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Trip to EFII

Bluelabel

Bluelabel

Well Known Member
So, since I live in San Diego, and Robert's EFII Electronic Injection and Electronic Fuel Injection System Company is just up in Upland, I decided to take advantage of a free day in my schedule and shoot up there to see his stuff first hand.
I had pretty much made up my mind on his Ignition System but wanted to know more, see the parts first hand, and discuses the schematic of my electrical system design. I have made up my mind 1000% I won't be putting Mags in my plane. Not in 2014!!! (I've heard all the opinions, so leave this one ALONE!). I'm just posting this so others who aren't close enough to pop in can learn a little about EFII.
The other item I checked out and learned about is his Electronic Fuel Injection. Very nice... No mixture lever! Lessens the workload and is a huge bonus. Your engine gets the optimum amount of fuel to perform in all cases. Plus the 2 systems are meant to work in harmony as the same ECU runs both Fuel and Ignition. (Hey, what do you know, just like the cars we've been driving reliably for 40 years!!!)
Suffice it to say, the parts are extremely well made, high quality and VERY robust. Both systems really are quite simple. Once you see how it all goes together it makes complete sense (I can see the Matrix now!!) When it comes to ignition systems, Robert comes from a background of over 20 years making high performance Ignition systems for the motorcycle industry. Form Harley to NHRA Drag bikes. So, these are made to perform, and last. As he put it " It's really very simple, I don't know why no one else can get an Electronic Ignition system right".

So, I rented a Cherokee from my Club here at KMYF, hopped over LA with Socal's help, dropped in steep on the north side of ONT to Cable Airport. KCCB. Timing worked out as they were practicing and setting up for the Cable Airshow on Friday, so I got a bit of a free one out of it. Robert met me out at the taxi way and escorted me to the hangar. They've got a nice little facility with all their own machining equipment in house.

Getting an Escort to the hangar
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Throttle Body with position Sensor
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Fuel Pressure Regulator
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Ignition Coil Pack
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Timing Sensor On Roberts IO-360
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Their Fuel Injector Assembly
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The Bus Manager.. This Thing is awesome.. Essentially Bob Knuckols Electrical design in a box
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Robert and I next to his soon to be flying again 7 and IO-360
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Nice Evening to be flying back down the coast of Socal
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EFII cont'

Lyla,
Who builds the wiring harnesses and basically runs the shipping Dept.
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Couple More Shots of some of the planes there for the show and a shot of climbing out over ONT...
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EFII

I am building an RV-10 in Waller and I am also using the EFII system. I am still about one year away from first engine start and I am looking for anybody else using this system and their experiences.
 
Is there anyone here that has actual experience with these systems? I'm considering a change too. I have one MAG (off for the 500 hr service), and one Plasma III, which works very well. Considering going with a dual EI now, and planning on changing from my carb to fuel injection at some time too. The LSE ignition has been working well on homebuilts for a long time. Robert says in his online literature that inductive ignition systems, like his, produce a higher energy, longer duration spark than capacitive discharge systems (LSE). Klaus says, on his website, pretty much the opposite. I don't mean to hijack this thread, but if anyone has actual EFII fight experience, please comment. Switching to EFII dual ignition now opens the possibility of expanding to the EFII fuel injection later.
 
Thanks for this John!!!

Since ordering my fuselage kit and considering different options such as fuel pump, fuel valve, etc, I stumbled upon EFII's system during my researches.

I'm seriously leaning (no pun intented, ahaha) towards the electronic injection & ignition.
At almost a 5000$ option, I'll have to weigh in the benefits (more power, fuel savings, less maintenance, ease of installation, no mixture hassles, easy hot/cold starts, compatible w/ multiple fuels, less lead fouling, less weight, etc) and decide if it's worth it... I think it does...
 
