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RV-6 Accident Near Shady Acres Airport, WA (3B8)

Happy to hear both survived with minimal injuries.

What would it take to prevent the aircraft from going over on its back?
Often wondered if adding some means of drag to the rear of the aircraft would prevent overturning.
Example, just before touchdown pull the pin activating a grappling hook with spring loaded unfolding claws, attached with 100 feet of low stretch high performance sailboat line, spring loaded from a 1.5? dia or so PVC tube. A small drone chute near the hook to prevent slingshotting into the rear of the aircraft and also provide drag for a water landing.

Have not thought about a nondestructive means of testing.
 
Sounds like a great way to add a LOT of weight way in the back on the off chance it might be used some day, but only if the pilot remembers to activate it.
 
Happy to hear both survived with minimal injuries.

What would it take to prevent the aircraft from going over on its back?
Often wondered if adding some means of drag to the rear of the aircraft would prevent overturning.
Example, just before touchdown pull the pin activating a grappling hook with spring loaded unfolding claws, attached with 100 feet of low stretch high performance sailboat line, spring loaded from a 1.5? dia or so PVC tube. A small drone chute near the hook to prevent slingshotting into the rear of the aircraft and also provide drag for a water landing.

Have not thought about a nondestructive means of testing.

Words escape me......
 
Happy to hear both survived with minimal injuries.

What would it take to prevent the aircraft from going over on its back?
Often wondered if adding some means of drag to the rear of the aircraft would prevent overturning.
Example, just before touchdown pull the pin activating a grappling hook with spring loaded unfolding claws, attached with 100 feet of low stretch high performance sailboat line, spring loaded from a 1.5? dia or so PVC tube. A small drone chute near the hook to prevent slingshotting into the rear of the aircraft and also provide drag for a water landing.

Have not thought about a nondestructive means of testing.

The track record of RV flip-over crashes, where the pilot flew and controlled the airplane all the way into the flip, has been pretty survivable.

The track record of task-saturated pilots in emergency situations, resulting in stall spins, has been much less favorable.

I'd save the weight, and focus on flying.
 
I've never seen that thingy ma jig the firemen are using to flip the plane back upright. The video stops short. Anyone know how it completes its task?
 
I've never seen that thingy ma jig the firemen are using to flip the plane back upright. The video stops short. Anyone know how it completes its task?

Looks like it's a variation of a cherry picker for removing car engines.
 
I've never seen that thingy ma jig the firemen are using to flip the plane back upright. The video stops short. Anyone know how it completes its task?

They are using stabilizing struts. We typically use them to stabilize a vehicle when we need to extricate a patient with rescue tools "jaws of life".
 
Anyone know how they got out? One of the big question marks in my mind if I have to try someday.
 
I realize that every accident is different, but overall, it seems that on an RV the best rollover mitigation is already there, i.e. the roll bar system.

This past summer, my friend flipped his RV6 on landing. He's gone public with this and has owned the fact that he must have landed with his feet on the brakes.

We were sitting in lawn chairs in the hangar on the other end of the 2500' grass strip watching him land and by the time we had hopped on a 4 wheeler and got up there, he had already kicked or punched his way through the broken canopy and was outside. I estimate that it took him less than 90 seconds to get out, even though a couple of minutes before that he had no clue that he was about to crash. He was by himself, maybe if there was another person in there getting out would have been harder, maybe not.

The roll bar deformed a little, but he's about 6' or so and didn't hit his head on anything. His only injuries were scraped shins from them hitting the underside of the panel and a few cuts and scrapes that he thinks he got from the plexiglass where he squirmed out. Nothing a few band aides couldn't fix.

I think that the RV is so short coupled that you're never going to be able to design out the potential for it to flip over, but seeing in person how well his held up put to rest any concerns I had about that particular characteristic.

I will say that I don't know how well I would have done in the same situation. I crawled back into the airplane to shut off the fuel and electrical, retrieve his glasses etc. and it was incredibly disorienting to have everything upside down.
 
Getting out

?Anyone know how they got out? One of the big question marks in my mind if I have to try someday.?

I went to see a RV7A after it had crashed. The pilot was alone and was able to wiggle out from under the plane but there was very little room. Can?t imagine how tough it would be if there were two soles on board.
 
Yep, pretty much confirming my fears. I've never really been worried about the tip-over crushing the cockpit, but being unable to punch through the canopy and slither out is a whole different concern. I'm 6'3", so I may have more difficulty than some smaller-framed pilots.
 
Yep, pretty much confirming my fears. I've never really been worried about the tip-over crushing the cockpit, but being unable to punch through the canopy and slither out is a whole different concern. I'm 6'3", so I may have more difficulty than some smaller-framed pilots.

I agree with you, I have an RV6 and I'm 6'1". I have always thought that there would be enough room to crawl out as long as I can get the canopy out of the way.
 
