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My Hookers have got to go

shamer

Well Known Member
I think I want some Crows with kam-locks. The question for those with Crows is whether its easier to pull up to tighten the lap belts or down. My Hookers use the pull up adjusters and have never been easy to adjust.
I would appreciate any advice anyone may have.

Thanks,
 
Steve, I have the crows and like them. They are pull down shoulder adjustment and work well. To loosen you have to lift the buckle but that is how it should be.

I miss Idaho. I was at KEUL until I moved to Michigan.
 
I think I want some Crows with kam-locks. The question for those with Crows is whether its easier to pull up to tighten the lap belts or down. My Hookers use the pull up adjusters and have never been easy to adjust.
I would appreciate any advice anyone may have.

Thanks,

Steve to make Hookers adjust easier remove those squarish hookup springs at the adjusting points.
 
Rocky,

We met once. My hangar is in front of Chucks. Which way do your lap belts pull to adjust?
Congrats on the new license!
 
Steve to make Hookers adjust easier remove those squarish hookup springs at the adjusting points.

Thanks Vlad, I’ll look in to that for when I pass them on. It’s really about wanting the Kam-locks.
 
I just made the upgrade in my RV4. I did not get the optional pull down adjusters and do not regret my decision. How often are you going to adjust the belts after they are set? Another observation is the Crow belts are not as robust as the Hookers, in particular the hardware is lighter and the straps are much thinner. I am sure they are much stronger than the structure they are attached to however. The bright side is I saved 2 of 3 pounds of weight!
 
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I pull up on the lap belts (5 point) to tighten. But once set I don’t adjust at all, for many flites. They stay relatively tight keeping my butt in the seat.
The shoulder belts I pull down on the ends to tighten. I do this every flite after runup and prior to entering the runway. I may adjust these several times during the flite due to turbulence. When I shut down, I lift each shoulder buckle and it loosens the straps making it ez move around and to get out. And readies them for ez wearing for start of next flite.
 
Pull up

Because I’m pretty much sitting on the floor of the RV4, At the pull up on the lap belt works best and I do like the camlock. Like the others see the adjustment to tighten the shoulder belt is to pull down which is intuitive.
 
How often are you going to adjust the belts after they are set?

This part of the country, the layers of clothing that we wear to fly can vary day by day, even hour by hour, let alone season by season. I adjust my Crow harness a lot.

I'd go with the Crows for the Kam Locs alone
 
My friend and I both have Crow harness. I actually order his set but when they arrived his cam locks were different than mine. His appear to be a bit bulkier. I much prefer mine over his. My 14 first flew in 2016 and his first flight was 2021. I don’t know if there are two models available or if his are a newer model but like I said I like mine much better. I find them easier to latch up. Once installed the new ones are OK. My friend is getting use to them now after 11 months of use.
 
Out Harness

Crow harnesses in our RV-6. Pull up on the lap belts, down on the shoulder harnesses, crotch belt is mot adjustable. I don’t like the pull up lap belts. I have to tug and wiggle to get them tight. Another problem is that when you let the belts go slack all the way, the doubled up bit of webbing at the ends get stuck in the buckles and there’s NO chance of pulling them tight unless you pull the buckles back. Just a quirk, but first time users (Young Eagles) need a lot of extra help getting the belts tight. Awkward. All that said, the belt release mechanism is excellent.
 
Kam-Loc Crow 5 point harness
Pull-up lap belts, easy to tighthen while pushing butt down and into the backrest. Once done, no need to re-adjust.

Pull-down shoulder, easy to tighthen or to slacken depending on various factors, take-off, landing, turbulance, cruise, etc...

The release is very easy and done after I slack all 4 belts.

One peave, if a belt is all the way slack, I have to lift its release tab for it to move initially, then it's ok.
 
Rocky,

We met once. My hangar is in front of Chucks. Which way do your lap belts pull to adjust?
Congrats on the new license!

They pull to the center so it is easy. Thanks for the reminder about meeting. I forgot! Say hi to the gang. I really miss being there.
 
