Very sad how times have changed..

When I was a kid growing up in Boca Raton, FL, in the '60's I used to hang out at the airport almost every weekend. There were no fences, and there was always a number of kids running around, loving everything about aviation. We'd wash airplanes for rides. We'd sweep hangars for rides.

The hangars were full, and every Saturday and Sunday it seems most were open and someone was always doing something, ready for a Coke and hangar talk. Everyone knew everyone. Sandy, who ran the FBO, always had a smile and a joke. One of my fondest memories was of a paraplegic gentleman that had an Ercoupe, I believe his name was Tom. He had a small hoist that would lift him from his wheel chair into his plane. He'd always need a bit of a hand, and there was always one of us around to help him out. Tom loved to fly and he wasn't going to let a "minor", as he would say, problem from a car accident stop him!

The paved tie downs were full, and there were planes tied down in the dirt and weeds. Taylorcrafts, 140's and 150's, Champs and Chiefs, a slew of Cubs and some Cherokee's. My Dad's Aeronca 7AC Champ was tied down there, and I remember sometimes wondering if the A65 was powerful enough to taxi through the soft South Florida sugar sand. (BTW, that same plane is still flying, living in NC).

There was a Super Connie out next to the runway, and a T6 next to one of the hangars. After Dad sold the Champ he bought a Bo and he got upgraded to a paved spot! It was tied down next to the Texan, and I used to marvel at the size of that plane. Then I'd walk out and circle the Connie. Now THAT was a big plane!! One of the most beautiful ever designed...

4 - 22, no tower, easy flying, always busy, always something going on. I soloed there in the Champ, and the back of my shirt, along with a hundred others, hung gloriously on the FBO wall.

My, how things have changed...

Today I hangar my plane at Palatka, FL, 28J. I am usually there on Saturday and Sunday mornings. I fly a bit and work on the plane a bit. It seems like I am the only one around. There are a couple of regulars in the FBO, but rarely are there any other hangar doors open. I drive around the airport and see row after row of closed doors.

There are perhaps a half-dozen planes tied down on the tarmac. The majority of the weekend activity at the airport comes from the jump school on the east end of the field, the ER guys coming over from Daytona to practice, and planes coming in for gas.

Compared to 40 years ago, it's a ghost town. The airport has a yearly Fly-In that attracts a lot of people for one day, but that doesn't seem to generate any lasting interest in aviation, at least not from what I can see.

I'm very lucky to belong to Dreamland Squadron about 10 miles north at Haller Airpark, so there is usually something going on up there. We have a great and active EAA chapter, and a superb meeting location. But I sure wish that there was more interest and activity at my little airport.

I belong to AOPA and EAA, and recently joined the Recreational Aviation Foundation (http://www.theraf.org). I think that they all would like to see busy airports again, and are working hard to make that happen.

I sure wish it was like the good ole days. Just sayin...

My opinion: It will not get better.

At my airport there are probably more hangars open with non-aircraft activity (car repair, carpentry, etc) than for aircraft.

Oh Palatka! Sweet place! I've been there twice. There was some activity. Jumper guy was hauling paratroopers up every 15 minutes or so. There were couple other planes in the pattern. I've seen at least a dozen during my one hour stay.






I didn't see you Chris






I think there nothing wrong with times and things and locations. WE are the ones who have changed. Remember when we were kids the trees were taller, grass greener and we didn't care about the news It may not look better for us but for young generation its the same. Kids are still there, at the same airport on the weekends, we just can not (or do not want) to see it. Our perception of usual things is permanently altered.

how times have changed..

Chris,
I agree with your post, (sad.) Punta-Gorda, Fl was my home with the same. We went back there a few years ago to see an empty concrete runway with no people around. We are on the West coast now, (Oregon.) Same story here with the exception of RV's. My little rural town has 15 planes tied down on the tarmak. The state capitol airport, KSLE, has only 2 planes tied down and many empty hangers, (sad.) 15 and 20 years ago there was waiting lists for hangers and many planes tied down. This is a large commercial jet capable with two mile long runways that only has 2 general avaition planes tied down. Also, the airport general aviation maintenance facility shut down last month. They told me that their customers have been selling their airplanes. Again, sad. Times are sure changing. With fences securing airports these days, kids are not able to go to the airport and talk with the aircraft owners like when we were kids. They don't even have access.

Thankfully the RV community is alive and active in the Pacific Northwest and usually willing to give rides to anyone interested. I think the RV community has kept general aviation alive here.

Times are changing. I gave a first plane ride to a young man/family friend and let him get some stick time, straight and level and turns. I was amazed how well he did for his first time. He claimed it was due to his experience with video games of flying. Times are changing. So is the price of fuel!

Were you there last weekend????

If I recall correctly, the RV-6 in that photo was there last Sat and Sun. On Sat the guy was walking from his plane to the FBO and I stopped him to talk RV. He was from MI, down visiting family.

I flew Sat AM and Sun AM. I'm usually at at the airport until about noon. I don't recall seeing your plane. Mine is in hangar 25.

But, regarding your post. Yes, I have changed, in many ways. But not my love for airplanes and aviation. And there ARE NOT kids at Palatka on weekends, at least not when I am there or on a regular basis. Twice in the last two years the guy in the hangar behind me has had a groups of Boy Scouts out. But that is it. I have seen people outside the fence and gone to ask them in and see if they wanted to see the airplanes. They seem to be only interested in the jumpers.

PLEASE, next time you are in my area let me know!!

ccsmith51 said:

PLEASE, next time you are in my area let me know!!

