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You can look, but please don't touch

P

PaigeHoffart

Well Known Member
So I stop by the tent at HBC this afternoon and I see a couple of guys checking out my friend's airplane...

One guy starts pawing the wingtip, not cool, but I'm not surprised.

Then I see him checking the security of the wingtipn camera mount...are you serious?

Finally he decides it would be a good idea to open the wingtip locker to take a closer look:eek:

So, I go over and have a short talk with him. The first thing he says is "Sorry is this your plane?" I let him know it was a friend's and I didn't think my friend would appreciate it. Then he tells me he's a builder trying to get ideas. I've seen that kind of behavior from the general public, but from a pilot? A builder?

Paige
 
I actually thought about buying a sticker like you see at car shows. "Look but don't touch." Never did because unfortunately I don't think it would work.

People these days....

Mark
 
What is it about airplanes that people think they're gym equipment? I have seen mothers hoist their kids up onto a wing so they can crawl around, sometimes just so mom doesn't have to hold the little tyke any more. Some have entered the cockpit to take a picture. Be glad RV's are metal - people seem to be just fascinated with fabric. I can't count how many times I've returned to the Hiperbipe to find people trying to poke their fingers through the fuselage. "Hey Marv, look at how strong this stuff is!..."

Sometimes airplanes and people don't belong together!
 
Toobuilder said:
What is it about airplanes that people think they're gym equipment?
Click to expand...

I've had many things happen at air shows, but I had a CH-47 on static display once and I walked around the front of the aircraft to find a Dad hoisting his boy up to hang from one of the pitot tubes! I politely but firmly advised Mr. Dad that it was not gym equipment and they needed to stop that immediately. He grabbed he kid down but he then he says that it's not going to hurt it.

Really? So Dad, what is that thing your kid was hanging from?

"A machine gun"

Uh - NO. Like that would have been better???

It is really surprising that you would have a builder/pilot doing that sort of thing though.
 
I've found that builders, or wanna be builders, are some of the worst people when it comes to taking liberties with someone else's airplane. All manner of nice people and MORONS at Oshkosh.

Roberta:rolleyes:
 
Cars vs. planes

I'd love to crack the code on this one, too. I wonder if an occasional Rob Reider PA announcement would help at OSH.

I recently attended a hot rod and classic car show, and noticed that the attendees respectfully kept their hands off of the show cars. I've never figured out why folks don't treat our delicate aircraft with the same respect. I can only assume they don't know any better.

Like others, I've seen some pretty stupid things at air shows recently: kids jumping on a Cherokee wingtip (with the father standing by), swinging from pitot tubes, sliding down elevators, sitting in aircraft and pushing buttons, pulling props through, poking fabric, yanking on antennae... The list goes on.

I've tried the "don't touch" signs in the past and think they may be moderately effective, especially if they're polite and witty. A friend came up with this clever one (so please don't steal it): "Touching an airplane never killed anyone, but why risk it?"
 
T34

I caught a couple allowing there 3 to 4 year old son to run back and forth on top of a T34's wing at the Thomasville fly-in last year. I pointed out to them the same things you all have done......it appeared I made an enemy for life.

I also caught a couple allowing a 3 to 4 year old boy to walk all over the wheel pants on a beautiful Cessna 172 at the Marianna fly-in this year. I picked the kid up off the wheel pant and sat him on the ground and made my remarks to the parents as any airplane owner should. The mother quickly replied "it's fine, the airplane belongs to us".

Thirdly, I had my airplane at a local fly-in and parents did not seem to care that their children climbed on the wing even with me sitting there. I caught one kid trying to do chin-ups on the elevator (I had it seat belted in the up position). Geeez.

Too much stress for me............I decided to not participate anymore. I have too much time and money invested in the airplane to walk away from it and assume that sight seers will respect it as I do. I can't imagine touching someones airplane without their permission.
 
Me Too!!