Crow is local to me.. I was able to check out their showroom. I chose the cam lock, pull up lap, pull down shoulder, sewn in shoulder pads. I went with the steel shoulder adjusters, as the aluminum ones seem a little too bulky. Very happy with them.

Two things I wish were different.. the cam release can stay when released, I wish it didn’t do that, and that it auto centered. The other thing I would like would be a release button for just the shoulder straps like the airlines have.

Other than that, I’m still very happy with it..these changes would make an awesome product even more awesomer!
 
Harness..........

Love my Hookers! Just had to stick up for them!;)

I have the pull up belt and pull down harnesses. Pull down belt seems like there is a lot in the way to be doing that well. I have the 'old' latch and link but that is what I am used to. Never had them come undone inadvertently. Like 'em!

I have the pads for both the harnesses and belt. The crotch strap is adjustable as well. Can't imagine a set that isn't. Snug those suckers DOWN! Especially when flying through Wyoming........:rolleyes:
 
To the OP if adjustment is your main complaint, Hooker will add adjustment straps on your harness (if that is what you need, sorry if I am not understanding). Personally I adjust my Hookers once and leave them alone. I am not constantly adjusting them. If I want to take the shoulder harness off during long cruise, I can just unlatch them.

Love my Hookers! Just had to stick up for them!;)

I have the pull up belt and pull down harnesses. Pull down belt seems like there is a lot in the way to be doing that well. I have the 'old' latch and link but that is what I am used to. Never had them come undone inadvertently. Like 'em! I have the pads for both the harnesses and belt. The crotch strap is adjustable as well. Can't imagine a set that isn't. Snug those suckers DOWN! Especially when flying through Wyoming........:rolleyes:
Plus +1. Sounds like I have same Hooker setup as you. As far as adjustment, once adjusted I don't touch them.

I get the attraction of camlock (rotary buckle). BTW Crow has throw over latch like the hooker as well. However as another posters said: "Crow belts are not as robust as the Hookers, in particular the hardware is lighter and the straps are much thinner." I like the Hooker throw over latch which is MIL SPEC real deal, heavy duty. It's very solid, easy to actuate to release (but not too easy). Yes you have to thread 3 belts (two shoulder and 1 lap) onto the base lap belt with loop hardware. However with camlock type you have to find the same 3 belts and plug them in. However you can plug them in any order. With the throw over you have to thread on the shoulder belts first, then other half of lap.

As far as bailing out and releasing the buckle, I like the throw over latch. A camlock turning the rotary release is a little (not much more but) awkward. Others mention the cam lock can stick. Last the cam lock has a bunch of watch works inside. I am sure it will last, but the MIL SPEC latch is beefy, dirt simple, there it is, stronger than it needs to be. For Acro and negative G's I only trust the Mil Spec Latch. not that I would not trust a Cam Lock, just like the KISS method. I have heard on one case of cam lock failing. Rare I am sure. But the throw over latch is like hammer simple, has a job and does it. Can you catch the lever on the throw over? Yes but it is in detent. If you are worried you can Velcro over it, but that would degrade the emergency quick release operation.
 
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To the OP i However as another posters said: "Crow belts are not as robust as the Hookers, in particular the hardware is lighter and the straps are much thinner."
I have absolutely no doubt that in a crash, deceleration forces sufficient to cause the either brand’s harness system to fail will kill the occupant first. The weak spot is going to be either the point where the harness is secured to the airplane, or the fragility of the human that is being restrained. I’d be far more inclined to pick my restraints on far more subjective criteria…comfort and convenience.
 
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+1 for the Hookers :) Aside from being an endless source of humor for my male passengers, they've been extremely comfortable and show almost no wear after 10 years. I have the pull down to tighten option on the shoulder harnesses, and the pull up to tighten option on the lap belts (and of course the crotch strap is adjustable). Granted, the lap belts can be somewhat resistant to adjustment, but I think pulling UP to snug them is way better than trying to fiddle around and twist sideways and whatnot to do that.

How often are you going to adjust the belts after they are set?

Some of you must not fly with passengers much, if at all. I generally have to adjust, or help adjust, the belts and harness *every time* I take a passenger. Especially going from one of my lard-butt buddies to some little slip of a girl, or vice-versa. And they need to be able to adjust them themselves, so I think harness-down and belt-up is the easiest for non-pilots to work.
 