Click to expand...

I will. We'll get a good brew and twist those good times back

Chris,

Everything changes with time; some for better, some for worse. I'd love to see the airports more active, too and if there were kids willing to wash a plane to get a ride, I'd do it (preferably with the parents okay).

I wonder why airports have slid in popularity, too. The fences we have now can't help but I don't think the government that put the fences up can actually change deeply held feelings, which makes me why more people don't feel as deeply about flying as most of us. Baseball parks had/have fences around them and kids still love the game. It's more than the fence.

I hear cost raised constantly and at $6/gallon for fuel I fly less than I did at $2/gallon. It's a problem but it isn't a show stopper. I don't think the issue is just financial. I think times are different and somehow flying doesn't hold promise of adventure or joy that it once did when it was newer. I think a few people (some of them probably here) can change this. It takes a few "spark plugs" in the community to create that feeling. There's a great book on the topic of change called "The Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell.

But there's more different than just fences and cost. I suspect the great number of people involved in aviation after WWII and the plethora of skills from mechanic to pilot, along with an economy that could support personal flying and the "aura" for lack of a better word around the role aviation played in WWII just gave flying a bigger attraction.

Two opinions I can't prove but I'm pretty sure about are; 1. the cost of flying isn't a deal breaker nearly as much as some of the FAA rules, and 2.the Young Eagles program, as well intended as it is, won't create enough new pilots to support the next generation of aviation at the same level we operate on now.

I think it's way over due for a drivers license to replace the third class medical and for there to be something akin to a Repairman's Certificate to let certificated aircraft owners do their own annuals and install equipment. There's more, and I do what I can - including flying YE when I can. At the last function I think we only had about 2 YE for every plane that showed up. Our chapter didn't give away many free rides. That shows me cost and rules are not the only part of the puzzle that's not working - the kids don't have to face either and they're not coming out.

Nuts.

When I was a kid the airport was 10 miles away and I never went there. I made first plastic models, then balsa wood U-control and eventually R/C models. My dad was the sole breadwinner and with 4 kids and my mom to support, even if he had wanted to fly, he could not have afforded it. Our house had 3 bedrooms, one bathroom, a floor furnace, no A/C, and cars that broke down regularly. Our family dentist didn't use novacaine.

I now have a 4 bedroom 3 bath home. I have one airplane (an Aircoupe) and am building an RV. The RV will have state-of-the-art glass displays, Vertical Power VP-200 for automated controls, autopilot, etc etc.

Life is a d*** sight better for me, materially, than for my parents. It's a great time to live and it will generally be better for future generations. Different for sure! But I don't pine for the old days and getting cavities filled without novacaine.

Living the old days in AK.

We have a Build A Plane program in Talkeetna. This has involved all the buisnesses and most of the private pilots in our community with our youth.
The airport has a few low wood fences, and are to protect the tourists from getting hurt. Anyone determined can walk anywhere on the airport, but will usually be challenged by a friendly yet concerned face. This is as I think it should be.
Off the road system, airports are a gateway to anyplace else. It is not uncomon to see high school basketball teams being ferried for overnights at the neighboring high school gym, or what appears to be an outside wearhouse for Wallmart until all the cargo is delivered via 4 wheeler to the stores and Post Office.
There are at least five private strips within 15 miles of my house, (and airstrip) probably more.
The only down side to living up here for me, is the cold and dark of mid winter. It just drags on to long. If it weren't for that, this would be a complete paradise.

I can't remember ever not being fascinated with airplanes and flying. I'm not sure from where the attraction came because neither of my parents had ever been flying until I took them.

I was fortunate to learn at Hanover, VA which at the time was run by "Fuzzzo" (the middle Z is silent) and his wife Linda. Fuzzzo was a retired Air Force pilot and his flight school was everything I had dreamed. He had numerous planes for rent and great instructors. The airport was open every day but Christmas although people would show up on Christmas as well and Fuzzzo would be there. Even when not flying I would hang out with the other "fence farters" and hangar fly. I joined the CAP as well to spend even more time around pilots/planes. Fuzzzo was run out by the county when they tried to rework the contract. The planes were sold off and it was never the same.

Fortunately, I found the Dreamland Squadron when I moved to Jax, FL. 7FL4 is much closer to my home than Keystone Heights where I keep the Cessna. I drive by 7FL4 as often as I can and drive anyone with an open hangar door crazy. We flew over 60 YE last weekend. Days like those encourage me that another generation of pilots is just behind us and will enjoy building/flying the same as us.

Buggsy2 said:

it will generally be better for future generations. Different for sure!.

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It already isn't better and they are in hock up to their ears. More are moving home, more can't find a job, more will never have a plane. But wishfull thinking is always nice.....got us where we are recently.

Trying to live in the past...

I missed out on those days. I am part of the generation that is not going to the airport, washing planes, listening to stories. I wish thats the way it was.

If you were to show up at Arlington on a nice Saturday, you would see a decent amount of activity by todays standards. There are guys flying in for the hundred dollar hamburger, Cessnas doing bounce and go's, guys gathered around a hangar doing a formation flight briefing. Oh yeah... and my truck. I will show up with no plan, enough money for lunch, and a "livin' in the past" attitude. There are a couple guys that seem to enjoy telling me their stories and I am more than happy to listen. If they happen to offer a ride, too .

I wish this was normal. Going to the airport with nothing to do should be a common activity. I sure enjoy it.