DEWATSON said:
Too much stress for me............I decided to not participate anymore. I have too much time and money invested in the airplane to walk away from it and assume that sight seers will respect it as I do. I can't imagine touching someones airplane without their permission.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly David. I want to fly 34CB to Osh; but I'm never going to do it for all the above incidents. I've seen too many over the years.
"Too much stress for me.."
Good luck to all the participants there now.
 
Unbelievable

I once took a Hawg to an airshow. I had kids (3 at a time once) doing chinups on the VHF homing ant. and folks touching, pulling, opening everything they could. I spent 100% of my time telling folks to stop. When I got ready to leave, I found drink cans in the engines, bubble gum all over the jet and someone stole the aircraft forms out of the wheel well. I never went to another airshow that didn't cordon off the aircraft. Just not worth it.
 
Well... there's always a variation of that infamous decal that Harley riders like to put on their bikes that says, (paraphrased) "If you value your life as much as I value this bike then don't touch it". But then we'd all have to start dressing like 1%'ers at Oshkosh to make the decal believable to the public :rolleyes:
 
A few years back at the Miramar Air Show I even brought my own orange cones and yellow rope to encircle my airplane. That didn't stop the crowd. On my RV-12 at Sun-n-Fun in 2012, there is a dent on top of the wing. Some guy had dropped his camera on the wing.
 
I've seen more damage from a backpack, purse and camera at shows then done by people....and when you point it out to the owner, they NEVER seem to think it's a bid deal since they "didn't know" or "didn't mean to". What if I knocked over their 2 year old and claimed I "didn't know" or "didn't mean to"? :p
 
Airshow planners can think about small signs on posts near the entrance and throughout the airshow that say, "Please Do Not Touch The Airplanes"? I'm talking lots of small signs.

It would be a fairly cheap way to keep it on the top of peoples minds as they walk around the show. Might not help, but at least it will have been posted.

I think I have seen a few signs on planes saying look but don't touch or something to that nature. Maybe those were the "please judge me" signs I saw at Arlington at some point.

Thx
 
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Seen it all

The worse one however was the pilot who decided to start his airplane without pulling it out of the line with mine behind it.

I ran up.. after he had it started and forced him to shut down.. Then we had words.

He claimed his airplane was too heavy to move out of theline before he hit the starter...

Frank
 
These stories make me think I'm never going to attend one. I (like all of you) have put too much time, money and effort into my plane for some yahoo to damage it.
 
Mine was showing up to my plane after walking around an airshow and seeing a mother changing her baby's diapers on the horizontal stab of my Cessna 170B. :mad:

She was polite when I told her that she shouldn't have done that, but there was no way I could kick her off until she finished. It's just a plane and not a special one at that, but I just don't understand how/why they would think that's ok.

I wouldn't even do that on someone's car trunk lid!
 
Don't touch!

Well, here is one from the other side. I was at SNF this year and a gorgeous new RV7 pulled up and the owner was wiping it off. I went up to take a look and compliment him profusely on what a beauty it was. When I stepped up behind the wing to look at the panel I put my left hand on the canopy rail and the guy started yelling. I told him I was an RV owner and he said that in that case I should know better. I carefully backed away and left. He was right of course and I should not have touched his plane. However, I hope he brought ropes and cones or that guy was going to be one miserable dude for the rest of the event!
 
While I have not yet had the pleasure of putting a plane on display, Bruce Swayze had a sign in his shop that I up-sized, with the intent of taking it with me when I do go to shows.

2011-03-22%252010.12.55-1.jpg


It so happens to be a real street sign blank and is reflective where needed.

