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SB 14-01-31; RV-6, 7, 8

Hi Scott I'm probably being blind ;) but having downloaded the Section 5 http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/revisions/RV-ALL_Section-5.pdf I cannot see a section on "Removal of Rivets"?

I am sure from your post it is there - any chance of a page / section ref please?

+1 Andy. I did find a section titled "drilling out rivets" and it quoted from an Alcoa manual about how sometimes it's not necessary.

Scott, please let us know where the new information on rivet removal is located. I've been drilling out rivets, gently, for a long time. Heads removed and body punched out. If this has changed, we early builders need to know.
 
Hi Scott I'm probably being blind ;) but having downloaded the Section 5 http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/revisions/RV-ALL_Section-5.pdf I cannot see a section on "Removal of Rivets"?

I am sure from your post it is there - any chance of a page / section ref please?

oops, my bad.
It turns out the detailed rivet removal update hasn't gone public yet (I thought it had) and will be released at the same time the update to the RV-7 and 8 plans is released (should hopefully be by the end of the week).
I will try and remember to post a link to it in this thread when it is released.
 
RV-7 & 8 updated plans?

oops, my bad.
It turns out the detailed rivet removal update hasn't gone public yet (I thought it had) and will be released at the same time the update to the RV-7 and 8 plans is released (should hopefully be by the end of the week).
I will try and remember to post a link to it in this thread when it is released.

I don't want to drift this thread, but updated plans for the -7 & -8?
Do we watch Van's website for this info?
Thanks
Tom
 
Cracks!

My buddy checked his plane:

RV-7
O-320, Sensenich FP
mild acro
35% on grass
1350h

Relief notches
Cracks left and right top :eek:
 
Scott, (rvbuilder2002)

After the testing was performed before the SB was written, what is the theory for the cause of the cracking that was found? :)
 
New kit, standing by...

Looks like the HS is getting a bit of a redesign. (For reference, emp. kit 7-4286 ordered on 1/13/14 and delivered on 1/20/14.)

My pick list has no mention of HS-404 and HS-405 at all, instead it lists "HS-00006" and "HS-00005" respectively, both back-ordered. However the included full-size instructions and plans (Section 6: 7sbr2 6/13/11, DWG 3 R1 1/7/02) still refer to the original part numbers.

When I called the factory last week to report inventory complete (minus a single pop-rivet) and ask about the b/o'ed parts, they said it was a redesign, should be available late-Feb. (with new plans/drawings) and start with the VS instead.

I'm still in the middle of a practice kit anyway so no worries just yet. So I guess if your kit is as new as mine, no need to order the SB pieces yet.
 
RV-6A: No cracks

RV-6A built in 2000
3rd owner
430 TT
0-320 FP Wood, cruise pitch
No acro
No grass - all pavement
Always hangared
No cracks
Full height web - no notches
NOT happy with the workmanship found in the in the HS front spar area, and may have the reinforcement done per SB even if no cracks appear in the future.

Question: I am NOT the builder. Is it legal for me to sign off that I did the inspection per SB?

-Dave
SoCal
 
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Question: I am NOT the builder. Is it legal for me to sign off that I did the inspection per SB?
-Dave
SoCal

Yes. You can sign off the SB inspection. You may NOT sign off a condition inspection unless you are an A&P.
 
RV-6 serial number 23519 (1994)
1143 hours
O-360 A1A
Two blade Catto prop
Very limited acro
99% pavement
NO CRACKS
Phew!
 
2003 RV6A
600tt
Grass and pavement
2nd owner
No cracks
No notches
Will monitor each condition inspection.


John
 
Results on 3 RV Super 8's

I removed the fairings today and checked on mine and a friend's RV Super 8's (One an IO-540 the other an O-540). One has 100 ish hours on the airframe, mine had 570.5 hours on the hobbs as of today and NO CRACKS.

Another Super 8 on the north side of Indy though, had a 3/4 inch crack on one side, and he says that he will be redoing the whole H.S.. Bummer, but it's nice that Van's is getting the word out and a fix that will seriously beef up the area in question. It's also good to know that Van's holds their customers safety as a high priority.
 
