Unison LASAR / Slick ignition question...

I have hung my LAZER module on the firewall for my Unison/Slick mags and was making adjustments on my cowling on my RV-4 Fastback project last night and was just wondering:

Anyone out there running this combo? And would I be better off selling it and just going with oridinary Slick mags? It does take up more room, a little more complexity, and just as soon find out now than after I am mostly finished.

I hope to have my new RV-4 in the air this spring and my Unison system is all new for my O-360/Hartzel setup but just want opinions on what you may think, if you have recent/current experience.

Lastly, can you install and start or is there a black blox that must be used/purchased to get them going. I don't know!

Thanks in advance!

I have the LASAR system

I have the LASAR system installed and it works quite well but it has to be timed and that requires a special timing box. You cannot plug in the sensor-mag and the non-sensor mag and run without setting the timing and it must be done exactly as stated in the timing manual. It is very easy to misinterpret TDC to mean the engine's cylinder #1 top dead center at the end of the compression stroke instead of the TDC light on the box for example.

When the engine was drop shipped from Lycoming in response to order through Van'sthe had a test cell data sheet with the engine but the timing was set approximately 60 degrees ahead of the proper engine rotation location. I flew it that way with near disasterous results. I ordered the LASAR timing box from Van's and the first time I tried to set the timing I came up with the exact same setting as Lycoming had. I knew that was wrong so I went back and did it again precisely following the instructions and it came out perfect. Then the engine performed very well.

My LASAR system prevents hand proping the engine for a start. You must have a good battery with mine but there is a "bush" version that has an impulse coupling in a mag to enable hand proping. Gary Sobek or Unison would be able to tell you about that.

My non-sensor mag failed after 310 hours. For information the engine ran fine on the sensor mag alone. I bought a replacement non-sensor mag from Gary Sobek and it has performed well since installing and retiming.

Bob Axsom

Some numbers for ya

I can give you some hard numbers then you can decide. I had a new ECI IO-360 that I assembled with LASAR mags run on a dyno for its first run. During its run-in of 2 and 2/10ths hrs it was run with short pipes and LASAR system switched off so they ran as standard mags. Toward the end of the run we switched to my Vetterman exhaust and at the very end of the run switched on the LASAR system. Looking at the printout of the run this is what was recorded. @2730 RPM fuel injection only it made 185 hp. With Vetterman exahust added it made 192 hp. Switching on the LASAR mags took the combination to 196 hp. @ 2750 RPM. I was happy with it since it had performed as I had expected. By the way as mentioned above timing is everything and I was told that biggest reason for engine failure with the LASAR system is improper timing. You do NOT set them up like standard mags at all. It is VERY important to use the manual that comes with them, it's easy to do but different.

Great Responses!

Both great responses guys. Makes me feel better about the Unison. Incidently both of my Slicks have the pigtails coming from them going to the 'brain'. I DO NOT have a manual for it, must have lost it???, so will get with Unison about that, also availability of the timing box....but probably won't be attempting a start until the late Feb timeframe. Hope to be flying to Sun n Fun.....

Thanks again, and anymore input/advice would be appreciated.

I've had LASAR on both my carbureted O-360 RV-8 and now my IO-320 powered RV-3. It has worked perfectly on both planes now and provides a noticeable efficiency increase. Virutally all systems these days include the "bush kit" which means there's an impulse coupling on the left mag. I know Bart at Aero Sport Power only installs them with the kit. I had to hand prop my -8 one time and it worked fine, and I've hand propped another RV-6 with it and it started on the second blade.

I think it's important to power the LASAR system with a switchable or pullable breaker because if your plane doesn't cool well there are times you'll want to switch it off for an extended climb. I had to do that with my RV-8 on rare occasion but the -3 cools better so no worries. It will also enable you to go a bit further LOP and thus keep fuel flows lower that without it.

lazer ign timing

I have AN rv7a with lazer ign and am unable to get it timed right. I have set the sensor mag on top dead center and the green lights for the breakers are coming on at about 15 degrees BTC. The book says they should come on at about 25 degrees BTC,,,, Yea, I have the timing box and have read the instructions over and over again.... HELP.... I think I am too close to the trees to see the forest
Dave

Well if it doesn't work there is not much to say.

