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  #41  
Old 11-24-2020, 07:03 AM
Nihon_Ni's Avatar
Nihon_Ni Nihon_Ni is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raabs View Post
No accidents, no claims, no violation, no other issues.



A quick addition of items.
QB ~$68k w shipping.
I/O 540 $52k
Prop $9k
Avionics $40-$50k
Aero sport or similar interior w/ OH console $7k+
Paint $20k +/-
Thatís $196k-$206k for starters?
Plus tax and a whole lot of misc.

Of course you can do slow build if you have time, learn how to paint exterior, sew interior etc.
Understating the hull value might lower your premiums, but being underinsured has drawbacks. A better way might be to actually lower the value of your plane for your initial insured period.

Have you thought about a phased approach to the final airplane? You could lower the hull value $30-50K by delaying paint and some of the avionics. If you have one or more GTN-equivalents in your panel, you could wire the tray(s) but delay purchasing the box. (I considered doing this in my RV-8 just for the sake of warranty preservation for an IFR navigator that I wouldn't need until I was out of Phase 1.) Once you get your plane flying and get through the first year, you could finish the plane and raise the insured hull value without the steep entry penalty.
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RV-8 N884RA under construction
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  #42  
Old 11-24-2020, 08:17 AM
lr172 lr172 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 5,760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketman1988 View Post
I don't think there are many people who have the financial ability to fly uninsured...you may be able to cover the aircraft damage/loss but the LIABILITY is where it will be expensive...
The vast majority of claims are for hull damage. Liability claims are quite small in percentage. Therefore, getting liability only coverage is quite inexpensive. I just renewed my 10 and the liability only quote was somewhere around $400 per year.

Financially able or not, it makes no sense not to have liability coverage, given the low cost and high risk. If you own your plane with no loan on it, self-insuring for damage is usually a potentially viable option. If you have a loan on the plane, pretty likely that insurance is required. Also, if the value of the plane is considered part of the families assets that are necessary for retirement or other purposes, then insurance becomes necessary.

Larry
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N64LR - RV-6A / IO-320, Flying as of 8/2015
N11LR - RV-10, Flying as of 12/2019

Last edited by lr172 : 11-24-2020 at 08:28 AM.
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  #43  
Old 11-24-2020, 08:35 AM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sunman, IN
Posts: 2,343
Default I guess

I guess that I am not being clear.

Yes, liability coverage only IS substantially cheaper, I am not disputing that.

The post I replied to said to SELF INSURE, meaning NO insurance, liability or hull.

I made the statement that very few people could afford the liability, as in if someone were to get hurt or killed. The LIABILITY lawsuit would cost more than the vast majority of people to could afford to pay...

Hope that clears it up...
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Aerospace Engineer '88

RV-10
Phase I as of 12-02-2020

Dues+ Paid 2020,...Thanks DR+
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  #44  
Old 11-24-2020, 08:48 AM
spatsch spatsch is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Plano, TX
Posts: 248
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Maybe I am just confused so please correct me.

With the 100k$ limit per person even on a 1mil$ insurances liability insurance actually covers less then many hull limits. So if you crash with one passenger your insured liability risk is lower then your hull risk.

So I am confused on how you might think you can afford e.g. loosing the 220k$ RV-10 but you canít afford the 100k$ the insurance would cover in liability. Seems you can either afford a loss of a couple of hundred k$ in which case you could afford both or you canít in which case you need both insurances.

Somebody did mention that the liability insurance would defend you if being sued. I am curious if that is actually true. I donít recall seeing anything in my insurance policy which would prevent the insurance from just writing a 100k$ check to the injured party and walk away leaving me with the remaining litigation cost and risk exposure. So in a sense they would only defend me if they see a good case of wining at a cost lower then 100k$ in litigation cost.

What am I missing?

Oliver
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RV-8
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  #45  
Old 11-24-2020, 09:04 AM
pilotyoung pilotyoung is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 223
Default RV-10 $18,000 insurance quote

First, with most insurance companies, the $100,000 sub-limit on liability only applies to a passenger. I got a quote recently from Avemco for my Onex, and the $100,000 sub-limit in their policy applied to persons. This is a big difference. A passenger is usually defined as a person in the aircraft. The per person sub-limit applies to any person regardless of where they are, in the airplane, on the ground, etc. So two examples which will clarify this. First, you are sitting on the ground, you go to start the engine, and as you start it a person walks into the prop and is killed. With Avemco, you only have $100,000 of liability coverage. With the other companies, you have 1,000,000 of liability coverage. Or as you are flying, the engine quits and there is no good place to land. You wind up hitting a house and kill 4 people. Again with Avemco, you have $400,000 of liability coverage, $100,000 per person. With other companies, you have $1,000,000 of liability coverage. This post is not meant to say anything negative about Avemco, just to explain the different kinds of sub-limits.

All policies have a defense clause. That is the insurance company has to defend you until the claim is settled, or a judgment is reached and the insurance company has paid its liability limit. So the company cannot just write a check for $100,000 and walk away unless they get a liability release for you.