RV-8 SN 80366 Horz Built 1997 1st Flt Mar 2006
600 hours
Superior IO 360
Acro and formation, Lots of Grass operations
NO CRACKS:)
 
The -7 HS has the slot, at least mine did, but the -8 HS does not.
Early -7 non-prepunched kits did not have the slot. My kit came with prepunched skins, non-punched spars. DWG3 (not 3PP) has no mention of the notch.

I wonder if the SB could have been a bit more selective in defining on which aircraft the cracks are occurring. So far there are no reports of a crack where the slot is absent, at least not that I have read.
I thought so too, but as of today I just found out that my hangar mate's -6 has at least one crack. No notches. This is a -6 that has given a fair bit of transition training however, so it may not be completely representative of the fleet.
 
Not necessarily Jon...

I agree that there has been a lot of conjecture here on VAF, but that doesn't mean the development of the modification was based on that.

A detailed CAD model and FEA (Finite Element Analysis) was done on the Horizontal Stab. after the problem was detected. The mod. was developed based on those results, and the knowledge that people will have to be able to successfully install it as a retrofit.

).

Thanks Scott. That is very reassuring.
Do you have any theories as to what is actually causing this?
We have relatively low time machines that have never seen any rough duty with cracks and at the same time high time high g acro planes with no cracks. It is baffling....
 
2011 RV-8 QB
170 hours
Frequent acro, no grass strips
Had notches on top
No cracks.

-John
 
...A detailed CAD model and FEA (Finite Element Analysis) was done on the Horizontal Stab. after the problem was detected....

Was there any specific mechanism or variation in assembly attributable to these cracks?


... One thing to consider before doing this... The bolt connections that attach the stab to the fuselage are just as important as any of the rivets that need to be removed are. Do you know for certain that when you drilled those holes, they were drilled exactly perpendicular to the parts involved. Are you confident, that you can accurately match drill, from below (in a very limited work space), to have a good close clearance fit between the fuselage and the new stabilizer?

Given this, would it be prudent for someone who has yet to skin his HS to go ahead and complete the SB modification? Or, is it recommended to build per original plans and then only complete the SB modification if cracks are later discovered?
 
Root Cause?

Scott, (rvbuilder2002)

After the testing was performed before the SB was written, what is the theory for the cause of the cracking that was found? :)

Echoing Mr. Reiley, Scott - what's the root cause, or theory behind this problem? Secondly, what's the FMEA show if this is left unresolved?
 
For the Canadian RV owners... Note that repair will require reporting to, and possible inspection by, Transport Canada. See CAR 549.23, specifically the opening paragraph and the Information Note at the end.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/regserv/cars/part5-standards-549-sub-a-1785.htm
549.23 Design Changes and Repairs

[Design changes and repairs affecting structural integrity, geometry, performance (e.g. change of c.g. limits) and maximum permissible take-off mass will require an inspection by a DOT representative,and may invalidate the Special Certificate of Airworthiness for amateur-built aircraft. Following a design change or repair:]

(a) A new Weight and Balance Report and Climb Test Report may be required,

[(b) Changes or repairs shall be annotated in the Aircraft Technical Records, including the Journey Log book; and]

[(c)] The Minister may request a new Special C of A application or inspections.

[Information Note:

[(a) Changes which will invalidate the Special C of A for amateur-built aircraft, and require a new Weight and Balance Report and Climb Test include:

[ (1) A change in the type or model of the engine. This does not include engine changes within the same series.

[ (2) A change resulting in a mass (weight) exceeding the maximum permissible stated on the special C of A for amateur-built aircraft.

[ (3) An initial change in landing gear from wheels/skis to floats or floats to wheels/skis.

[ (b) A change from wheels to skis or skis to wheels will only require an amendment to the Weight and Balance report.

[ (c) Changes which will require an inspection by a DOT representative include:

[ (1) Any change or major repair affecting structural integrity; and

[ (2) For aerobatic aeroplanes, changes to control surfaces.]