I found the the instructions are VERY TEDIOUS but necessary. When I got my engine new from Lycoming the timing was off by approx. 65 degrees. when I tried to set it myself with my new LASAR timing box I came up with precisely the same setting as Lycoming had. I knew that was wrong so I went back and did it again with NO COMMON SENSE INTERPRETATIONS. It was hard because my mind kept wanting to jump ahead following the logical path to the objective but I resisted the almost overwhelming urge and it worked perfectly. After you get the sensor mag set right the real logical path becomes clearer. Good luck - if your brain gets in the way it can seem impossible.

Bob Axsom

Not to be negative or anything and I have nothing either for or against the Lasar setup but there have been many failures of this system documented here over the years.

I have a friend that had his break a shaft on the sensor mag within 100hrs. Almost trashed his new engine, lucky for him he got it shut down in time.

He worked a deal with Unison to swap it for two brand new regular mags, plugs and harnesses even trade. He now has over 500 hrs on those mags.

Come on it's a "Little Bit Negative"

Brantel said:

Not to be negative or anything

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Being a Lasar owner who has yet to fly his creation and very nervous about it , I find this very negative.

Laser

NYTOM,,,, don't sweat it, the laser is a good system and you will get a lot of trouble free hours out of it. Beside the 7, I have a 6 with a Laser that I started flying in 2001 and have over 800 trouble free hours on it and there are many others in the same shoes and they love the system. I am sure that the trouble I am having on the seven is just that I am not reading the book right.
Dave

I agree with mtnflyer. I've got almost 300 hours on the Laser mags. They work just fine and even allow me to fly LOP on a carbed O320. But as previously mentioned, timing with the special box takes a little care.

Brantel said:

Not to be negative or anything and I have nothing either for or against the Lasar setup but there have been many failures of this system documented here over the years. Seems there were never any attempts made by them to resolve those issues.

I have a friend that had his break a shaft on the sensor mag within 100hrs. Almost trashed his new engine, lucky for him he got it shut down in time.

He worked a deal with Unison to swap it for two brand new regular mags, plugs and harnesses even trade. He now has over 500 hrs on those mags.

Click to expand...

I have to disagree with the 'never any attempts' comment. Unison made many attempts to get it right (and did). The first 700 hours of flying with LASAR had me go through (4) sets of mags during the 2000-2001 time frame (I was flying 500+ hours/year the first 4 years after my first flight so I became an unexpected test pilot for Joe Logie at Unison...)

None of the failures were ever complete failures and we made every landing safely (all manifested themselves as a fouled plug). Unison tore my mags apart, saw what was going on then improved on the design. The mechanical relay that's the 'bump' in the wire harness was a direct result of moving away from a circuit board mounted relay based on analysis of one of my sets of failed mags.

I'm still flying the 5th set of mags they sent me.....now nearly 2,800..... yes, two thousand eight hundred hours later and they've not missed a beat...over lots of water I might add. Gary Sobek opened them up last just before my Cayman Islands trip in 2009 and did not see any wear in the mechanical mag parts. The engine starts in maybe 2 turns of the prop, and we have averaged < 8gal/hr fuel burn since first flight.

I am a LASAR believer and plan to take them on a month-long trip next year down the Antilles, up Central America and home via the Cayman Islands Rosie

I feel obliged to post this link to the thread discussing my experience. I make no claims about how widespread the problem is, this is my experience ONLY. PMags were not available when I was making my choice and the LASAR was the only ignition system that offered this kind of perceived redundancy. I know of many happy LAZAR users but I switched to PMAGS.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=67819&highlight=lasar+failure

FWIW

All Best

Jeremy Constant

In the interest of giving as much info as possible for people to mull over, my engine is a vertical induction IO 360 Red Gold Mattituck with 9.2:1 pistons spinning a Whirlwind 200RV carbon fiber constant speed prop. The prop is considerably lighter than many C/S props and will undoubtedly have differing vibration characteristics from Hartzel, Catto, Sensenich and all other flavors. It has always been operated within the RPM guidelines published by WhirlWind. It would be interesting to see if there is any correlation between failures and either prop types or compression ratios.