Arlington

Arlington is one airport that has activity of several types. You are lucky to be close to this airport. I received a runner up, grand champion award there at an EAA airshow years ago. Love Arlington.

I, too, grew up in the era of fun aviation. I looked forward to every Thursday afternoons when we made the 20 mile trip in the '52 Studebaker truck to the Rising Sun CAP meeting. Kids were everywhere. And planes.

Even 20 years ago there were some here at OVO. Two years ago, not so.

Fast forward to this weekend. We had 16 adults come to OVO TO SEE THE KIDS! Eight guys flew up from Chapter 21 in Evansville on Saturday. An equal number of 99s came today. It is so different to see 80 year old pilots questioning these kids, and the kids telling the stories.

Don't fault Young Eagles for not magically making thousands of kids suddenly decide to become pilots! They aren't blind; they see the obstacles they face. They need our help. Build a Plane is a good program. Of course, I believe we have done better, but I have to feel that way. In truth, there are many ways to get kids into aviation. Building an RV-12 in an Eagle's Nest Project is just one. Over 50% of the kids in it will get at least a SP license. I am proud of that.

I didn't find it hard to locate over a dozen kids interested in building an airplane, and I would guess our situation was not unique. I would think it could be done at one Young Eagle rally. We drew from just one Engineering class at high school.

How about offering a scholarship for a PPL to a graduating senior? Lots of you could afford that. Offer a free flight lesson at the very least. Recruit a group and help them take Sporty's ground school. I guess what I am saying is quit complaining and do something. I doubt it will be wrong, and I bet it will succeed. End of rant.

Bob

Things have changed...

Let's face it, things Really have changed.

Aviation and aerospace are no longer leading edge activities. I remember where i was when Glenn was orbiting the planet (building a model airplane listening to the broadcast). I remember where i was when the LEM landed on the moon (Willowgrove NAS at the model airplane NATS). My model mentor turned me on to some free flying lessons at 16. Here I was on my own but the hook had been set... Gliders, glider racing, airplane ownership, building followed. But flying still felt fresh, hot, leading edge. It just isn't any more, not for most people.

And now there are so many alternatives, real and virtual. I missed out on most of them, don't play computer games, no extreme sports, etc. But who cares, I fly a '10 knowing that a select few will follow. Everything is a niche activity these days.

But it is painful watching airports and airplanes die. Let's cherish the ones that live!

Bill "back from a 4,500sm tour" Watson

$400,000 for a new 4 seat airplane. $800,000 to $1,000,000 for one that will fly my family of five around. $5.75/gallon avgas. To me...aviation is killing itself, with a significant amount of help from the government. It makes me sick. I'm sick of how expensive everything that goes up into the sky is. The people who should be flying airplanes aren't because that is way to much money to spend when you have other priorities in life (FAMILY).
If we want to save general aviation, we need to find a way to build and sell aircraft for a reasonable amount of money. I absolutely LOVE flying. I have since I was a little boy. It makes me sick and sad to think of what aviation once was and where it is now headed.

Palatka rocks

I stopped there for fuel on the way back from key west a couple of weeks ago, asked about local places to eat, the guy at the desk in the terminal just handed methe keys to his car (not courtesy car, that was out overnight, his!) and said take it as long as you like.

While fueling I saw 2 RV's, 10 and a 6 or 7 can't remember.

I will make that my regular stop when I am transitioning the area.

I always leave my hanger open when im working on the airplane, and usually enjoy a chat while i'm wrenching, but with a fence around the airport there are very few opportunities for anyone not already an owner to stop by.

walkman said:

I stopped there for fuel on the way back from key west a couple of weeks ago, asked about local places to eat, the guy at the desk in the terminal just handed methe keys to his car (not courtesy car, that was out overnight, his!) and said take it as long as you like.

While fueling I saw 2 RV's, 10 and a 6 or 7 can't remember.

I will make that my regular stop when I am transitioning the area.

I always leave my hanger open when im working on the airplane, and usually enjoy a chat while i'm wrenching, but with a fence around the airport there are very few opportunities for anyone not already an owner to stop by.

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Martin, let me know when you are in the area again, love to meet you and talk RV's!!

aarvig, you took the words right out of my mouth... If one ever added up the costs of owning an airplane it is just criminal. And... what sane person is going to shell out megabucks for a new C-172 with at best marginal performance? I hear they are upwards of $250k. Cessna could never survive on selling piston aircraft, their jets save them.

I would not recommend the following, and if you do, never let your sig other see it, but just add up your gas bill, hangar costs, insurance,depreciation, annual, interest if you have a loan, and not least of all, if you took the value of your RV and applied same to your 4% home mortgage.Add it all up and divide by hours, guaranteed shock value! This may sound crazy, but it is totally valid. Gives you the true cost.

Understand, I don't do this myself, scared to know the answer...You just have to love airplanes, thasall...

.

Open doors

ccsmith51 said:

The hangars were full, and every Saturday and Sunday it seems most were open and someone was always doing something, ready for a Coke and hangar talk... I fly a bit and work on the plane a bit.

I had the cowling off my plane last summer and was working on my plane. The guy I lease my hangar from happened to walk by and ask what I was doing. I said I was changing my oil. He said "sorry, can't do that, read your lease." Sure enough, I read my lease, and there in the legaleze is a paragraph prohibiting leasors from performing maintenance on their aircraft in their hangar. Too much liability says the guy I lease from.

Now I gotta keep the door shut when I'm working on my plane until I can find another hangar to lease! (Located on Van's home airport.) Sheez.

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videobobk said:

....Snip......