Hookers.....the restraint system, that is.....

:D
I have the pull down to tighten option on the shoulder harnesses, and the pull up to tighten option on the lap belts (and of course the crotch strap is adjustable). Granted, the lap belts can be somewhat resistant to adjustment, but I think pulling UP to snug them is way better than trying to fiddle around and twist sideways and whatnot to do that.

Agreed. Mine look like they came out of the box yesterday....except for the elastic ring that holds the loose belt from the hardware in place.

I generally have to adjust, or help adjust, the belts and harness *every time* I take a passenger. Especially going from one of my lard-butt buddies to some little slip of a girl, or vice-versa. And they need to be able to adjust them themselves, so I think harness-down and belt-up is the easiest for non-pilots to work.

I find that passengers will want to adjust the harness but don't do much with the belt itself once they are snugged into place. I will give instructions for tightening/loosening the harness but really don't mention the belt.....except the "escape" briefing: "need to release them in a hurry? Pull up on this lever!"
 
:D
I find that passengers will want to adjust the harness but don't do much with the belt itself once they are snugged into place.

Yep, exactly. But *I* have to adjust the belts pretty much with every passenger, and the pull up style is, I think, better. I can lengthen them prior to the passenger getting in, and then simply pull both sides up to "snug them down" without having to reach way down or way over the passenger to tighten them.

Same with the harness, and the pull down style is more natural for them to learn to adjust which, as you said, is what they do (and they don't adjust the lap belts, in nearly all cases).

Only the crotch strap adjustment becomes an issue :) from the standpoint of reaching between the passenger's legs. LOL! I just tell 'em up front, not getting fresh, just have to make sure they're strapped in safely! Never had any complaints :)
 
But the throw over latch is like hammer simple, has a job and does it. Can you catch the lever on the throw over? Yes but it is in detent. If you are worried you can Velcro over it, but that would degrade the emergency quick release operation.

My Crow belts came with velcro on the underside of the red fabric tab connected to the latch, and velcro on the top of the seatbelt under the red fabric tab. This minimizes the chance of inadvertently snagging and opening the latch release handle.

If you don't want it velcroed down, you can place the seatbelt pull strap under the red fabric tab. The red fabric tab itself reduces the chance of inadvertently snagging and opening the latch release handle, whether it's velcroed down or not.

i-PZwf2D8-M.jpg
 
My Crow belts came with velcro on the underside of the red fabric tab connected to the latch, and velcro on the top of the seatbelt under the red fabric tab. This minimizes the chance of inadvertently snagging and opening the latch release handle.

If you don't want it velcroed down, you can place the seatbelt pull strap under the red fabric tab. The red fabric tab itself reduces the chance of inadvertently snagging and opening the latch release handle, whether it's velcroed down or not.

i-PZwf2D8-M.jpg
True. I knew that Crow did that with velcro. I don't feel the need on the Hookers. The detent on the Hooker belt latch is so positive it takes a serious tug to unkatch. The hardware between the two brands are different. Nice Pics! Thank you for sharing.
 
I have absolutely no doubt that in a crash, deceleration forces sufficient to cause the either brand’s harness system to fail will kill the occupant first. The weak spot is going to be either the point where the harness is secured to the airplane, or the fragility of the human that is being restrained. I’d be far more inclined to pick my restraints on far more subjective criteria…comfort and convenience.
Well aren't you the party pooper. Ha ha. I'm just kidding. Very good point. I'm a structure stress kind of guy; we can analyze how much load those attachments can take. However to your point the seat belts themselves are not likely to fail under crash loads, but the airplane around you and what belts are attached to may fail. I'll stop there, because we'll go down a wormhole of what is survivable, G load vectors , vertical, fwd/aft, magnitude. Aircraft small and large, seats and attachments can and do fail. They are designed for 9 G's, static*. However it does not accout for structural deformation, etc. A stall spin produces extream vertical loads. Belts don't help. The new state of the art in commercial Aviation crash-worthiness and survivability are energy absorbing seats.
 