12 flight (10 hours Tach) and so far so good on a O-360 with the full dual EFII ignition. I'm hoping to do some LOP runs in the near future (next week) and post my data. I'm not exactly sure what to tell people besides it's as advertised and my engine runs well.
-idles easily and smoothly at 500 with Catto prop
-engine runs very smoothly throughout the throttle range
-starting-it's been cold 12-50 degrees without a primer system but preheated haven't been a problem. No 1 blade and starting but the skytec spins the Catto pretty quick. Cold starts (50-60 oil/cylinder temp) take about 1.5-3 seconds to start, hot starts is less than .5 seconds. I had 1 cold start after sitting on the ramp for a chili lunch (oil 50/cylinder 30) that took several tries but was very typical for being that cold.
-LOP- probably next week
-Anything specific let me know and I'll try to answer

I've no before and after comparison but I'm very happy with the performance of the ignition and the entire airplane. I wish I would have sold my carb and used Robert's fuel injection. $800 on a new carb would have went a long way towards buying the FI, and I would be able to fine tune my fuel distribution. There's always the next project...
 
EFII in 540

Robert says they theres a few out there flying and a "bunch" coming up including mine. There's a few RV-10s with his system about to start their engines, so I'm sure there will be more data.
Robert is planning on visiting Barret Performance soon (where my engine is being built, and a few more coming down the line for his system) and making sure they are fully up to speed (pun....). Barret's dyno test cell is one of the best places to get raw data points from a running engine. Once that happens, it will open up a huge world of info for all of us.
Robert also plans on being there when my engine goes into the cell(still several months out) and mine is going to run on the dyno with both systems in place, Fuel Inj AND Ignition, so it'll really be dialed in by the time I get it....:D
 
My EFII ignition system is due in any day now. I'll have it installed and flying within five days of receiving it. I'm plotting baselines on the mags right now before I replace them.
 
crabandy said:
12 flight (10 hours Tach) and so far so good on a O-360 with the full dual EFII ignition. I'm hoping to do some LOP runs in the near future (next week) and post my data. I'm not exactly sure what to tell people besides it's as advertised and my engine runs well.
-idles easily and smoothly at 500 with Catto prop
-engine runs very smoothly throughout the throttle range
-starting-it's been cold 12-50 degrees without a primer system but preheated haven't been a problem. No 1 blade and starting but the skytec spins the Catto pretty quick. Cold starts (50-60 oil/cylinder temp) take about 1.5-3 seconds to start, hot starts is less than .5 seconds. I had 1 cold start after sitting on the ramp for a chili lunch (oil 50/cylinder 30) that took several tries but was very typical for being that cold.
-LOP- probably next week
-Anything specific let me know and I'll try to answer

I've no before and after comparison but I'm very happy with the performance of the ignition and the entire airplane. I wish I would have sold my carb and used Robert's fuel injection. $800 on a new carb would have went a long way towards buying the FI, and I would be able to fine tune my fuel distribution. There's always the next project...
Click to expand...

Andy,

I have been thinking about the dual system versus single and mine will be the full deal with fueling and ignition. One of my concerns with doing so is the wiring needed to enable switching the fueling role between the two ECUs. Have you researched the circuitry involved in being able to switch the injector function? Does it switch just the grounding side or the power side of the circuit? The install manual seems to leave this question open and I see no circuit diagram that includes the switching between ECUs for the fueling function. (Maybe Robert will comment here?)

I would think this switch and associated wiring would be very critical to reliability. Do you know if a special switch is required?

For me it might be a toss up between having full redundancy of both fueling and ign., versus the added complexity of the wiring and extra switching required. Interested in others thoughts on this one...

Has anyone on this forum actually installed the full dual EFII system with fueling and IGN? Comments?

Randall
 
Dual ECU EFII

Hi Randall,
With the Dual ECU EFII system, there are two ECUs, a dual crank trigger, dual IAT sensors, and dual MAP sensors. In other words each ECU has its own critical sensors.