How about offering a scholarship for a PPL to a graduating senior? Lots of you could afford that. Offer a free flight lesson at the very least. Recruit a group and help them take Sporty's ground school. I guess what I am saying is quit complaining and do something. I doubt it will be wrong, and I bet it will succeed. End of rant.

Bob

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Sorry Bob....Been there.... tired of "free".
Have flown hundreds of kids through YE, and my own good will over the years. Never a problem getting a line of kids to get a FREE (for them) airplane ride. However once ride is over, they are gone faster than the wind, or in the office using the airport computer to get on FB, MySpace, whatever. Interesting that while they are having their FREE hot dogs or burger, and I am right in front of them wiping the bugs and belly...Never had one come out to volunteer to help.
Nope, not going to give it away for free anymore. Just to bring my plane home with the seat pockets stuffed full of candy wrappers, gum stuck to the window frame, and most of all broken parts because the little ingrates don't have enough respect for my plane (or really anything else) not to pry the window and door latches.
Most kids today get it all for free and believe that the world owes them a debt for their existence (Casey S., I am sure that you are a great kid, and you sure seem to have a great great attitude. This is not directed at you, or the few fine young men and women who are a credit to aviation). I have an 18 y/o nephew who loves to fly. When he comes to the hangar, he picks up the rag and cleans, digs in to help with the maintenance, or sweeps the hangar. Whatever it takes to help out, and he knows that he has to earn the time in the plane. Thats the way I started, and 40 years, and 20K+ hours later, I look back and realize that getting it for free is not the best way. You have got to earn it!

Ok, flame me at will but---

My younger brother learned to fly at Torrance KTOA in the early 60s while I was away defending the USA. He soloed a Taylor Craft after 6 hours instruction. His 'Oral Interview' consisted of talking about his flying experiences, control tower 'light signals' and a little about flying theory = about 1/2 hours. No FAR AIM, Oral Interview Question Book or Multiple training books to learn. Very few regulations to memorize. The Taylor Craft cost him $4 wet/hr. Flight Instructor cost him $2.50/ hr. Many of you earned your PPC in that same relaxed atmosphere. I wish that I had but life got in the way.

So, contrast that with today. Oral interview lasting minimum of 1.5 hrs - sometimes 2-3 hours - covering all of the rules and regulations that now exist. That's before you even get near the airplane with the examiner. I'm not saying that that isn't necessary as I don't know but if you take a good look at what 'new' student pilots are facing (book learning, etc plus the almost $10,000 required it can become a daunting if not outright undo-able undertaking.

Plus, today, you can walk into an FBO and be completely ignored unless you know someone there.

So, if I come off a little hard then it is what it is. Life can be hard - it takes a lot of study and dedication to pass the PPC Exam - and a ton of money. I find there are two kinds of people - those who own airplanes and are welcome at the airport and those who 'have not'. If you find that hard to believe then show up --- almost anywhere--- even at one of Van's Homecomings without an airplane and see how 'lonely' you really are. I know, the cure is to build my RV-12 kit and get a PPC - fact is that I may not make it - that's life.

There's some of us 'fence farters'

I have about 10 hours left on ppl, and my kit arrives on the 26th of June! needless to say, I'll practically be living at the airport this summer!

I think that it's impossible to get into aviation without a person really enabling you. For me that's my dad at the great folks of VAF!

Thanks!!

Steven
17 yearsold

They still exist!

I agree that many airports have lost the charm and ability to inspire new people to get exited about flying. When our airport was bought by the aircraft owners (N40 Sky Manor Airport in NJ) our goal was to bring back the days of flying that many of us remember. There's no question that the cost of flying has been getting out of hand but so has most everything! You can still buy a basic Piper for under $25,000.00 the cast of a cheep car. We work hard to get people involved in all kinds of activities that are aviation based, it is certainly harder than ever!

Yes, times have changed. But don't get to carried away with the past in terms of money without factoring in inflation. In 1965 my first part time job paid minimum wage - $0.75 an hour! Today minimum wage is ten times that, so if gas was $0.35 a gallon then it should be $3.50 now (more or less). So it may be a bit more than inflation, but not outrageous.

Nor do I think it's that hard to get a license. Yes, it takes a bit of studying but it's not out of reach for most people.

But our lifestyles have changed.
My parents never worried about health care, retirement, or college costs for their kids, because my father's company paid for health care, even in retirement; he had a promised pension; and colleges (at least state ones) were inexpensive enough that with full time summer work, and part time school year work, one could get through with little or no borrowing. But these things have escalated way faster than inflation. Now people worry that their 401 (k)'s won't see them thru retirement (and for a lot of people they should be worried); health care costs are out of sight, companies are declaring bankruptcy to get out of honoring past promises made to retirees; and who can afford Stanford? At the same time cars travel faster, with fewer stops and in a more direct line on the interstate (in the early 1960's a 172 was 3 times faster than car travel; now it's only 2 times). And commercial airline travel, as ugly as it is, is much cheaper now (adjusted for inflation) than it was in the '60s. Private aircraft ownership is simply being squeezed lower in priority for most people.

Airport life ... times have changed

Times have changed, and will continue to change. A friend of mine at the airport was telling be about "old times" when there was someone at Compton Airport selling T-6's, P-51's and T-28's for $300 to $800 dollars. He also mentioned that he was making $0.75 an hour wage.

Those times have come and gone, and things are in constant change. I'm privileged to be based at an active airport, if you know where to look. Many hangars are open and most people are friendly. Everyone has time to hangar talk while having a cold drink.