(Change 549-1 (93-06-30))

(Amendment 549-2 (96-04-01))
 
2008 RV8 (2007 Kit)
500 TT
O-360/188HP
Whirlwind CS Prop
One LSI EI/ one MAG
Frequent acro / some grass
No notches
No cracks
 
RV7 s/n 71036 680 hrs
O360 FP
light acro
Paved and dirt
Tow bar
No cracks with notches
New owner was happy!
 
add to the totals - no cracks

I inspected my HS today per the SB. I also helped check another builders RV-6. Dave Cook's RV-6 had no cracks either.

My -6
RV-6 Started 1998
Flying since Oct 2011
250 hours
O-360 A1A Fixed Pitch Sensenich
Limited Acro
Grass strips when I can
No notches, not on plans
No cracks

Dave's -6
RV-6 Flying for 7 years
350 hours
O-360 Mattituck
No acro
Some grass strips
No notches, not on plans
No cracks

The photos show what I originally saw. I/WE DID CLEAN THE PAINT FROM THE AREA WITH MEK, and THEN EXAMINED THE AREAS WITH A BRIGHT LIGHT AND MAGNIFYING GLASS.

I believe as Danny King and others stated, some RV'ers may not be looking hard enough.


One section of my HS (and yes, I wish I had done a better job of setting some of the rivets.... and stopping the overspray)

2mxr97l.jpg


Dave's RV-6

15dpbnr.jpg
 
No Problems :)

So from New Zealand 2 x RV7a's @ around 300hours each. No problems found with inspection. The comment was made to me that this may effect tail draggers worse than trikes?

Interested on what you guys find.....
 
RV6A no cracks

RV6A #24567
450 hrs +/-
pavement only
no acro
0360A1A
Fixed pitch
No Cracks

One other RV6A on field and RV7A also no cracks.
 
It has been asked "Are there any theories of the cause."

Yes!
One, is that it is dependent one what primer the builder used :D
(Sorry, couldn't resist).

In reality, it is only guessing why one aircraft with only 500 hrs has a crack, and another with 2000 hrs does not. As I mentioned previously, there are a bunch of factors that could influence this, so there is no way to pin it down to one or two specifics. The proper way to look at it is that with as high of an occurrence percentage there is, the structure, as currently designed doesn't have enough margin to deal with that many variables.

A crack failure like this is the result of cyclic loading. This is more difficult to design for than pure load capability. It is why company's like Boeing spend tons of money doing long term load cycle testing, such as fuselage pressure cycles, and load/unload cycles of wings. etc.

This sort of thing is more difficult to design for than just handling the pure limit and ultimate loads. That is why Boeing has to do cyclic testing... to prove that the airframe has a load cycle life of at least X amount of time. Unfortunately, Van's isn't a company of the size that could afford to do that type of testing. But then again, neither is Beech, Cessna, or any of the other big names in GA. They have all had major (much more so than this) mods on different aircraft as the result of time in service.

Fortunately, there are tools available that can help. Without going into a high level of detail, the FEA showed that there is an elevated point load right at the location the cracks occur. This is because of a number of factors but in simplest terms it is this.
Think of any "C" channel load member as being stiffer than just a plain web by it self. In the case of the stab. spar, we have a c channel at the center of the spar (the spar web with top and bottom angles), and a c channel for the spar in the L & R panels. These two c channels are joined by a narrow zone where one flange of the top and bottom angles has ended but the flanges of the span wise spar channels has not yet begun. This should not be considered a weak point... it has proven more than strong enough to carry the loads. What it does, is make that point slightly less stiff than the surrounding structure. That means it will flex just a bit more each time it goes though a load/unload cycle. With enough time/cycles, this is what causes the crack. Many of the other factors already discussed do have an influence (edge finish quality, etc.), but the bottom line is it appeared the design margin was a bit to small.
So what does the modification do? In simple terms, it adds stiffness to this slightly less stiff zone, and helps transfer the loads well out into the stiffer zones (the center spar area, and the left and right panel areas). This was substantiated with the FEA model.

