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How Good are Modern Auto Engines?
- Thread starter rv6ejguy
- Start date
There are a slew of RX8s now in the endurance series and they are fast with really good handling. That sound on the in car is like nothing else! I'm sure Porsche is not too happy. I see rule changes a-coming soon.
Good to see some new stuff up front and Mazda continues to add to its impressive endurance race win record. Good job guys.
Good to see some new stuff up front and Mazda continues to add to its impressive endurance race win record. Good job guys.
acronym dictionary
With Firefox as my browser, I use answers.com 1-click add-on to almost instantly answer these questions. Very handy.
Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
Wonder why
---------d'ya think it has anything to do with big $$$$$ and vested interests????Or, am I just being cynical??
John Clark
Well Known Member
Not cynical, realistic
NASCAR has always amused me. Every year they get further behind. Forget Wankels, they are still stuck with stone-age engines, carburetors, and straight axles. Tried to buy a new car with a four barrel carburetor lately? A major part of their success was the fans being able to "identify" with the cars. Getting tough now that the cars are all the same. By the way, NASCAR attendance is down 30%, some probably due to the economy and some due to boredom.
John Clark
(Old "sporty car" road racer)
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
Wonder why
Or, am I just being cynical??
NASCAR has always amused me. Every year they get further behind. Forget Wankels, they are still stuck with stone-age engines, carburetors, and straight axles. Tried to buy a new car with a four barrel carburetor lately? A major part of their success was the fans being able to "identify" with the cars. Getting tough now that the cars are all the same. By the way, NASCAR attendance is down 30%, some probably due to the economy and some due to boredom.
John Clark
(Old "sporty car" road racer)
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
Can you image the sound of 30+ , 4 rotor Wankels taking the green flag at Daytona? The sound of an unmuffled PP rotary has to be heard er felt to be appreciated. It is above the pain threshold at less than 30 feet.
Pushrod V8s are still being produced at least but not with carbs. NASCAR should probably move into the '60s at least and allow EFI. I am impressed with the hp and revs on a modern NASCAR V8 but hey, you can do wonders with $$$$ and there are some very smart people working on these engines.
The sound of an unmuffled PP rotary has to be heard er felt to be appreciated. It is above the pain threshold at less than 30 feet.Pushrod V8s are still being produced at least but not with carbs. NASCAR should probably move into the '60s at least and allow EFI. I am impressed with the hp and revs on a modern NASCAR V8 but hey, you can do wonders with $$$$ and there are some very smart people working on these engines.
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Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
For non Wankle folks
Periphial Port.
Sortta like putting a really big cam in a piston engine-----sortta.
But, not really.
Periphial Port.
Sortta like putting a really big cam in a piston engine-----sortta.
But, not really.
Jconard
Well Known Member
There would likely be no power increase for the nascar engines by going to fuel injection. It is very easy for the sanctioning body to regulate outputs in those engines for parity as a result of the carb. Pved oval racing inparticular does not require nor is it benefitted by EFI. I guess a "modern for modern's sake" attitude prevails in this forum too.
No one in the stands would care that the cars are more "modern" under the hood. Formula Atlantic cars using the 4AGE engine actually made less horsepower when they went to EFI, but the engines lasted a bit longer and that helped the privateers. There were also some teathing problems with Throttle response.....many years had refined the carb.
Look at how hard it is to monitor and regulate racing with more advanced controls...F1 for example. The cars are supposed relatively equal, and in Nascar not terribly tough to drive....the result is that you can have a field of 40 cars within 110% of the fastest time. There are probably not 40 drivers in the world who can qualify on the same F1 track, in those cars, within 110% of each other. But for the fans (most of them anyway) wat do they want...
Personally I love F1.
No one in the stands would care that the cars are more "modern" under the hood. Formula Atlantic cars using the 4AGE engine actually made less horsepower when they went to EFI, but the engines lasted a bit longer and that helped the privateers. There were also some teathing problems with Throttle response.....many years had refined the carb.