In operation, one ECU runs the top plugs, and one ECU runs the bottom plugs at all times. There is an "ECU Select Switch" that mounts in the instrument panel. This switch is hard wired into the EFII harness. There is nothing for the customer to do in this regard except mount the switch in the panel. The ECU Select Switch transfers control of the injectors from one ECU to the other. It simply switches the trigger (negative) side of the injectors between the ECUs. This is the only function of this switch. This scheme has allowed us to offer the benefit of a fully redundant ECU setup while adding very little to system complexity. This offers the best compromise of redundancy plus reliability.

If you were to lose an ECU, you would only lose one set of plugs. Due to the high energy nature of our system, this poses only a very small loss in power.

There is an addendum at the end of the installation manual which discusses all this in further detail. The manual can be found linked near the bottom of our Customer Area page on the website.

We have been shipping dual ECU systems for about two years now. It has become a popular option and represents approx 60% of system sales at this point.

Robert Paisley
 
JDanno said:
My EFII ignition system is due in any day now. I'll have it installed and flying within five days of receiving it. I'm plotting baselines on the mags right now before I replace them.
Click to expand...

Looking forward to hearing back form you on this.....
BTW, Another 540 that is getting EFII just left Barret today.... dyno'd at 301HP!!! :eek:
 
rcpaisley said:
Hi Randall,
With the Dual ECU EFII system, there are two ECUs, a dual crank trigger, dual IAT sensors, and dual MAP sensors. In other words each ECU has its own critical sensors.

In operation, one ECU runs the top plugs, and one ECU runs the bottom plugs at all times. There is an "ECU Select Switch" that mounts in the instrument panel. This switch is hard wired into the EFII harness. There is nothing for the customer to do in this regard except mount the switch in the panel. The ECU Select Switch transfers control of the injectors from one ECU to the other. It simply switches the trigger (negative) side of the injectors between the ECUs. This is the only function of this switch. This scheme has allowed us to offer the benefit of a fully redundant ECU setup while adding very little to system complexity. This offers the best compromise of redundancy plus reliability.

If you were to lose an ECU, you would only lose one set of plugs. Due to the high energy nature of our system, this poses only a very small loss in power.

There is an addendum at the end of the installation manual which discusses all this in further detail. The manual can be found linked near the bottom of our Customer Area page on the website.

We have been shipping dual ECU systems for about two years now. It has become a popular option and represents approx 60% of system sales at this point.

Robert Paisley
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response here Robert. I have studied the install manual and the dual ECU addendum. I just could not find the details on the wiring for the injector switching between the ECUs.

Randall
 
ECU switch

Hi Randall,
The ECU select switch is prewired into the harness. No customer wiring necessary.

Robert
 
Bluelabel said:
Looking forward to hearing back form you on this.....
BTW, Another 540 that is getting EFII just left Barret today.... dyno'd at 301HP!!! :eek:
Click to expand...

My engine is also a Barrett with a three blade MT prop. It is VERY smooth. With the EFII system it might sound like a turbine! :D:p
I also have the exhaust that Barrett recomended. I can't remember the vender. It seems to be less restrictive than the Vetterman that my friend has on his IO-540. When descending down to the airport it rumbles like a downshifted 427 ci. stockcar engine. Awesome!
 
JDanno said:
My engine is also a Barrett with a three blade MT prop. It is VERY smooth. With the EFII system it might sound like a turbine! :D:p
I also have the exhaust that Barrett recomended. I can't remember the vender. It seems to be less restrictive than the Vetterman that my friend has on his IO-540. When descending down to the airport it rumbles like a downshifted 427 ci. stockcar engine. Awesome!
Click to expand...
Dan,
So you managed to get a Forseling Exhaust? You must have had it for a while... I spoke with him and he's pretty much retiring, not making anything anymore. Which leaves Vetterman as the only option if you need exhaust for a 540 with CAI. Unless there's someone else I don't know about....
I too am doing a 3 blade MT... Where did you get it? I'm planning on working with American Propeller here in CA. I can't get much info on color options from them. I just want the tips to match our paint.