2011-03-22%252010.12.42-1.jpg


The visitors to my shop sure get the hint! ;)
 
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Polished airplane

My first airplane was a polished RV-8 and a magnet for people and pilots in many cases, to paw all over the shiny surface.
One I remember brushed his hand over the freshly polished wing, all the while complimenting me on the brilliant aluminum surface. After he noticed the fresh scratch marks he proceeded to use his shirt sleeve to try and polish it out :( yikes...
The whole subject is a bit of a dilemma, on one hand trying to get people interested in airplanes and on the other hand trying to keep them at arms length to prevent the tire kickers from doing damage.
 
Might need to look at this a little different

I've been monitoring this thread and I would like to offer an alternate POV that if embraced may reduce some folk's stress level. BLUF, an airplane is a tool. We use it to get somewhere. Either physically, mentally or both. We also use it as a catalyst to create/improve relationships. A tool is going to show use. That brand new look is the price you pay for using the it and even though it doesn't look brand new, it is still perfectly functional. Sometimes it is even better. Remember scars are tattoos with a story. On the other hand, abusing or breaking a tool does cause lost of use. Bottom line here, there is a big difference between someone touching your airplane and breaking your airplane. It will fly fine with a smudge or small scratch. Don't sweat the small stuff and use your tool (sts) the way it was intended. It was not built just to look at. It was built to fly.
 
I agree, but in my case (woman using my horizontal stab as a changing table) the airworthiness of my old airplane was what I was concerned about.

A little poop or some scratches were the least of my worries :D
 
At some point I will have a finished RV-7, painted and flying. And at some point I'll probably be somewhere that some of you will also be. Consider this my pre-emptive, blanket permission to ogle, gawk, touch and otherwise paw at my airplane in a responsible, adult manner (as in, just don't scratch or break anything and keep yer mitts off the avionics). I won't yell at you for touching a wingtip or resting your hand on the canopy rail.

:)
 
abuse

Undisciplined children running up and down the top side of the wing or doing chin ups on the elevator just isn't acceptable. I agree that my airplane will show wear as it is slowly used up. No problem with that, but you don't see parents allowing children to jump up and down on the hood of show cars ......any cars for that matter. It's the undisciplined abuse of the airplanes that I dislike. The smudges and touching; even a "want to be" builder exploring the airplane is no real bother. I encourage that and answer all the questions I can. Unacceptable abuse by undisciplined children has driven me away from "public" fly-ins. It's just beyond me how people these days have no respect for other people's property.

OK, I'm done fussing about it. On to more important things.
 
Agreed. The comparative "tank like" show car gets more respect than the fragile aircraft. As if scratches on a car's paint job are somehow worse than structural damage to an aircraft.
 
I had a friend that had his RV in the Homebuilder's Pavalion for a presentation this week. They couldn't get it out of the building after the presentation, so they agreed to let it sit and go have lunch.

When he returned from lunch, he found two men sitting in the plane playing with the controls and knobs on the panel. These men didn't think twice about getting into an aircraft that they had no idea who owned it and why it was parked where is was.

It's ironic in that who would do the same in a car parked at the mall?
 
cguarino said:
I've been monitoring this thread and I would like to offer an alternate POV that if embraced may reduce some folk's stress level. BLUF, an airplane is a tool. We use it to get somewhere. Either physically, mentally or both. We also use it as a catalyst to create/improve relationships. A tool is going to show use. That brand new look is the price you pay for using the it and even though it doesn't look brand new, it is still perfectly functional. Sometimes it is even better. Remember scars are tattoos with a story. On the other hand, abusing or breaking a tool does cause lost of use. Bottom line here, there is a big difference between someone touching your airplane and breaking your airplane. It will fly fine with a smudge or small scratch. Don't sweat the small stuff and use your tool (sts) the way it was intended. It was not built just to look at. It was built to fly.
Click to expand...

You can treat yours however you want, others treat them like the art that they are, and invest their time and money to create such things.