The reality is that any time a person is killed or seriously injured a liability limit of $100,000 is not enough! Buy the highest liability limit that you can, and try to buy a policy that does not have the sub-limit of $100,000 per passenger. When I bought and insured my RV-12 and my Onex, I was not able to find a company willing to write the liability insurance without the 100,000 sub-limit.
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Serial Number 120022, N6812Y
Bought it as a flying airplane in Feb. 2018
Just passed 300 hours flight time in RV-12, and 10,000 hours mostly in corporate jets. I am a CFI; CFII; MEI; and a Advanced Ground Instructor, CFIG; and hoping to be able to help new RV-12 owners by doing some transition training for new builders and owners in RV-12's.
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  #46  
Old 11-24-2020, 09:22 AM
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MacCool MacCool is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: central Minnesota
Posts: 347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketman1988 View Post

The post I replied to said to SELF INSURE, meaning NO insurance, liability or hull.

I made the statement that very few people could afford the liability, as in if someone were to get hurt or killed. The LIABILITY lawsuit would cost more than the vast majority of people to could afford to pay...

In this state, "going bare" isn't an option for an airworthy aircraft. Minnesota requires liability insurance as a condition of registration. Proof of insurance has to be included with each annual registration. Other states are similar in requiring liability insurance, or at least require proof of financial responsibility (usually in the form a surety bond of some kind). Proof of insurance is also required by the airport where I keep my plane as a condition of hangar rental. YMMV.


...

Last edited by MacCool : 11-24-2020 at 09:27 AM.
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  #47  
Old 11-24-2020, 10:49 AM
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jestes jestes is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Saint Peters, MO
Posts: 61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raabs View Post
Per my earlier post, they are now indicating 250 hrs would bring it down to $3-$4k depending on hull value. I will be flying the **** out of something for 6 mos and finishing the IFR ticket.

This is how crazy the insurance market has gotten with apparently only 4 carriers writing new policies on -10s.

The market has changed significantly over the past year and we are seeing that the pilot requirements for many aircraft have changed as well. Specifically the RV-10, RV-8, and RV-12ís. To get a decent rate on a RV-10 the pilot needs a minimum of 250 total logged hours, and an instrument rating helps as well. When the aircraft is a new build we only have 3-4 carriers that will cover the test phase in full with no restrictions to coverage. Out of these carrier's there are only 1-2 that will quote pilots at 250 total hours, while the other 2 need 300 total or even 500 total logged pilot hours. The advice we can give for anyone building an RV-10 is to work on building up your total hours to at least 250 and work on getting your instrument rating. The rates have increased over last year so even as a higher time pilot you will most likely see an increase at your renewal. As always reach out to your broker with any questions and concerns you may have.
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Jenny Estes/Brower
Light Aircraft Manager
Gallagher Aviation
Formerly NationAir Aviation Insurance

Arthur J. Gallagher Risk Management Services, Inc.
Direct: 877-648-8267| Mobile: 636-357-7232 I Fax: 636-532-3646
http://ajg.com/lightaircraft / | www.ajg.com
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  #48  
Old 11-24-2020, 11:19 AM
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MacCool MacCool is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: central Minnesota
Posts: 347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotyoung View Post
The reality is that any time a person is killed or seriously injured a liability limit of $100,000 is not enough! Buy the highest liability limit that you can, and try to buy a policy that does not have the sub-limit of $100,000 per passenger.
I have a $2 million Umbrella liability policy, but aviation accidents are excluded
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  #49  
Old 11-24-2020, 10:21 PM
flyinhood flyinhood is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: 52F
Posts: 206
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We could not find smooth anywhere

We do carry an umbrella, but we could not find a policy anywhere that did not have an aviation exclusion

We consulted an attorney and were made aware that any negligence on my behalf will not protect our assets held in trust

We carry 200,000 per pax just in case something happens

I have a liability waiver that I have spouses and parents sign.

Other than that...that's the best I can do to enjoy my RV and still share it with other people.
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RV-6, IO-320, Catto, G3X Panel (Thanks Walt!)
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  #50  
Old 11-25-2020, 09:50 AM
Deweyclawson Deweyclawson is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Enon Valley
Posts: 200
Default liability

For example:
You have $100,000 per person liability.
An injured pax sues you for $1,000,000.
Before trial, the pax offers to settle for $100,000.
The ins company refuses as that is the limit of the policy so they they have nothing to lose by refusing to settle.
The pax wins big at trial and is awarded the $1,000,000.
The ins co. must pay $1,000,000
By refusing to settle, the ins co. has accepted virtually unlimitted liability as they have a fiduciary reponsibility to protect the client and they have breached that responsibility by not settling for $100,000.

This is one big reason why ins companies are so willing to settle out of court.
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Super Sabre Society
2012 RV10; 1947 Cessna 140, in progress
2020 dues exempt but paid anyhow
F100, A7D, A10, F16,
Fokker, Boeing, McDonnell-Douglas
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