Yes there is a kit modification underway. New builds will use the same type of doubler parts as are being used for the retrofit. There are new ribs going into production that will accommodate the thickness change of the spar. As already mentioned, builders working on an Emp kit should just work on other components. By the time you get to the H stab, the parts and updated plans and manual will be available.
 
kit change

Yes there is a kit modification underway. New builds will use the same type of doubler parts as are being used for the retrofit. There are new ribs going into production that will accommodate the thickness change of the spar. As already mentioned, builders working on an Emp kit should just work on other components. By the time you get to the H stab, the parts and updated plans and manual will be available.

Scott
Thanks for keeping us posted.
Do you know if the new ribs will eventually be parts in the SB kit? If I read correctly, they come out. It makes sense to put new ones in that are sized to fit.
I'm going to wait to decide on SB kit or new HS. Since I'm working on wings, there's plenty of time to let things settle out.
 
WTF?

To RVBuilder2002: After years of SB inactivity, why have there been two SBs over one weekend?

What are you guys hiding?
 
To RVBuilder2002: After years of SB inactivity, why have there been two SBs over one weekend?

What are you guys hiding?

Wow.

I'm frustrated too - especially since a lot of people probably jumped through hoops to inspect their HS, only to come home and learn of another SB in the same general area. But c'mon man.

I figure Van's had two option. Let the word out that SB's are imminent and let 8000 builders stew over rumor and innuendo for days or weeks, OR, keep it quiet, then rapidly develop and release the SB's.

The latter is probably a better choice.
 
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I've never heard of removing rivets without drilling them out. I know Van's hasn't updated Section 5.yet but I assume they're not inventing the process. Is anyone familiar with this distinction?

Also, having removed my elevator to facilitate inspection, I reinstalled it just in time to come home and see the new SB. Time to invest in a boroscope, I guess.
 
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RV6's RV7's RV8's have gone thru A&P, IA & Builder Condition Inspections for how many years? The factory aircraft have gone thru inspections how many times. And in ONE weekend, we're slammed with TWO SB's. What is up with Van's here? Not of business character for sure. :mad: Heck, before we get SB #3 this week on the VS, just send us all a new redesigned tail kit and be done with it! Sure would protect OUR investment.
 
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I've never heard of removing rivets without drilling them out. I know Van's hasn't updated Section 5.yet but I assume they're not inventing the process. Is anyone familiar with this distinction?

I think I know what Scott was referring to... On page 5 of the PDF he linked to, there's a page of graphics describing the riveting process. At the bottom of that page, near the center, is a set of graphics showing rivet removal. The process described there is to drill the rivet only far enough to snap off the head, then use a punch to drive out the remaining shank.

This as opposed to just drilling though the whole rivet, which is what many people think of when one says "drilling out rivets".
 
No cracks yet

RV-7 Tipper
2006 vintage tail kit
Flying since October 2008
350 hours
4 relief notches present
195 hp IO-360-m1b
Hartzell BA CS prop
95% pavement
occasional gentleman's acro
No cracks... yet
Bogert tow bar most of the time

Planning to keep flying and inspecting at each oil change until I'm comfortable with the repair process.
 
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RV6's RV7's RV8's have gone thru A&P, IA & Builder Condition Inspections for how many years? The factory aircraft have gone thru inspections how many times. And in ONE weekend, we're slammed with TWO SB's. What is up with Van's here? Not of business character for sure. :mad: Heck, before we get SB #3 this week on the VS, just send us all a new redesigned tail kit and be done with it! Sure would protect OUR investment.

To be fair, the issue with cracks in the spar near the eyebolts was raised here on VAF many months ago and discussed extensively. Kudos to Vans for raising the awareness by making it a Service Bulletin, but it is definitely not a "new" issue. I'm glad to see that Vans has looked into it in more detail, and probably with more FEA to zero in on the weak points as well.
 
To be fair, the issue with cracks in the spar near the eyebolts was raised here on VAF many months ago and discussed extensively. Kudos to Vans for raising the awareness by making it a Service Bulletin, but it is definitely not a "new" issue. I'm glad to see that Vans has looked into it in more detail, and probably with more FEA to zero in on the weak points as well.

To be fair... Van's needs to come clean with the folks that spent their hard earned money on a kit, to learn that these issues have been known about and researched but not forwarded to builders and owners. We all can help with inspections etc... but an unknown blast of surprise SB's really sucks bigtime. :mad:
 
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...A crack failure like this is the result of cyclic loading.