Look at how hard it is to monitor and regulate racing with more advanced controls...F1 for example. The cars are supposed relatively equal, and in Nascar not terribly tough to drive....the result is that you can have a field of 40 cars within 110% of the fastest time. There are probably not 40 drivers in the world who can qualify on the same F1 track, in those cars, within 110% of each other. But for the fans (most of them anyway) wat do they want...
Personally I love F1.
I've built plenty of 4AG engines and owned a turbo one myself. Never had an issue with throttle response and EFI. We supply Specialty Engineering with EFI systems for their all slaughtering GT3 Nissans. The results of the dyno and track sessions were about 15 more hp, better throttle response and a wider powerband than the best tricked out $5000 carbs. All of our road racing EFI equipped engines showed similar gains, with the turbo engines gaining about 1000 more rpm on the bottom end over the best carbed examples.
I'd have to say after 25 years in the race engine business and 15 years building custom EFI, that if you make less power and have worse throttle response with EFI, you are doing something wrong.
We did supply an SDS unit for a FA guy down south who was fed up with the brand X setup the engine came with. He reported the same power but much better driveability. Sometimes $5-$10K systems are not the best.
EFI systems are easy to police as shown in other formulas with air restrictors. Everyone gets the same restrictor. I agree, adding EFI to NASCAR engines would really be of little benefit. The engines run well the way they are and the R&D guys would just eat up more money going down a new path now.
EFI in other forms of racing has pretty well be shown to be superior in all respects. The off road guys are finally seeing the light and dumping carbs now. Our customer in Class 7 has 5 Baja wins and two overall class championships with our EFI. He would never be able to do that with a carb, given the jumps, inclines and G forces they encounter.
I'd have to say after 25 years in the race engine business and 15 years building custom EFI, that if you make less power and have worse throttle response with EFI, you are doing something wrong.
We did supply an SDS unit for a FA guy down south who was fed up with the brand X setup the engine came with. He reported the same power but much better driveability. Sometimes $5-$10K systems are not the best.
EFI systems are easy to police as shown in other formulas with air restrictors. Everyone gets the same restrictor. I agree, adding EFI to NASCAR engines would really be of little benefit. The engines run well the way they are and the R&D guys would just eat up more money going down a new path now.
EFI in other forms of racing has pretty well be shown to be superior in all respects. The off road guys are finally seeing the light and dumping carbs now. Our customer in Class 7 has 5 Baja wins and two overall class championships with our EFI. He would never be able to do that with a carb, given the jumps, inclines and G forces they encounter.
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Jconard
Well Known Member
Ross,
maybe your system is better but I have to say, I much preferred the carb FA cars to the toyota injected ones....but I preferred the cosworths to the toyotas...the point I am making is that full engine management is one thing, but simply adding injection will not magically make more power, nor better drivability, in a race application....can it, yes but the 4AGE carb setup was pretty mature and well sorted by then, and with the rest of the development restrictions on the engine gave as much power. It is documented fact the the injected series engines made less power within that rules package. In all fairness this was in the early 90's...think Jaques Villeneuve the yournger, David Empringham, and Patrick carpentier. (I was a young shiftercart driver picking up club rides as I could.)
maybe your system is better but I have to say, I much preferred the carb FA cars to the toyota injected ones....but I preferred the cosworths to the toyotas...the point I am making is that full engine management is one thing, but simply adding injection will not magically make more power, nor better drivability, in a race application....can it, yes but the 4AGE carb setup was pretty mature and well sorted by then, and with the rest of the development restrictions on the engine gave as much power. It is documented fact the the injected series engines made less power within that rules package. In all fairness this was in the early 90's...think Jaques Villeneuve the yournger, David Empringham, and Patrick carpentier. (I was a young shiftercart driver picking up club rides as I could.)
Interesting V8 Engine/ PSRU in P51 Replica
Cool airplane: http://www.legendaryaircraft.com/index.html
I like the sound of the flyby. They run the complete assembly in on a test stand too. Wonder if they are interested in the RV10 market?
Cool airplane: http://www.legendaryaircraft.com/index.html
I like the sound of the flyby. They run the complete assembly in on a test stand too. Wonder if they are interested in the RV10 market?
