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  #111  
Old 11-15-2011, 07:36 PM
RV8R999 RV8R999 is offline
 
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The OP should stand up in front of his fellow DARs during annual seminars and present the case, asking them to exercise their authority to issue a denial letter to known pro shops.

Bet you those guys will roll their eyes at the thought of giving up repetitive income.

I was brought up to do what was RIGHT not blindly follow rules.

if I felt I needed a 2nd pilot to conduct a specific flight test more safely you can bet your tootie I'd do it and willingly accept the consequences.

btw all our flight testing is done with two pilots even in single crew aircraft- always.
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  #112  
Old 11-15-2011, 07:47 PM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
OK, lots and lots of folks here would like to change the rules to allow what I would call "custom building" of airplanes by folks who know how to do it....

...So have any of you done anything about it except expounding here on VAF?
But expounding is what we do , Paul!

Yes, this has gone on a bit and my boredom today has certainly not helped that in any way, but we have at least resolved that this is not a significant safety issue.

What it is is a "dumb rule" issue, and that is going to cause some discussion.

BTW, I was brought up to question authority and the rules that come from it - especially dumb ones. I'm kind of conditioned to "over participate" in these kinds of discussions. I simply can't help it.

However, if nobody "quotes" me from here on, I'll stay out.
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WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

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1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C

Last edited by Toobuilder : 11-15-2011 at 07:51 PM.
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  #113  
Old 11-15-2011, 08:58 PM
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Subwaybob Subwaybob is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post
What it is is a "dumb rule" issue, and that is going to cause some discussion.

BTW, I was brought up to question authority and the rules that come from it - especially dumb ones.
OK, I will bite. Hopefully you are saying the "Failed Aviation Authority" has made a dumb rule by telling us who can and can not build. Let's remember the Government is here to protect us from invaders and build roads and of course airports. Outside of that, heck yes, stay OUT OF MY LIFE!

BTW the FAA and every other pencil pusher makes up their own rules on a daily basis. They should protect us with MINIMAL regulations. And no (Ironflight) we don't dare bring it up to the govt. They will beat "RV Central" out of us just to watch us bleed, then go to him and file charges just because we brought it to their attention.

I am going to build my own. However kudos to the entrepreneurs out there building for those who just wanna fly! I back you.
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  #114  
Old 11-15-2011, 09:34 PM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Subwaybob View Post
OK, I will bite...
Random final thoughts on the matter:

1) Hired guns and "crewmembers" in Phase 1 are not statistically significant safety issues.

2) The Feds just spent a bunch of time addressing the "hired guns issue", spent money, made rules - therefore satisfying the government's need to "do something". I suspect that they are happy for a while. I also think the continuing hired guns abuse is rare enough that it will not likely impact my right to build and fly in the near term.

3) If I'm wrong about #2, change the rules to make hired guns "ok" - problem solved.

Now I'm out!
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
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  #115  
Old 11-15-2011, 09:40 PM
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L.Adamson L.Adamson is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post
3) If I'm wrong about #2, change the rules to make hired guns "ok" - problem solved.
How about "builder assist". I still do not agree with hired guns putting together a complete aircraft, and handing over the keys. To me, it's the same as a non licensed, and non insured contractor competing with my company.

L.Adamson
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  #116  
Old 11-15-2011, 09:43 PM
WhiskeyMike WhiskeyMike is offline
 
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Originally Posted by comfortcat View Post
Call to action? What call to action? Are you suggesting we all pitch in to help folks who are making money by breaking rules, make money without breaking rules?
I take it from your comments that you?re not a supporter of this idea. That is your prerogative and I respect it. My belief is that ?custom building? should be permitted. So I support activities and efforts directed toward changing the rules to allow professional builders to openly provide their services to willing customers. Moreover, there is no reason why this can?t be achieved in such a way as to have zero impact on the rules pertaining to those who wish to build their own aircraft.
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  #117  
Old 11-15-2011, 09:57 PM
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L.Adamson L.Adamson is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeyMike View Post
So I support activities and efforts directed toward changing the rules to allow professional builders to openly provide their services to willing customers. Moreover, there is no reason why this can?t be achieved in such a way as to have zero impact on the rules pertaining to those who wish to build their own aircraft.
There is a major reason!

Van's isn't going to take the fall as the manufacturer, should an accident arise. Who does take the fall? Is there some type of liability insurance for hired guns? Could they afford it if there was? Would the hired gun have enough assets, without insurance? I doubt it!

Building a plane, as a hired gun, and placing the aircraft's registration in the buyers name is one thing. But do you think that certified aircraft manufactures will just stand by, and do nothing? If you do, your fooling yourselves.

L.Adamson --- RV6
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  #118  
Old 11-15-2011, 10:01 PM
aerhed aerhed is offline
 
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If I was jacking people half a million bucks for a skylane I definitely wouldn't want that undercut.
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  #119  
Old 11-16-2011, 01:24 AM
WhiskeyMike WhiskeyMike is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Adamson View Post
There is a major reason! Van's isn't going to take the fall as the manufacturer, should an accident arise. Who does take the fall? Is there some type of liability insurance for hired guns? Could they afford it if there was? Would the hired gun have enough assets, without insurance? I doubt it!

Building a plane, as a hired gun, and placing the aircraft's registration in the buyers name is one thing. But do you think that certified aircraft manufactures will just stand by, and do nothing? If you do, your fooling yourselves.
I don’t think we have to reinvent anything here…just look at how our Canadian friends handle these issues.
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Last edited by WhiskeyMike : 11-16-2011 at 10:17 AM.
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  #120  
Old 11-16-2011, 08:51 AM
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Mark12A Mark12A is offline
 
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You'd have to ascertain why the rule was put into place at all. It seems that a lot of government regulations are in place to protect large corporations and to discourage competition. Is that a legitimate responsibility of government? A true "free market" would allow independent operators to be developed because there is apparently a market niche for them. The "free market" would deal harshly with those operators who do shoddy work or gouge the consumers.

Having said that, I'm not going to encourage anyone to violate black-letter law or flaunting regulation. I'm a pure free-market guy but I realize that there is no such animal, and wishing just won't make it so. We can moan and complain to one another and it has no impact other than to elevate blood pressures. If anyone cared enough, they'd do what Cessna and other civil aircraft producers do...they'd lobby, develop advocacy groups, and try to buy a congressman or two to sell their agenda. I've heard congressmen come cheap...

Until then, it's caveat emptor. Let's hope the FAA doesn't visit one of these commercial shops and do a strict accounting of who built what because I expect there would be great wailing afterwards...
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