.... As already mentioned, builders working on an Emp kit should just work on other components. By the time you get to the H stab, the parts and updated plans and manual will be available.

Thanks! That answers my questions.
 
I think I know what Scott was referring to... On page 5 of the PDF he linked to, there's a page of graphics describing the riveting process. At the bottom of that page, near the center, is a set of graphics showing rivet removal. The process described there is to drill the rivet only far enough to snap off the head, then use a punch to drive out the remaining shank.

This as opposed to just drilling though the whole rivet, which is what many people think of when one says "drilling out rivets".

Actually there is a little more to it than that.
It is not earth shaking new info, but it can make a big difference in avoiding messing something up.

Wait till the update comes out. It will be very clear.
 
Started the repair

I pulled the HS off this evening. Took all of about 2 hours.
For $15 and a few evenings work this SB is really not a big deal.

Something similar in the "certified" world would be very expensive!

Seems strange to see One Charlie Mike without her tail feathers again.

934ebb2f-46d8-4c67-a7f7-969e872b0b3a.jpg



Data Point: The HS will fit into a Subaru Crosstrek ;)
My RV has a Lycoming! In case you were wondering.

5b4aa35a-e11e-4a08-b5af-9c6d15808be1.jpg


I'm taking the HS home to the garage to do the work. It's where I built the airplane. It's heated and has good lighting.

I'll post about the progress later.

Mark
 
To be fair... Van's needs to come clean with the folks that spent their hard earned money on a kit, to learn that these issues have been known about and researched but not forwarded to builders and owners. We all can help with inspections etc... but an unknown blast of surprise SB's really sucks bigtime. :mad:

-d-,
Leaping to a lot of conclusions there aren't you?

What would your response have been if it was announced 5 weeks (or so) ago when it was first discovered, but no fix was developed.
You probably would have been complaining about why would we notify about a problem and not have a fix for it:rolleyes:
I think 5 weeks is pretty darn good.

Yes, the elevator one has been know about for a bit longer, but I am only aware of 3 or 4 airplanes (out of a lot that were inspected) that had the problem. And it doesn't even require removing a fairing or inspection cover to check. Just grab a flash light and look!

I guess I should have learned by now that there are people in the world that wont be happy regardless what you do.
Mods feel free to delete this, because it is likely to go no where good... just had to vent.

I'm done here.
 
What am I missing. Vans discovered a problem, identified it's likely cause, and engineered and documented a repair. Not sure what else they can do.
That certainly meets my expectation.
 
Anyone considered number of full stalls as a factor?

Couple of RV builders I know will not do stalls anymore after observing their HS during full stalls. Lots of "loading/unloading"--maybe more so than aerobatics, or hard landings, tri-gear, or tail-dragger.
Perhaps Vans Demo planes do the most stalls per flight hour? Even though someone does lots of acro, maybe they do few stalls. And maybe someone who does no acro does more stalls?
Just my 2 cents.
 
-d-,
Leaping to a lot of conclusions there aren't you?

What would your response have been if it was announced 5 weeks (or so) ago when it was first discovered, but no fix was developed.
You probably would have been complaining about why would we notify about a problem and not have a fix for it:rolleyes:
I think 5 weeks is pretty darn good.

Yes, the elevator one has been know about for a bit longer, but I am only aware of 3 or 4 airplanes (out of a lot that were inspected) that had the problem. And it doesn't even require removing a fairing or inspection cover to check. Just grab a flash light and look!

I guess I should have learned by now that there are people in the world that wont be happy regardless what you do.
Mods feel free to delete this, because it is likely to go no where good... just had to vent.

I'm done here.

Scott,

Not trying to pound on you! You answer randomly here when questions are asked. Van's needs to speak up and let us know (the maufacturers of the aircraft) what is going on. Take polls, send emails etc.. Just don't throw out two SB in a weekend and expect us all to be okay with it. :) Help us help you.
 
Scott,

Not trying to pound on you!

Maybe not your intent to "pound" on Scott and Vans, but it sure sounds like what you are doing to me.