Thanks,
JW
 
On EFII's web page, they dont list a 6 cyl Single ignition system. Any ideas why? That would seem to me to be a way for some to step into EI.
 
EFII 6 cyl ignitions

Hi Jchang,
We don't have a single 6 cyl ignition, simply because we don't have a suitable 6 outlet coil pack for this.

We offer 6 cyl dual ignitions in both single ECU and dual ECU versions. Both of these systems use three, 4 outlet coil packs. Below, you can see a nice pic of Dave Artman's RV-10 coil installation. He made a sub plate to mount the three coil packs side by side on the engine mount, aft of the plenum. Pretty clean setup!

Robert
photo_2.JPG
 
Yeah, it's from Forseling. Couldn't think of the name. I got mine last June. The way the tubes come together into the collector (3 into 1) is not restrictive like the Vetterman exhaust that's on my friend's. It's virtually a "straight" pipe. Lot's of flow!
The first time I backed off the throttle for landing I heard this distinctive rumble and I thought, "What the heck"? Sounds "rad" as the kids say.
I got my prop from the guy at Oxnard, CA area who was killed last year. Had to get a new spinner and I ordered that directly from the USA distributor. Order early as the German factory is slooow! Beautiful and smooth prop.

Bluelabel said:
Dan,
So you managed to get a Forseling Exhaust? You must have had it for a while... I spoke with him and he's pretty much retiring, not making anything anymore. Which leaves Vetterman as the only option if you need exhaust for a 540 with CAI. Unless there's someone else I don't know about....
I too am doing a 3 blade MT... Where did you get it? I'm planning on working with American Propeller here in CA. I can't get much info on color options from them. I just want the tips to match our paint.

Thanks,
JW
Click to expand...
 
JDanno said:
Yeah, it's from Forseling. Couldn't think of the name. I got mine last June. The way the tubes come together into the collector (3 into 1) is not restrictive like the Vetterman exhaust that's on my friend's. It's virtually a "straight" pipe. Lot's of flow!
The first time I backed off the throttle for landing I heard this distinctive rumble and I thought, "What the heck"? Sounds "rad" as the kids say.
I got my prop from the guy at Oxnard, CA area who was killed last year. Had to get a new spinner and I ordered that directly from the USA distributor. Order early as the German factory is slooow! Beautiful and smooth prop.
Click to expand...

Dan,
Do you remember who you dealt with/spoke with at Forsling? I called in October and the gentleman I spoke to, I think it was Forsling himself, said they weren't making exhausts anymore. That pretty much he was retiring and hanging it up.
 
[Robert, where did that nice looking plenum come from?

QUOTE=rcpaisley;844395]Hi Jchang,
We don't have a single 6 cyl ignition, simply because we don't have a suitable 6 outlet coil pack for this.

We offer 6 cyl dual ignitions in both single ECU and dual ECU versions. Both of these systems use three, 4 outlet coil packs. Below, you can see a nice pic of Dave Artman's RV-10 coil installation. He made a sub plate to mount the three coil packs side by side on the engine mount, aft of the plenum. Pretty clean setup!

Robert
photo_2.JPG
[/QUOTE]
 
Question on the pic of the 6 cylinder install. I thought spark plug lead wires were never supposed to touch each other especially in higher spark electronic ignitions because of possibility of arcing at higher altitudes. These wires are bundled tightly together. Is it a old wives tale to keep them apart?

George
 
rcpaisley said:
Hi Randall,
With the Dual ECU EFII system, there are two ECUs, a dual crank trigger, dual IAT sensors, and dual MAP sensors. In other words each ECU has its own critical sensors.
snipped
Robert Paisley
Click to expand...

Mr Paisley,
Does this system also use dual TPS [Throttle Position] sensors? I did not see that mentioned above. I also have a question regarding your electric fuel pump assembly [single pump] Does it contain a pressure relief valve and a check valve, as the AFP system does?

