what was going on, other than it only occurred during full stall 3-pt landings. And he didn't know as he didn't get on the controls. We decided to take a break so I could wipe some sweat off and figure out what was happening.
One of the tail spring clips was tweaked and disconnected from the tailwheel horn. Once repaired and dried out, my landings were back to normal. I'm glad it happened then so in the future, I'll have an idea what to expect should it ever occur again.
The next morning we launched from his air park (grass) and upon my first landing at the neighboring asphalt runway I was all over the place. Fortunately, the runway was 100' wide and I was using dang near all of its width. For the life of me I couldn't figure out what was going on, other than it only occurred during full stall 3-pt landings. And he didn't know as he didn't get on the controls. We decided to take a break so I could wipe some sweat off and figure out what was happening.
One of the tail spring clips was tweaked and disconnected from the tailwheel horn. Once repaired and dried out, my landings were back to normal. I'm glad it happened then so in the future, I'll have an idea what to expect should it ever occur again.
bret
Well Known Member
Everybody got it!
They just ignored it out of respect!
Brilliant! ....am I the only one that got this? taildragger folks are so defensive.
They just ignored it out of respect!
I ground looped my T-18 on a grass strip. The right brake leaked out the fluid, so a ground loop to the left occurred. I messed up the neighbor's gravel taxiway, so I got a rake, and knocked on his door to explain...
"Oh, that's what it was?" said Steve, and back to his TV show.
If you fly off gravel, dirt or grass, tear down your brakes more often (they are easy to service). Dirt packs into the caliper pistons and causes leaks or binding. I've had both. Fortunately, the binding occurred when taxiing out before take off. Although being stuck on the taxiway is embarrassing as well.
"Oh, that's what it was?" said Steve, and back to his TV show.
If you fly off gravel, dirt or grass, tear down your brakes more often (they are easy to service). Dirt packs into the caliper pistons and causes leaks or binding. I've had both. Fortunately, the binding occurred when taxiing out before take off. Although being stuck on the taxiway is embarrassing as well.
David-aviator
Well Known Member
This is a timely thread....
I am a very low time tail dragger pilot (about 75 hours) and flew first time today after a 60 day hiatus. The 8 did not ground but it sure had my attention through 4 landings - and it is a tame beast compared to what some of you have flown.
The only fix for me is to go fly more, lots more and that's what's coming down the rest of the week.
I've got the wheel pants and fairing installed so need to see how fast this thing will go at 8500'. Also reset idle to 600 from 800 and it makes a difference in slowing down, better in that arena than before.
I am a very low time tail dragger pilot (about 75 hours) and flew first time today after a 60 day hiatus. The 8 did not ground but it sure had my attention through 4 landings - and it is a tame beast compared to what some of you have flown.
The only fix for me is to go fly more, lots more and that's what's coming down the rest of the week.
I've got the wheel pants and fairing installed so need to see how fast this thing will go at 8500'. Also reset idle to 600 from 800 and it makes a difference in slowing down, better in that arena than before.
longranger
Well Known Member
I sure hope THATS not true...
It generally happens about the time you begin to think that you are immune.
jetjok
Well Known Member
You got that right, Mel! My PA-20 (original narrow gear) is much quicker than my RV-6. It looks like I may be getting to fly a Stearman, so the Pacer may be supplanted as the "quickest".
So does a Champ! I will never forget the day that the Champ figured out that my attention had turned to the fair young maidens in the outdoor seating area of the airport restaurant! WHEEEE!
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