------ in ONE weekend, we're slammed with TWO SB's. What is up with Van's here? Not of business character for sure. :mad: Heck, before we get SB #3 this week on the VS, just send us all a new redesigned tail kit and be done with it! Sure would protect OUR investment.


... Van's needs to come clean with the folks that spent their hard earned money on a kit, to learn that these issues have been known about and researched but not forwarded to builders and owners. We all can help with inspections etc... but an unknown blast of surprise SB's really sucks bigtime. :mad:

From what I can see looking at this thread, Scott has been very open with information, and has tried to deal with the issue in a manner that is well balanced and thought out. The explanation of the process arriving at the SB (computer modeling etc) shows that this is well thought out and engineered solution. This type of action does not happen overnight-----takes time to develop.

What am I missing. Vans discovered a problem, identified it's likely cause, and engineered and documented a repair. Not sure what else they can do.
That certainly meets my expectation.

Well said Jon.
 
Reiley

I think you're giving Vans, and Scott especially, too much of a hard time and it would be a shame if Scott decided not to post as a result.

The 2nd SB is not news at all... been well trailed on here as discussed above.

In each case Vans has done a good job in not just alerting the problem, but also designing and starting production of a fix. Yes - we all are asking more questions (some of which are probably not possible to answer), but I cannot see how that could be avoided.

Scott - thanks for the updates and will await the "drill-less rivet removal" technique :D
 
New Zealand RV7
600h
Lots of Aerobatics,
Occasionally grass strips
Clear cracks on both sides.

In order to take out of hanger I need to lift the tail onto a tow bar. I have often used the horizontal stabiliser to do this, and wonder if this could a contributing factor to the clear cracks. In hindsight I should use the spike.
Have already removed the horizontal stabiliser and will not fly until I have fitted SB 14-01-31

Will add photos shortly if I can
 
Couple of RV builders I know will not do stalls anymore after observing their HS during full stalls. Lots of "loading/unloading"--maybe more so than aerobatics, or hard landings, tri-gear, or tail-dragger.
Perhaps Vans Demo planes do the most stalls per flight hour? Even though someone does lots of acro, maybe they do few stalls. And maybe someone who does no acro does more stalls?
Just my 2 cents.

And accelerated stalls.

We have a video in the APS course of George Braly doing testing on the T34 when the FAA were about to ground the fleet. He had strain gauges all over this thing and was replicating flight loads. GAMI subsequently came up with what I still consider to be the most brilliant solution to any difficult problem I have seen to date.

But the funny part was he collected some video of the tail feathers doing accelerated stalls at 117kts. :eek::eek::eek:

After seeing this video you will never want to do one ever again! And I mean it.

rvbuilder2002
Imagine the same thing from Cessna....timely, $10 fix?

Vans are at the pinnacle of customer service in the industry, along with a small group of others I can think of, but it is very small. Be grateful for what we have, it does not get better, trust me. Tried Lycoming or TCM? :cool:
 
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I'm done here.

All of us (except maybe one) hope that's not permanent.

As for Van's response to the issues - try getting any on-going support from many other kit suppliers, let alone for discontinued models (RV6). Some people don't appreciate when they are well off.
 
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Rvbuilder2002,
Your insight is very appreciated please do not hesitate to post. Your input carries the most weight with me. I wish the complainers would go work on their car or something. They should stay away from airplanes, airports, and this forum.

Would you be willing to comment on the relief notches vs normal smoothed radius as it relates to FEA?
 
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I hope Scott continues to provide what he knows here on this and many more subjects.

In fairness, if the fact that the HS issue was just discovered and 5 weeks later a SB was engineered and put into effect was known earlier it would have eased a lot of minds. Maybe the SB should contain that information.

Scott, sincerely, THANK YOU for what you do on VAF to help builders.
 
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It goes without saying that we appreciate Scott's efforts.

That said, it'd be great if a separate thread could be set up for the flame war portion of this discussion so that those of us trying to get solid technical information don't have to wade through the noise. This is pretty serious business.
 
2004 RV6A
420 Hr. TT
O-360-A-1-A
FP Stensenich
50% grass
some Acro
No relief notch
No cracks !!
 
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