My hangar mate spent nearly $20K on his paint job, he crafted a beautiful airplane, he is meticulous in keeping it beautiful. Woe be the individual whose kid scratches it at an airshow or fly-in, and if it were me and you gave me this excuse in person.... we'd have serious problems.
 
cguarino said:
I've been monitoring this thread and I would like to offer an alternate POV that if embraced may reduce some folk's stress level. BLUF, an airplane is a tool. We use it to get somewhere. Either physically, mentally or both. We also use it as a catalyst to create/improve relationships. A tool is going to show use. That brand new look is the price you pay for using the it and even though it doesn't look brand new, it is still perfectly functional. Sometimes it is even better. Remember scars are tattoos with a story. On the other hand, abusing or breaking a tool does cause lost of use. Bottom line here, there is a big difference between someone touching your airplane and breaking your airplane. It will fly fine with a smudge or small scratch. Don't sweat the small stuff and use your tool (sts) the way it was intended. It was not built just to look at. It was built to fly.
Click to expand...

I didn't build this tool to let somebody else break it. There will be serious problems and probably newspaper headlines if that happens to my bird.
 
Reading this thread...and being someone who is getting real close to having my pride and joy on display at some fly-in in the future, I was cringing at these stories and feel for you all.

Let me offer an opposing view. Lets not forget the really cool thing about the aviation world in general is its accessibility. I LOVE the fact that I have access to multi-million dollar aircraft at almost every airshow I've been to unless its military...and RV's too. I can walk up to almost all of them and take a closer look. Tell me one other instance where you can do that with high dollar toys? Maybe a car show...but thats about it...and most of those cars dont cost nearly as much as my airplane so its not really the same. If there was a $125,000+ sports car parked anywhere, it would most likely be roped off, not accessible to the public.

The general public already looks at aircraft owners as elitist and rich. We all know that is far from the truth for many of us. If we start roping off our airplanes...what message will we send? Most likely just reinforce what they already think, and certainly not win us any friends. And what about the kids that are tickled to death to see a real live flying machine up close? I was that kid...and still am. The pilot community is dying off...lets not hit the accellerator--lets keep the doors open as much as we can.

Just my .02...now of course when that woman is changing her kid on MY HS...I may change my mind!! :) I guess the compromise is trying to get people to behave responsibly around our aircraft...I realize that is probably easier said than done. Anyway, food for thought...
 
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airguy said:
I didn't build this tool to let somebody else break it.
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Perfectly said!

Quote in your signature : Building an off-plan 9A with too much fuel and too much HP. Should drop dead any minute now.

That is some funny stuff!:D
 
Evil Public

I guess we all have our story. Mine was attending a public air show in my Super Decathlon. Airplanes were roped off when I arrived so I left mine unattended thinking that was the CONOPs. When I returned I was horrified to see that the crowd had swarmed around the airplanes and there was a father, luckily a skinny dude, sitting on my wheel pant while his ~3 yr old son was holding onto the wing brace, jumping up and down on the aft half of the wheel pant, next to him! When confronted, his attitude nearly earned him an impromptu martial arts lesson. The inboard caliper cover was cracked and the rivnuts were loose in the fiberglass. I fantasized for future air shows hanging signs to the effect of: "Damaging my airplane could get me killed. I'm legal to use deadly force to protect my life!" Or more recently, "George Zimmerman is my co-pilot" Unfortunately, belligerants don't believe they are causing harm. It's looking more and more like "World War Z" out there.
Dang, I'm gettin' old.
 
Sig600 said:
You can treat yours however you want, others treat them like the art that they are, and invest their time and money to create such things.

My hangar mate spent nearly $20K on his paint job, he crafted a beautiful airplane, he is meticulous in keeping it beautiful. Woe be the individual whose kid scratches it at an airshow or fly-in, and if it were me and you gave me this excuse in person.... we'd have serious problems.
Click to expand...

It's not an excuse to be used by the offender but the mindset of the owner I'm talking about. DaleB gets it.
 
