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25 Hours of Night Logged in 2.6 Hours ...

DeltaRomeo

doug reeves: unfluencer
Staff member
[ed. I had this on the front page in the 3/9/21 edition (#5,294), but I know some folks just come straight to the forums, so am duplicating here. v/r,dr]

I had 31.6 hours of night hours (and 20+ night TO and LNDGs) in the RV before doing these two flights. Still trying to get a a solid answer on how many, if any, of the 330+ hours I have in the level D sim (in night conditions) count. Three people in a room will get you three different answers <g>.

Back to these two flights...

Per 61.159 (b), if you're building night hours toward the 100 needed for the ATP, you can log 25 night hours doing stop and gos. So, on 2/24 and 3/7 of this year I racked up 25 on two flights over the course of 2.6 hours.

(the reg in question):
"(b) A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hour of night flight time to satisfy the requirements of paragraph (a)(2) of this section; however, not more than 25 hours of night flight time may be credited in this manner."​

The story in pictures HERE, with a word here and there.

VAFDR_80%20Mar.%2008%2014.25.jpg


IMG_2960_HEIC-L.jpg

Full site (2,500 pixels) of this pic: https://photos.smugmug.com/Fly-outs.../i-g8c8bS6/0/728978f3/X5/IMG_2960_HEIC-X5.jpg

IMG_2966_HEIC-L.jpg

 
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Interesting

I'd love to hear how this isn't falsifying a log book.

Logging 25 hours by flying only 2.6 hours of flight time? Gonna have to explain that loop hole to us who log each hour the old fashioned way.
 
I'd love to hear how this isn't falsifying a log book.

Logging 25 hours by flying only 2.6 hours of flight time? Gonna have to explain that loop hole to us who log each hour the old fashioned way.

Per 61.159(b): "A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hour of night flight time to satisfy the requirements of paragraph (a)(2) of this section; however, not more than 25 hours of night flight time may be credited in this manner."
 
Hang on a second. The regulation says:

A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hour of night flight time...

So first of all, you only get to count the ones *after* the 20th one (not all of them including nos. 1-20) as a substitute for 1 hour of the flight time requirement, AND it says you can substitute those additional landings against the requirement in 61.195(A)(2), NOT that you can LOG those landings as actual time.

I'm no lawyer, much less an aviation lawyer, but I'm pretty sure you can't LOG those hours.
 
... and every thirty days my skipper got a "night trap" to stay current, under a "Commander's moon"

Careful out there now
 
You don't actually log 25 hours, you log the night landings. Then when it comes time to take the ATP checkride, you count the landings towards the hour requirement. It's not a loop hole and every examiner is aware of it. He isn't doing anything wrong.
 
You don't actually log 25 hours, you log the night landings. Then when it comes time to take the ATP checkride, you count the landings towards the hour requirement. It's not a loop hole and every examiner is aware of it. He isn't doing anything wrong.

Are you sure about what he's doing?

I just logged the regular 1.2 hour flight on 3/7/21 in the appropriate columns, but put 14 in the night column (with a note out to the side that it went toward 61.159(b)'s 100.
(from the other thread)

That looks to me like he's *logging* 14 hours of night flight.
 
Are you sure about what he's doing?

(from the other thread)

That looks to me like he's *logging* 14 hours of night flight.

This is the concern. The title of article/thread implies he is logging the hours in his book, which is not legal.
 
This is the concern. The title of article/thread implies he is logging the hours in his book, which is not legal.

[ed. Gang,

It's just a note in my logbook so I remember that 25 hours of the time was done on these two dates towards the ATP 100. I had to put it somewhere and this is what some of the examiners I know suggested. There's an asterisk and some words about 61.159(b) to the side. Coulda been on a sticky on the inside cover I guess.

The examiners know about it and said just to put a note in. No fake moon landing or nefarious intent here...(but it IS the internet so.....).

Off to the sim for my 337th hour of night level D seat support - time that I can't log <rolls eyes>. v/r,dr]
 
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This is the concern. The title of article/thread implies he is logging the hours in his book, which is not legal.

Yep...the OP writes:

Per 61.159 (b), if you're building night hours toward the 100 needed for the ATP, you can log 25 night hours doing stop and gos.

and as noted above, he logged 14 hours in the Night category. However, the regulation in question relates to

a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate

and says only that said person

may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hour of night flight time to satisfy the requirements of paragraph (a)(2)

and further

not more than 25 hours of night flight time may be credited in this manner.

Doesn't sound like *logging* an hour of flight time is legal to me, either, and that the intent is to use these "credits" on the *application*, not in the logbook.
 
If this is todays hot topic, I'll throw my opinion in here;

Seems to me that logbook fraud, as we're thinking of it here, would be pencil whipping some hours to meet the minimum qualifications for a certificate or rating, or maybe currency.

Thats not what's happening here. It's likely not the way I would have done it butI don't really see that it's a big deal.

As far as I know, there's no requirement that you even keep a logbook, other than to document minimum requirements for a certificate or rating. (obviously there's insurance benefits etc.) As long as there's a means to make the books balance to that minimum standard, I suspect you could put in a column for space shuttle touch and gos and be within the letter of the law.

If I'm wrong, someone please educate me, I love learning new stuff without having to look it up :)
 
Actually

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.

(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.
 
wasn't sure if you were replying to me or not :)

The chief pilot where I learned to fly was also a pilot examiner and area safety rep. He stopped keeping a logbook years before I came on the scene. I later flew some corporate trips with him and asked him about it one time. He said why bother. If anybody ever asked, he could document currency with fuel receipts and check ride records that he maintained.

IIRC, he told me that he stopped logging time when he decided that he was never going to look for another flying job.
 
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