I realize that every accident is different, but overall, it seems that on an RV the best rollover mitigation is already there, i.e. the roll bar system.

This past summer, my friend flipped his RV6 on landing. He's gone public with this and has owned the fact that he must have landed with his feet on the brakes.

We were sitting in lawn chairs in the hangar on the other end of the 2500' grass strip watching him land and by the time we had hopped on a 4 wheeler and got up there, he had already kicked or punched his way through the broken canopy and was outside. I estimate that it took him less than 90 seconds to get out, even though a couple of minutes before that he had no clue that he was about to crash. He was by himself, maybe if there was another person in there getting out would have been harder, maybe not.

The roll bar deformed a little, but he's about 6' or so and didn't hit his head on anything. His only injuries were scraped shins from them hitting the underside of the panel and a few cuts and scrapes that he thinks he got from the plexiglass where he squirmed out. Nothing a few band aides couldn't fix.

I think that the RV is so short coupled that you're never going to be able to design out the potential for it to flip over, but seeing in person how well his held up put to rest any concerns I had about that particular characteristic.

I will say that I don't know how well I would have done in the same situation. I crawled back into the airplane to shut off the fuel and electrical, retrieve his glasses etc. and it was incredibly disorienting to have everything upside down.

Tip-up or Slider?

I ask because the rollbars are in different locations and and made of different material.
 
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Let me tell you guys a story I read a few years ago, right here on VAF. Some RV 6 driver flipped over, up somewhere in New England. Turns out he was fine, but where he flipped over was in a marshy area---water seeped in, and the pour guy drowned. The person writing the post here had gotten a small hackzall (or however you spell it)--to cut your way out. I since, have gotten a small Milwaukee Hackzall, and velcroed it in my plane. I was able to cut a solid steel ruler in half, (at HD) in about 90 seconds. So I'm "hoping" it would cut out the side of an RV like butter. People have said to me, "sparks" and spilled fuel. I'd rather take my chances with that, than maybe being trapped, upside down, forever.:(

I'd post a picture of it, but unfortunately, I'm picture challenged here on VAF.
 
My concern is being upside-down in soft earth with reduced clearance between longerons and the ground......

Agreed. And even less time in a ditching.

I followed that one thread a while back where the guy ditched along the shoreline and flipped. Lot's of different opinions in the thread but I still have questions in my mind about being upside down underwater.
 
Tip-up

it was a slider

Images 2 & 5 from the Komonews link clearly show a Tip-up.

The aviation-net link shows info on N615RJ, also a Tip-up.

After flipping, I think the Slider provides more clearance to get out. Draw a straight-line from the tip of the VS to the top of the roll bar to compare. You will probably need a safety hammer, in any case.

Best regards,

Merrill
 
Images 2 & 5 from the Komonews link clearly show a Tip-up.

The aviation-net link shows info on N615RJ, also a Tip-up.

After flipping, I think the Slider provides more clearance to get out. Draw a straight-line from the tip of the VS to the top of the roll bar to compare. You will probably need a safety hammer, in any case.

Best regards,

Merrill

I was responding to a question a few posts up from mine. it involved an rv6 my friend flipped last summer.
 
.... You will probably need a safety hammer, in any case....

That's the main reason why I don't bolt in the passenger stick. Only thing holding it in is the PTT cable, which is easy enough to rip out the connector at the base of the stick if I'm in a real hurry.

Between the steel tube and the hardwood grip, ought to be enough to bash through the plexi.

Another good tool could be the bottom of the fire extinguisher, which in my -6 is between the seats and easy to reach while belted in.
 
hgerhardt:
Removing the passenger stick is a good idea. You have a grip, a sharp end and mass to destroy the canopy.
In the last kitplanes-issue (Nov. 2019) is a good report about quick release system of the passenger stick. I will rebuilt this stick in next time.
 
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excellent thought

That's the main reason why I don't bolt in the passenger stick. Only thing holding it in is the PTT cable, which is easy enough to rip out the connector at the base of the stick if I'm in a real hurry.

Between the steel tube and the hardwood grip, ought to be enough to bash through the plexi.

Another good tool could be the bottom of the fire extinguisher, which in my -6 is between the seats and easy to reach while belted in.


My passenger stick in usually out anyway (stored safely in my tool bag in baggage). I'll have to investigate a mini quick-fist or clips to make it more accessible.
 
My passenger stick in usually out anyway (stored safely in my tool bag in baggage). I'll have to investigate a mini quick-fist or clips to make it more accessible.

Mine is secured between the passenger seat and sidewall with a couple of broom clips.
 
My passenger stick in usually out anyway (stored safely in my tool bag in baggage). I'll have to investigate a mini quick-fist or clips to make it more accessible.

Mine is attached between the passenger seat and sidewall with a couple of broom clips. The use of the stick for canopy breakage is part of the passenger pre-takeoff safety briefing.
 