I know the initial poster was mostly interested in timing issues but also asked about experiences. Timing requires patient and methodical adherence to the intructions in the manual, which is written in a way that, in my case, 3 people interpreted differently. I found that being the least experienced person helped me to interpret them in a way that turned out to be correct.

All Best

Jeremy Constant

Feel better now!

Thanks mtnflyer. Spent a lot on this system hoping to have the best ignition out there but somewhere along the way the price went through the roof and shut a lot folks out of the market. Talked with Lasar owners before I bought who said their engines never ran so well and difficult hot starts were a thing of the past. As with any product out there, the people who have had trouble with them will yell the loudest. I don't mind first hand accounts of issues people are having with a product, it's just when you start getting stories of people who had a friend who had a brother with a friend that had such n such problems with a product that it gets crazy. The only warning I heard was about the timing method and to go exactly by the instructions and I would end up a happy camper.

"WOW"

Rosie said:

I am a LASAR believer and plan to take them on a month-long trip next year down the Antilles, up Central America and home via the Cayman Islands Rosie

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Holy **** Rosie you don't fool around do you. I've been following your bi annual trips for years hoping to maybe join you on one but by the time I get flying you'll probably be making trips to Austraila.

NYTOM said:

Being a Lasar owner who has yet to fly his creation and very nervous about it , I find this very negative.

Click to expand...

NYTOM said:

Thanks mtnflyer. Spent a lot on this system hoping to have the best ignition out there but somewhere along the way the price went through the roof and shut a lot folks out of the market. Talked with Lasar owners before I bought who said their engines never ran so well and difficult hot starts were a thing of the past. As with any product out there, the people who have had trouble with them will yell the loudest. I don't mind first hand accounts of issues people are having with a product, it's just when you start getting stories of people who had a friend who had a brother with a friend that had such n such problems with a product that it gets crazy. The only warning I heard was about the timing method and to go exactly by the instructions and I would end up a happy camper.

Click to expand...

Hey, someone asked and so I provided my first hand experience. I was there on the field the day my friend's system let go. I helped him take the thing off and personally witnessed the broken shaft.

There are many more reports of broken shafts and here is one thread:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=67819&highlight=lasar+failure

You make up your own mind but realize there have been some serious issues in the past with this system.

So have their been some serious issues in the past with P-mags but I now fly behind a P-mag because I know those issues have been addressed. I am sure the same goes for those that fly behind the Lightspeed units.

Rosie said:

I have to disagree with the 'never any attempts' comment.

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Should have said that "I am not aware of any attempts". I retract my original statement and have edited that post.

As far as I know, they were in complete denial about the issues with the shaft breaking even though there are many reports and pictures of broken shafts all over the forums. Now granted I have no idea if the shaft issues were limited to a certain batch or range of serial numbers or ???. Could have been a short term issue with materials or something. Who knows???

I have two LASAR timing boxes complete if anyone needs one.
[email protected]

I've got some leftovers too from my O-360 installation. Control box, harness, warning light, interface cable.... A few expensive leftovers still in the hangar from the day after the third failure when I finally gave up and installed new Slicks. It had been a long and very unhappy tale for me, but on the other hand, others have had good luck.

Timing Instructions ?

I have checked my timing and seems to be set properly, but, I agree that the instructions are not easy to follow.

Does anyone want to offer any tips that you use when checking and setting the timing?

Jim

LASAR 500 hour inspection requirements

I have 478 hours on my LASAR system at present and it has performed as advertised. My last contact with Champion indicated is was pretty expensive for them to tear down inspect and replace as necessary. Any experience out there with inspections/repairs to the Lasar mags? I was told the most critical thing was to get the Impulse coupler (Called the Bush Mod) inspected as it is on the internal engine side of the housing and if it comes apart, it can spread metal all through the engine and some of the clearances are critical on the coupler.
I believe it is a standard Coupler and would like to just get it inspected and repaired as necessary and leave the rest of the mag alone as long as they are working fine or just have someone who repairs Mags inspect the hardware and leave the electronics as is.
Any inputs appreciated.