However, like probably everyone else, I see a decline in the interest of aviation. The number of people earning a license to fly for recreation has dropped significantly. Of course, this is due to many factors. The main one is desire. As you know ,you have to have a desire, and drive, to fly. Desire starts with exposure to aviation. The exposure can't happen if the kids constantly sit in front of Facebook, PS3, or Xbox all day in addition to information saturation from TV, internet, texting, mobile devices, etc., teens and young adults tend to have an attention/interest span of a gnat.

I don't think drawing people to aviation can be fixed just by "low cost" aircraft ($100K for an LSA, really?) no fences around an airport, friendly people, or even "free" flights at an airport. The mentality has to change. Airports and FBO's have to do community outreach (the ones in my area tend to just be there taking up space) among other things.

I too stopped flying YE flights due to a few reasons. The last straw for me was graffiti on the back seats and side panels of the 172 I was flying.

I keep my hangar open and/or am around the field most weekends. Whenever I come across someone, regardless of age, interested in building, I always have scrap aluminum on hand so they can try their hand at riveting.

Hopefully, the aviation community I love will survive, and interest will once again blossom drawing more people to the airport.

I wouldn't be surprised if I heard from a grandkid "A P-51 was under 2 million dollars? You should have bought them all!"

We're trying hard here in San Diego...

At Air Group One, of the Commemorative Air Force, San Diego, we are doing our best in an attempt to attract youth out to the airport and perhaps foster an interest in an aviation related career. In addition to offering several $1500 aviation scholarships a year to students newly enrolled in flight training, we are also actively involved in two major programs:

We sponsor an AFROTC cadet flight training program and also a program designed to outreach to our local area schools called “A-STEM”…Aviation, Science, Technology, Engineering & Math. Please check out our link and videos of our A-STEM program below.

http://www.ag1caf.org/A-STEM.htm

Also, our annual Wings Over Gillespie Air Show is just around the corner, June 1-3. The Friday portion of the show is dedicated for local area school children only. We meet and greet the school busses and give the kids a personalized tour of the displays and answer their questions.

All of the above programs have been extremely rewarding. We have seen positive results with students that have passed through our doors and later have entered an aviation career field.

Regards,

BobTurner said:

Yes, times have changed. But don't get to carried away with the past in terms of money without factoring in inflation. In 1965 my first part time job paid minimum wage - $0.75 an hour! Today minimum wage is ten times that, so if gas was $0.35 a gallon then it should be $3.50 now (more or less). So it may be a bit more than inflation, but not outrageous.

Click to expand...

Interesting that you talk about this. Today, MSN.com had an article on costs of gasoline, rent, movie tickets in relation to minimum wage in each decade since the 1950's. Here is the article:
http://money.msn.com/personal-finance/slide.aspx?cp-documentid=6952105

An interesting spin used with this article was the idea of how much working time it took to pay for the various items. You mention inflation as it relates to a gallon of gasoline and the fact inflation shows the price for a gallon of gasoline has not gone up that much, at least in terms of inflation. Well, below are the respective percentages of minimum wage for a gallon of gasoline according to MSN:

• 1950
  wage - .75; gasoline - .27; % of wage - 36%
• 1960
  wage - 1.00; gasoline - .31; % of wage - 31%
• 1970
• wage - 1.60; gasoline - .36; % of wage - 23%
• 1980
  wage - 3.10; gasoline - 1.25; % of wage - 40%
• 1990
  wage - 3.80; gasoline - 1.13; % of wage - 30%
• 2000
  wage - 5.15; gasoline - 1.49; % of wage - 29%
• 2010
  wage - 7.25; gasoline - 2.78; % of wage - 38%

I am a little suspect of these numbers as I have some very vivid personal memories of a few of these years. The first is 1980. I was a senior in high school in 1980 and very vividly remember the gasoline prices of that era. They were no where near $1.25. They were in the .70 - .80 cent range. At that price the % of wage would have been - 23 - 26%. In 1990 I recall gasoline prices around .90 a gallon putting a percentage around 24%. Also, in 2000 the price was no where near $1.49. It was more like $1.00 at that time for a percentage of just under 20%.

Whether you go by MSN numbers or my recollections, it is evident there were some fluctuations of gasoline price/wage over the decades. Currently it appears we are fluctuating upward in % of wages required to pay for fuel costs as we push close to the 40% of minimum wage required for a gallon of gasoline. Of course, I have no comparisons for minimum wage vs average wage but overall this was an interesting take on things even if there were a few questionable numbers given.

Posting just for food for thought.

Human Interaction Has Changed

The young simply do not relate to the slow paced, face-to-face interaction that is the basis for flying. I grew up in a small, rural Oklahoma town. Every night, but especially on weekends it was a scene from American Pie; dragging main, sitting on car hoods with your buds. It was down-right crowded. There was almost no room to park along the eight blocks of main street. After the internet and satellite/cable TV arrived, the same town with the same population size and demographic is completely different. Main street is a ghost town at sundown. If there are pilots among them they are spreading mayhem in F-22's and F-35's they learned to master in a few nights. Our kind of flying must seem frightfully boring by comparison and very tedious to learn. Worse yet, you have to suffer through talking and being around people in person!