Security will help

I was at OSH a number of years ago, watching the airshow, when I heard this terrible banging on the side of my RV. I nearly jumped out of my skin, as I was sitting on the other side leaning against it. I asked the "gentlemen" what he thought he was doing and he said he wanted to see what it was made out of. I told him he should consider asking first. He proceeded to tell me in no uncertain terms that I shouldn't bring my airplane to the show. He was a big, burly biker type with an attitude and I certainly didn't care to get into a confrontation with him so I proceeded to have security escort him OFF of the field. Yes, security will do that.
BTW, I'm one who actually lets kids sit in my airplanes while parents take pictures. It helps with the control. :) I also wish someone whould have let me do that when I was a kid.
I agree with the comments about not being perceived as elitist airplane owners, and there is a balance.

Vic
 
cguarino said:
It's not an excuse to be used by the offender but the mindset of the owner I'm talking about. DaleB gets it.
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Good for Dale. If he wants to let people crawl all over his airplane, that's awesome. What you're telling me is if I want people to respect my airplane (lawn, car, house, whatever), I have a problem.

If I want you to stay the **** off of my airplane, you should respect that too, and this should be the going in assumption everyone should have.

Respect what isn't yours, treat your own stuff like "tools."
 
cguarino said:
It's not an excuse to be used by the offender but the mindset of the owner I'm talking about. DaleB gets it.
Click to expand...

So the "owner" should change mindset to allow people to paw all over his stuff? Heck, might as well leave the keys in the car in case someone needs to use it...

Sorry, I keep my hands off other peoples stuff, and I expect no less from anyone else.
 
cguarino said:
It's not an excuse to be used by the offender but the mindset of the owner I'm talking about. DaleB gets it.
Click to expand...

Disagree completely:

I was at OSH 5 years ago- tied down in home builders parking when someone wrote with there finger on my RV6A: .... "This is JunK" :eek:
I think this thread talks about the minority of individuals that are visiting airshows. I didn't see this behavior 10-20 years ago in OSH. I believe this disrespectful crowd is getting proportionally larger. But my mindset and expectations will not change with this new reality...
 
Sig600 said:
Good for Dale. If he wants to let people crawl all over his airplane, that's awesome. What you're telling me is if I want people to respect my airplane (lawn, car, house, whatever), I have a problem.

If I want you to stay the **** off of my airplane, you should respect that too, and this should be the going in assumption everyone should have.

Respect what isn't yours, treat your own stuff like "tools."
Click to expand...
You either misunderstood (completely) or didn't see what I wrote. Let me reiterate...
Consider this my pre-emptive, blanket permission to ogle, gawk, touch and otherwise paw at my airplane in a responsible, adult manner (as in, just don't scratch or break anything and keep yer mitts off the avionics). I won't yell at you for touching a wingtip or resting your hand on the canopy rail.
Click to expand...
Note that this was posted on VAF, not on a big sign hung on the prop at an airshow. That sign would say something more like, "Feel free to look but DO NOT TOUCH THE AIRCRAFT."

Now, I personally don't touch other peoples' airplanes unless given permission to do so... but if you, a pilot and aircraft owner who knows what you're doing and how to not muck things up, want to touch my airplane I'm not going to go ballistic.

If you're going to use it as a changing table or playground equipment, sit on the wing, stand on the wheel pants, jump up and down, fiddle with the knobs, rap on it with the rim of your monocle, take a belt sander to it or any other such idiotic behavior, well, then obviously we're going to have a problem to resolve.

I know that some people just don't want anyone else touching their toys. I can understand that, and I act accordingly. I also understand that if you're going to park your toy in the middle of a great huddled sweaty mass of people who don't understand it, it would be a good idea to either rope it off or be there (or both) to keep their cotton pickin' hands (and offspring) off of it. The event organizers SHOULD have made it crystal clear to attendees that they are not to touch anything, but I guess that doesn't happen, I dunno.