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Well aren't you the party pooper. Ha ha. I'm just kidding. Very good point. I'm a structure stress kind of guy; we can analyze how much load those attachments can take. However to your point the seat belts themselves are not likely to fail under crash loads, but the airplane around you and what belts are attached to may fail. I'll stop there, because we'll go down a wormhole of what is survivable, G load vectors , vertical, fwd/aft, magnitude. Aircraft small and large, seats and attachments can and do fail. They are designed for 9 G's, static*. However it does not accout for structural deformation, etc. A stall spin produces extream vertical loads. Belts don't help. The new state of the art in commercial Aviation crash-worthiness and survivability are energy absorbing seats.

Yes, thanks. A lot of engineering effort goes into automobiles to crumple in such a way that it will mitigate a lot of the deceleration forces, spread them out over a greater period of time. The design of airplanes, and the need that they be light, makes that a much less practical exercise for them. Besides, we’re talking about dissipating oodles more potential energy in a plane crash.

Automobile seatbelts are designed primarily to keep the driver and occupants inside the vehicle, not so much to dissipate energy (which is what airbags are supposed to do). In airplanes, IMHO, restraint belts are designed to keep you from flying around the cockpit during violent air maneuvers and losing control of the airplane, or flying around the cockpit in lower-energy sudden stops. I don’t think it’s worthwhile to worry about failure of a quality restraint system in accomplishing its primary mission…keep you upright in your seat during high or low-energy maneuvering or low-energy crashes. Probably much more practical to choose your restraint system based on subjective things like color, comfort, and convenience of the buckles.

Disclaimer: I’m not an engineer, but I’ve attended many, many people who’ve been the victims of “sudden deceleration”. Mostly automobiles, but a few airplane crashes over the years. I likely have a more jaded view of the futility of relying on restraint systems as a means of keeping the occupants safe from deceleration in a crash.
 
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Hookers vs Crows

Thanks to all of you for your insight on the pros and cons of the various harness options. I appreciate it.
 
I didn't realize folks attribute moving to Crowe to get Kam Locks. My Hookers were ordered with and delivered with cam lock rotary buckles. I can't see any difference between the Crowe and Hooker cam locks. In my RV-8 I like to leave my lap belt with the cam lock hooked up to the same-side shoulder belt when parked to tidy up the foot well for the back seater and also make it easier and faster to buckle in. My Hooker cam locks do the same as mentioned above and if rotated too far and over-center from normal position and have to be reset to engage the buckles again. No biggie.

American Safety and BAS inc also offer cam lock rotary buckles for type certificated aircraft. My Husky has the AS air bag belt STC and my Cessna 180 project is going with BAS with rotary locks with shoulder strap quick release like airlines. On my Husky I like to keep the left shoulder strap connected to the lap belt when parked similar to the RV-8. Then I hook the shoulder strap to the throttle which not only places the harness in a great location to strap in it also confirms and secures the throttle at idle cutoff.
 
I bought my airplane with Crows already installed. Pull-ups on the sides. They used the rotary KamLocks and by that time were about 11 years old. I found the lock difficult and a bit inconvenient to use. The belts were hard to insert, and I had to give the knob a pretty good twist to release. The knob is smooth with some ridges so it had to be gripped pretty hard. I kept thinking that if I ever needed to release it urgently, there was a fair chance my hand would be slippery with blood.

I called Crow. They were very nice and gave me a lot of advice about cleaning with a solvent and air compressor. They strongly advised against disassembly because of intricacy (flying springs etc). I could not improve them to my satisfaction so I persuaded them to just sell me the lever Kam Locks themselves. Those are great and solved my problems. I do note, however, that the levers do stay open if you move the lever all the way to either side (as noted by a previous poster here). That is mildly annoying, but far from a deal-breaker.
 

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My Hooker cam locks do the same as mentioned above and if rotated too far and over-center from normal position and have to be reset to engage the buckles again.

Yes, that's how they're designed...so that you don't have to hold the camlock in the open position to ensure that all the belts unlatch. Rotate to the "detent" (either direction) and all the belts sans the one attached to the camlock itself disengage, leaving your hand free to do other things.
 
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