WSBuilder said:

The young simply do not relate to the slow paced, face-to-face interaction that is the basis for flying. I grew up in a small, rural Oklahoma town. Every night, but especially on weekends it was a scene from American Pie; dragging main, sitting on car hoods with your buds. It was down-right crowded. There was almost no room to park along the eight blocks of main street. After the internet and satellite/cable TV arrived, the same town with the same population size and demographic is completely different. Main street is a ghost town at sundown. If there are pilots among them they are spreading mayhem in F-22's and F-35's they learned to master in a few nights. Our kind of flying must seem frightfully boring by comparison and very tedious to learn. Worse yet, you have to suffer through talking and being around people in person!

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On the money, Bill! Maybe we should start conducting ground school via text messaging, and change the written answers to reflect what most kids understand.

1. Upon entering the traffic pattern for landing, a sudden loss of engine power is experienced. The initial action should be:

a. Tweet your problem to your friends, including photo of stopped propeller.
b. Call your parents, and begin lawsuit as this could not be your fault.
c. This failure is not on FS X, so therefore is not possible in an actual aircraft.
d. OMG!!

WSBuilder said:

The young simply do not relate to the slow paced, face-to-face interaction that is the basis for flying. I grew up in a small, rural Oklahoma town. Every night, but especially on weekends it was a scene from American Pie; dragging main, sitting on car hoods with your buds. It was down-right crowded. There was almost no room to park along the eight blocks of main street.

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Now that brings back some memories!!! Sounds exactly like my high school days. So what rural Oklahoma town? Mine was a town called Mooreland, OK. We would drag main for hours. If we had enough gas we would drive 10 miles over to Woodward (bigger town) and do the same thing. Dragging main and turning around at the Sonic. We could do this for hours every weekend.

I did go back to my hometown a couple of years ago for a Homecoming football game. I did notice, at least on that night, there were several high school kids sitting on the hoods of their cars in a parking lot. I did not really see anyone dragging main though.

WSBuilder said:

Every night, but especially on weekends it was a scene from American Pie; dragging main, sitting on car hoods with your buds.

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Hmm, no studying in the evenings? Might explain what I now see in the group of 20 engineers I'm in. All of us have graduate degrees. 5 were born in the US. 15 foreign-born. Americans don't want to put the work in to study anything, including science, engineering, and flying.

Adam said:

You can still buy a basic Piper for under $25,000.00 the cast of a cheep car.

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Yeah but that cheap car won't cost me $2500 to $5000 per year in maintenance costs either. Not only that but a 25,000 Piper is (flame suit on) an ugly, beat up, ancient looking and smelling tin can with wings. Not very exciting for the young kids. In fact, their parents look at them and say..."Does that thing really fly?" That 25K piper really should cost 5K.

Buggsy2 said:

Hmm, no studying in the evenings? Might explain what I now see in the group of 20 engineers I'm in. All of us have graduate degrees. 5 were born in the US. 15 foreign-born. Americans don't want to put the work in to study anything, including science, engineering, and flying.

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Amen.. The American engineers I work with are good but they are in very short supply.

Every one of them was amazed that I chose to start on the EIT (FE) exam at 48 years old.., while working a 10 hour per day job. Some of 20 year olds didn't even think it was possible. Well sorry but thats the discipline I grew up with.

You want something bad enough you work for it until its done.

Frank.. Ex Pat Brit, BSc, MBA and now PE..

WSBuilder said:

The young simply do not relate to the slow paced, face-to-face interaction that is the basis for flying. I grew up in a small, rural Oklahoma town. Every night, but especially on weekends it was a scene from American Pie; dragging main, sitting on car hoods with your buds. It was down-right crowded. There was almost no room to park along the eight blocks of main street. After the internet and satellite/cable TV arrived, the same town with the same population size and demographic is completely different. Main street is a ghost town at sundown. If there are pilots among them they are spreading mayhem in F-22's and F-35's they learned to master in a few nights. Our kind of flying must seem frightfully boring by comparison and very tedious to learn. Worse yet, you have to suffer through talking and being around people in person!

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When I was a kid (graduated HS in 95) we tried to do this. The police would come and run us off. Not the police's fault but that of shop owners that didn't like people parking In front of their businesses after hours in public parking. More than one friend was arrested/cited for loitering.

The blame is not placed on today's generation, but on all of us.

inexpensive airplane

The Piper Cherokee is probably not a good example. In my opinion one of the best bargains in inexpensive certified airplanes is the Cessna 140. Not a great performer but it gets the job done. 25k for a nice one 35-40 will buy a former Oshkosh Grand Champion Classic, or something very close. If you do your homework and find a cooperative mechanic you can do 95% of the maintenence work yourself

kids

One only has to visit the Public Library to understand what is wrong. The Library used to be a place of quiet where people, if they spoke at all, spoke in whispers. Now the sign on the wall says "this is a no shush zone". Translated this means that the kids can do as they please. They are only interested in computer games, body piercings and tatoos. They yell at each other, bump into adults without apology, etc.

WSBuilder said:

The young simply do not relate to the slow paced, face-to-face interaction that is the basis for flying. I grew up in a small, rural Oklahoma town. Every night, but especially on weekends it was a scene from American Pie; dragging main, sitting on car hoods with your buds. It was down-right crowded. There was almost no room to park along the eight blocks of main street. After the internet and satellite/cable TV arrived, the same town with the same population size and demographic is completely different. Main street is a ghost town at sundown. If there are pilots among them they are spreading mayhem in F-22's and F-35's they learned to master in a few nights. Our kind of flying must seem frightfully boring by comparison and very tedious to learn. Worse yet, you have to suffer through talking and being around people in person!