This problem is not unique to airplanes. This comes from someone who regularly deals with the exact same issue with a Harley and a nicely restored '55 Vespa. For some reason, people seem to instinctively know to keep their hands off the Harley. Maybe pilots need to start wearing black leather and do-rags and drinking more bourbon.

:)
 
I agree with Dale.

Woe to the man/women/child that fu#%$ with my plane, wherever it is, either at a fly-in or at my home airport.

One wouldn't run their fried dough covered hands, change their baby's diapers, sit on or otherwise molest a hot rod or motorcycle at a car show, then what gives them the right mistreat an airplane and risk the lives of its passengers??
I don't care who they are; pregnant women about to give birth, make-a-wish winner that just wanted to bend aluminum one last time or DHS drug sniffing labradoodles clawing over my Oregon aero seats...

I had a talk with one of the FedEx pilots of the airbus 300 at the show, he said they used to allow people to sit in the flight deck but at one show they found many of the breakers pulled, switches "switched", a seat cushion stolen, documents missing... and trash in the engines and brakes. Now no more visitors in the cockpit and they have maintenance staff taking shifts watching the ogling public.

Its not an argument, to not bring your plane to fly-ins or shows..
Public, don't go to a show if you're going to abuse the planes. Period.
 
As for contributing war stories, I had a 2-3 yo abuse my TED transponder antenna at a fly-in. He was with mom, dad and brother walking down the line of airplanes parked on the ramp. I was maybe 50 feet away and saw the whole thing unfold but helpless to be able to stop it as I was too far away to even yell at the kid. The 2 yo walked up to my plane along with his older brother (maybe 5 or 6 yo). Mom and dad had their back to the kids and were 20-30 feet away oblivious to what their two angels were doing. The 2 yo proceeded to walk up to the right side of the fuselage where his eyeballs were about level with the bottom of the firewall. He spotted the antenna, walked over to it and with his palm facing up proceeded to "whack" the antenna as hard as he could 3 or 4 times. I have no idea what he thought he was doing. Most likely he did not know either. The problem was mom and dad had absolutely no care in the world about what their kids were doing. Luckily he did not damage the antenna but it was just a fluke that his forceful blows did not break the antenna.

On the other hand, I did observe breakage of a dragonfly parked next to me at a fly in. I watched a young boy walk up to the trailing edge of the wing where there was a tab mounted on two descending arms with a small horizontal airfoil attached on the ends of the arms. The 3 or 4 yo boy walked over placed his foot on the airfoil and stepped on it. It never even began to support the weight of the kid. One of the arms snapped off and the airfoil was left to dangle by the remaining attachment of the other arm. Again I was too far away to prevent the boy from his act before it occurred. I tried to find the owner of the plane but never did. About a year or so later I came upon that plane at another airport. Again the pilot was not around but I noticed he had a new tab fabricated so I was glad to see the damage was repaired.
 
The Dragonfly piece you are talking about is made of balsa wood, and most builders learned to carry a spare with them. We called them "Sparrow strainers"

img_2550.jpg
 
As for Osh, last year during my first trip there, many old timers gave me a warning...."Most builders will be out of here before Saturday, a different crowd shows up on Saturday/Sunday and they won't respect your plane." they said....

That being said, I left last year early Saturday morning and this year early Thursday morning.

Not once last year or this year did I see anyone disrespect my airplane. Most builders or builder wanna be folks were very cautious around my plane.

Where I have received damage is during the public open house/fly-ins in our local area. About 3 months after getting my plane painted, a woman sat her kid down on my wingtip and cracked the glass. I did not see it happen...a friend told me what happened later after they asked her to get the kid off my wing.
 
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Not only the masses, but those that should know better

I was getting ready to depart about 5 years ago from RV parking at about 0700 and I had started up since the flaggers were nowhere to be found at that time. All of a sudden one of the scooter guys comes zooming up behind the left wing, slams on the brake, and skids on the somewhat wet grass, leaving a nice little scuff on the left side. Jeeze....
 
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