My passenger stick is on the back of the passenger seat on the top of the seat backrest adjuster flap, held with a couple of bike pump clamps. Out of the way but easy to access.
Figs
 
My passenger stick is stored remotely in a cabinet in my hangar. I don’t see need to install during flight.
I carry a safety hammer stored between the seat that is perfect for its intended job of breaking the plexiglass.
 
Out of curiosity... Do you see a need to *remove* it for flight?

Yes, as I feel it can be an interference when I carry a passenger. I only put it in if the passenger is a pilot and I plan on him/her taking a turn flying.
 
When I started flying my 9A I had seen some post of how to get out of
overturned RV. Some had bowie knives, small axes, screw drivers etc.
Swinging anything inside a cockpit, especially with someone else inside,
was out of the question. Punching seemed a much better option.
I have a friend with a machine shop make me this out of 1" cold rolled
steel. You hold it with the 4" shaft between middle and ring finger so
you can "just punch" the canopy. The slot is or breaking big pieces
after you crack it. We went with blade instead of point on punch as the
blade made a long crack, point mostly just a hole.


IMG_0498-M.jpg
 
I carry a tactical axe. It should make short work of a canopy, and if I?m in the middle of nowhere, I can cut fire wood or possibly get a couple good licks on the bear that kills me! That?ll teach him to go around eating aviators.
 
cockpit escape - upside down

Great ideas in this thread - seems strange that since there is a risk of this happening that we have not yet converged on the "best" way to get out.

Probably not practical, but I think if I were upside down in a field, with someone I love in the back seat, I'd want all the power possible to get out, something like this "sawzall" (Bosch 12-Volt Max Pocket Reciprocating Saw Kit PS60-102):

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BD5G3SY/ref=psdc_552950_t2_B01HD4EGEG

71zHKhNOFaL._AC_SL1500_.jpg


I'll probably just go with a massive knife with hand/knuckle protection:

https://www.grindworx.com/item--Wartech-Knuckle-Knife-Black-Fixed--27809

Wartech-Knuckle-Black-Tanto-Black-Serr-H-5044BK-T-BP-27809-jr-bottlecap.jpg


or perhaps this:

80ntp.jpg
 
Those escape tools and spring loaded punches all work great on automotive safety glass. That glass will shatter with a sharp blow to keep it from splintering. But, I really have some doubts those types of tools would be as effective on an aircraft canopy.

In a tight cockpit, with no room to swing a tool. I think it'd be really tough to bust your way out, especially in a tandem seat configuration.

I'd love to come up with a spring powered bolt gun that is strong enough to punch through the canopy, and still easily cocked. Maybe something worked along the lines of the old pencil flare gun, with a bolt that could be pulled back by hand. That way, you could poke a couple of holes in the canopy and maybe get some cracks to propagate far enough to weaken the structure so you could push it out.

Has anybody seen anything like that?

--------------Added----------------------------

Just found this. Ordered it and hoping to do some tests with it later. Weight is <15oz.

https://www.bunnyrancher.com/store/p42/The_Ballista_-_Penetrating_Bolt_Gun_.html
 
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When VFR It?s good to plan routes for best chance to be seen sooner than later when going cross country. Then the question is, the road or the field?
 
See posts 19 and 39. I still like this saws all, because it may well be more the the canopy one is trying to cut out of. I'm thinking--canopy mired in mud, only thing left, is out the side of the fuselage.
 
sparks?

See posts 19 and 39. I still like this saws all, because it may well be more the the canopy one is trying to cut out of. I'm thinking--canopy mired in mud, only thing left, is out the side of the fuselage.
I agree - only concern is that if there is leaking fuel, would the motor in the electric sawsall generate sparks?
 
Sawzall

Yeah, Also--see post19 (Are you in Switzerland??)
When you put it like that, I think you are right - I'll keep my eye out for a good product like that. Just for the piece of mind. I can see scenarios where it might come in handy. Some newer battery charged devices can even be charged with a USB cable, which of course is very convenient in an aircraft. (Yes, I'm in Switzerland - beautiful place!)
 
Those escape tools and spring loaded punches all work great on automotive safety glass. [Snip]

In a tight cockpit, with no room to swing a tool. I think it'd be really tough to bust your way out, especially in a tandem seat configuration.

I'd love to come up with a spring powered bolt gun that is strong enough to punch through the canopy, and still easily cocked.

Has anybody seen anything like that?

-------------------------Added----------------------------

Just found this. Ordered it and hoping to do some tests with it later. Weight is <15oz.

https://www.bunnyrancher.com/store/p42/The_Ballista_-_Penetrating_Bolt_Gun_.html

Thought same thing. I agree with you. A super sized center punch on steroids is ideal. Great find. Kind of icky primary use. Reminds me of movie "No Country for Old Men". Let me know how it works... I'd add a pliers, like angle head channel locks. Once you get hole started, the pliers work well to break the edge to make bigger hole to crawl through.
 
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