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Bill,

I concur, your comments are spot on. Unfortunately, we cannot turn back the cultural clock (I mean the I-pad)…just look at how we now configure the panels in our basic VFR airplanes! Between Facebook, U-tube, text messaging, the I-phone, and computer gaming, the youth of today has no incentive to physically explore the outside world or build interpersonal relationships beyond arm’s reach.

Sadly, it is what it is. Our technology immersed society no longer writes in cursive, can’t spell (whoops…that me), or can’t even manually balance a check book. As a matter of fact, our current generation of military pilots are equally and dangerously technologically dependent. If everything is working okay…they are the best…eliminate a system input or two…the mission aborts.

Lacking national motivational goals such as President John F Kennedy’s pledge to land a man on the moon by the end of the 1960’s, interplanetary travel, or even movies such as Top Gun, unless a child of today has a direct hands-on mentor, it is unlikely that child will be attracted to a career in aviation, engineering, or science.

Although our present day youth operate on a different page of music from most of us, I still feel the best way to capture their attention is through direct, hands-on mentorship. It takes a grass-roots effort by dedicated volunteers, and perhaps a little encourgement from an interested teacher or parent…the kids will and do respond. See the link below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsj574D3Rjo&feature=player_embedded#!

BTW, every kid, parent, and teacher that attended the above event got an airplane ride later that day.

Regards,

jetjok said:

Nope, not going to give it away for free anymore. Just to bring my plane home with the seat pockets stuffed full of candy wrappers, gum stuck to the window frame, and most of all broken parts because the little ingrates don't have enough respect for my plane (or really anything else) not to pry the window and door latches.

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The cure for this is to take only one kid at a time. No problem in my Aircoupe With just one kid, first, you get a better quality young person, one who really wants the experience, not one egged on by their buddies. Second, of course you can watch them more closely and equally, they can see outside much better and fly the airplane. Use Young Eagles for quality, not quantity, and see the difference.

DAGO said:

Bill,

Lacking national motivational goals such as President John F Kennedy?s pledge to land a man on the moon by the end of the 1960?s, interplanetary travel, or even movies such as Top Gun, unless a child of today has a direct hands-on mentor, it is unlikely that child will be attracted to a career in aviation, engineering, or science.

Although our present day youth operate on a different page of music from most of us, I still feel the best way to capture their attention is still through direct, hands-on mentorship. It takes a grass-roots effort by dedicated volunteers, and perhaps a little encourgement from an interested teacher or parent?the kids will and do respond. See the link below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsj574D3Rjo&feature=player_embedded#!

Regards,

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On the nose!

If anyone doubts this, I will have 17 students (and at least three adults that have never been there) at Oshkosh this year. Stop by and ask them. Ten are from a single class! All of them are paying all or part of their way there. One sold candy to get enough money to go. I know, "free" isn't the answer, but work is. Each of these students will have worked at least a hundred hours, some much more. Excited? They ask when they can go speak at other schools. Sure, they are getting a free SP license, but they are earning it, and that still has appeal. Either that, or the kids here in Indiana are really different.

Our only difference; here I hear it isn't possible, I say it isn't easy. It took me four years to get this far. I only had five kids there last year. It took four figures hours every year, and quite a few dollars. I know most can't do that, but some can. You can do your part. The mentors that work with me probably only spend ten hours per week. YE is part of it, even though 90% are hopeless. "Hire" a helper on your project, invite his or her friends. You will be amazed. Show "Spirit of Aviation" to them. Over half will want to go. At least that is my experience. The other side of the coin--you will never have more fun in your life! I even enjoyed learning to text. Yes, you have to understand the culture, but if you do, they will learn yours.

I guess that ended up being another rant. Sigh...

Bob

eye of the beholder

Hmm, no studying in the evenings? Might explain what I now see in the group of 20 engineers I'm in. All of us have graduate degrees. 5 were born in the US. 15 foreign-born. Americans don't want to put the work in to study anything, including science, engineering, and flying. - Buggsy2

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Amen.. The American engineers I work with are good but they are in very short supply. - frankh

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I disagree; I find no shortage of talented US born Engineers. I do see companies and groups that hire foreign born Engineers in order to pay lower wages.

videobobk said:

On the nose!

If anyone doubts this, I will have 17 students (and at least three adults that have never been there) at Oshkosh this year. Stop by and ask them. Ten are from a single class! All of them are paying all or part of their way there. One sold candy to get enough money to go. I know, "free" isn't the answer, but work is. Each of these students will have worked at least a hundred hours, some much more. Excited? They ask when they can go speak at other schools. Sure, they are getting a free SP license, but they are earning it, and that still has appeal. Either that, or the kids here in Indiana are really different.


I guess that ended up being another rant. Sigh...

Bob

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Bob,
You contradicted yourself. You describe how your students put in "at least a hundred hours" to get to participate. Then you state that they are getting a "free" SP license. Seems to me it was not free, as they earned it.
I have no doubt that your kids are probably a very special group, and those that are not truly interested and are without passion, are left by the wayside.
BTW, I do believe that the kids in Indiana may be quite different then they are in other locales in the US. That however has more to do with the parents than the kids.

aarvig said:

Yeah but that cheap car won't cost me $2500 to $5000 per year in maintenance costs either. Not only that but a 25,000 Piper is (flame suit on) an ugly, beat up, ancient looking and smelling tin can with wings. Not very exciting for the young kids. In fact, their parents look at them and say..."Does that thing really fly?" That 25K piper really should cost 5K.

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Let me tell ya', Aaron....There are some Pipers that can be had for 25K that are truly amazing planes. You need to broaden your search just a bit, and look for the wings in places where Piper don't build em anymore!