Charlie
 
Mike,
Yes, but I only see one TPS and in Mr. Paisley's statement which I quoted, he made no mention of there being an extra one, in his "dual" system.
Charlie
 
chaskuss said:
Mr Paisley,
Does this system also use dual TPS [Throttle Position] sensors? I did not see that mentioned above. I also have a question regarding your electric fuel pump assembly [single pump] Does it contain a pressure relief valve and a check valve, as the AFP system does?

Charlie
Click to expand...

Hi Charlie,
The TPS is a non critical sensor and is shared by the two ECUs in a dual system.
Power and ground are supplied by one ECU and the signal is split to both ECUs.
The TPS sensor is not required for safe operation. It simply supplies an accelerator pump function during rapid application of throttle.
The important sensors are fully duplicated in our redundant systems, including the crank trigger, MAP sensor, IAT sensor, and ECU of course.

Our Boost Pump does have a similar flow path to the AFP unit. The parts you mention are inside the smaller diameter cylinder of the Boost Pump Module.

Robert
 
Mr Paisley,
Thank you for the prompt reply and explanation. The TPS is not as critical a sensor on your system as it is on the late model cars and trucks I work on. Are your components manufactured in the USA, Canada, Western Europe or elsewhere? I ask, because in the past 6 years, I've seen an enormous drop in quality control of aftermarket replacement parts in the auto repair industry. It's getting difficult to find high quality aftermarket parts for certain areas of modern cars and trucks.
Charlie
 
EFII

Hi Charlie,
We use some components from high quality manufactures such as Siemens and Bosch. We manufacture all of our proprietary parts in house. Our ECUs are manufactured in Canada and are of very high quality. Quality is a very big deal for us. We also thoroughly test all systems before shipping. Saving money on components has never been part of our business formula. If you have the opportunity to install or use one of our systems, I am certain you will be very pleased with the quality and design throughout.

Robert
 
Any updates on this system....

It has been a few years since the last post..i was wondering if everyone is still happy w this system...Pro/Cons?
 
Good enough that I'm planning on it!

I'll be using it on the FB 8 I'm building. For all the reasons the site lists except extra power. Better mileage, lighter weight, single lever operation (mostly). It's going to be a leap of faith for me. I've always used a carb thus far for simplicity and reliability. However, I've only seen positive feedback about this system. So, I'm in!
 
Loving it

mdmba said:
It has been a few years since the last post..i was wondering if everyone is still happy w this system...Pro/Cons?
Click to expand...

At 80 hours, my system is phenomenal. The engine starts quickly and easily in all conditions. The engine is as smooth as a turbine.
The components are built and engineered better than anything else on the market. In my opinion, there's no comapison to what's out there. I did extensive reader he, hence this thead.
The only thing I have left to do is dial in the mapping. That's just a matter fo me learning about how I fly the plane. Like dialing in a "LOP" setting so the system will auto lean when I'm in an economy cruise setting...

Just last weekend, I flew from San Diego to north lake Tahoe(Truckee), at 10.5k, 160KTAS. In 2.6 hours. Averaging 9.5 GPH in cruise...filled up in Truckee, 28 gallons.... that's what I'm talking about.....
 
RV-8A with EFII in Ramona, CA

I have been flying Robert's EFII in my RV-8A O-360 for the past 6 months and I couldn't more satisfied. The quality of the parts is amazing, the wiring harnesses are exceptional and technical support was always available.

Mike McLane
Ramona, CA
 
Michael McLane said:
I have been flying Robert's EFII in my RV-8A O-360 for the past 6 months and I couldn't more satisfied. The quality of the parts is amazing, the wiring harnesses are exceptional and technical support was always available.

Mike McLane
Ramona, CA
Click to expand...

Mike,

Are you using Robert's Buss Manager?
 
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