DAGO said:

At Air Group One, of the Commemorative Air Force, San Diego, we are doing our best in an attempt to attract youth out to the airport and perhaps foster an interest in an aviation related career. In addition to offering several $1500 aviation scholarships a year to students newly enrolled in flight training, we are also actively involved in two major programs:

We sponsor an AFROTC cadet flight training program and also a program designed to outreach to our local area schools called “A-STEM”…Aviation, Science, Technology, Engineering & Math. Please check out our link and videos of our A-STEM program below.

http://www.ag1caf.org/A-STEM.htm

Also, our annual Wings Over Gillespie Air Show is just around the corner, June 1-3. The Friday portion of the show is dedicated for local area school children only. We meet and greet the school busses and give the kids a personalized tour of the displays and answer their questions.

All of the above programs have been extremely rewarding. We have seen positive results with students that have passed through our doors and later have entered an aviation career field.

Regards,

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Just a follow-up. Today ended our annual air show at Gillespie. Below are a few photos of the school children that were bussed out to the airport for a personalized tour. Probably 8 to 10 school busses filled with kids showed up. I had a group of 5th & 6th graders. I think they had a good time, perhaps we kindled a spark or two among them.


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Several major differences between "then" and now. One giant one is lawyers. Society has become so risk averse and letigous(sp?), that even if the owners/operators on an airport wanted kids around, they're too afraid of being sued if someone gets hurt. The other is fear of crime and boogey men. Now no one can or will let general public into the aircraft operating area unescorted since they may be a domestic terrorist.

Just this last weekend, I saw a couple of guys looking through an open gate at my and a friends' plane while we were fueling at a small field. I should have waved them over. Feel bad now for not doing it. Next time, I will.

Kids are keen, but there are so many barriers today.

Low Pass said:

Several major differences between "then" and now. One giant one is lawyers. Society has become so risk averse and letigous(sp?), that even if the owners/operators on an airport wanted kids around, they're too afraid of being sued if someone gets hurt.

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I agree with the above. As a school teacher who has the pleasure of teaching high school students in basic aeronautical knowledge, I can attest to the fact they are as keen as ever to be involved in aviation, but the school will not allow any practical flights as the insurers say an absolute NO!

There is also this ridiculous belief that anyone and everyone who is on the tarmac must have a security check and / or be accompanied due to the risk that these young people pose as possible terrorists!

ccsmith51 said:

Martin, let me know when you are in the area again, love to meet you and talk RV's!!

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Will do. Hopefully going to KW again soon

RVbySDI said:

Interesting that you talk about this. Today, MSN.com had an article on costs of gasoline, rent, movie tickets in relation to minimum wage in each decade since the 1950's. Here is the article:
http://money.msn.com/personal-finance/slide.aspx?cp-documentid=6952105

An interesting spin used with this article was the idea of how much working time it took to pay for the various items. You mention inflation as it relates to a gallon of gasoline and the fact inflation shows the price for a gallon of gasoline has not gone up that much, at least in terms of inflation. Well, below are the respective percentages of minimum wage for a gallon of gasoline according to MSN:

• 1950
  wage - .75; gasoline - .27; % of wage - 36%
• 1960
  wage - 1.00; gasoline - .31; % of wage - 31%
• 1970
• wage - 1.60; gasoline - .36; % of wage - 23%
• 1980
  wage - 3.10; gasoline - 1.25; % of wage - 40%
• 1990
  wage - 3.80; gasoline - 1.13; % of wage - 30%
• 2000
  wage - 5.15; gasoline - 1.49; % of wage - 29%
• 2010
  wage - 7.25; gasoline - 2.78; % of wage - 38%

I am a little suspect of these numbers as I have some very vivid personal memories of a few of these years. The first is 1980. I was a senior in high school in 1980 and very vividly remember the gasoline prices of that era. They were no where near $1.25. They were in the .70 - .80 cent range. At that price the % of wage would have been - 23 - 26%. In 1990 I recall gasoline prices around .90 a gallon putting a percentage around 24%. Also, in 2000 the price was no where near $1.49. It was more like $1.00 at that time for a percentage of just under 20%.

Whether you go by MSN numbers or my recollections, it is evident there were some fluctuations of gasoline price/wage over the decades. Currently it appears we are fluctuating upward in % of wages required to pay for fuel costs as we push close to the 40% of minimum wage required for a gallon of gasoline. Of course, I have no comparisons for minimum wage vs average wage but overall this was an interesting take on things even if there were a few questionable numbers given.

Posting just for food for thought.

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Steve

Not sure where you live, but based on my memory you are off by a decade. In '81, '82 i was driving a moped and spending about .90 a gal. The prices in the article jive with my memory of Cincinnati and Atlanta prices.

walkman said:

Steve

Not sure where you live, but based on my memory you are off by a decade. In '81, '82 i was driving a moped and spending about .90 a gal. The prices in the article jive with my memory of Cincinnati and Atlanta prices.

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Yes, I am sure the various different parts of the country had different prices over the years. The prices I recalled in my post were from Oklahoma. We tend to have lower fuel prices than other parts of the country. Especially most of the eastern/northeastern tier states. I am sure the article's author did not get his price information from any of the fly-over states, my guess is he is a city dweller from one of those very populated east coast states.

gas price

Are these really supposed to be car gas prices??? Car gas in 1960 was right at $0.25 a gallon in northern Jew Jersey. Acrosss the state line in NY at least .05 higher. Avgas in NY in the mid 60's was in the .45 range.