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The ADS-B System is flawed

FasGlas said:
I'm not quite sure how Auto efficiency has anything to do with Aviation efficiency
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You brought up a GPS-tracking study in SF for cars...now what that has to do with the price of tea in China I'm not sure, but I explained why governments are looking into alternate ways of paying for highways through other than the traditional gasoline tax.

Funny how the FAA recently made all aircraft a 5 year mandatory registration. In their own words they said they need to know where ALL the aircraft are.
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That came about after 9/11 when Congress got PO'ed that the FAA didn't even know how many aircraft were flying in the US and where they were located.
Hopefully ADS-B will be lobbied out like the 406 ELT.
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Not a chance.
 
Buggsy2 said:
You brought up a GPS-tracking study in SF for cars...now what that has to do with the price of tea in China I'm not sure, but I explained why governments are looking into alternate ways of paying for highways through other than the traditional gasoline tax.

That came about after 9/11 when Congress got PO'ed that the FAA didn't even know how many aircraft were flying in the US and where they were located. Not a chance.
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Ya know Ralph, I don't want to flame here but, you really need to wake up and smell the coffee. If you really think the FAA needs to know where every Cessna 150 is and whether it flys or not, every 5 years.. And if you really think the government spends our tax dollars wisely and needs to find more ways to suck it from all of us for our own good.. And ADS-B is never going to be a source to tax the "Rich aircraft owners" even more.. And you don't see connection between GPS tracking in cars for more taxes and ADS-B... Ralph, you've got Ray Charles syndrome.
Just how many Cessna 150's have mid-aired with a 747 in the last 25 years? None. And everyone will require an expensive certified ADS-B installation to fly anywhere other then rural areas. Most owners with a $20K plane won't install a $10K ADS-B system.
Re-registering aircraft every 5 years is no indication of how many aircraft there are and where they are flying. It only indicates how many owners pay the 5 bucks every 5 years.
The feds said 406 will be mandatory and it got tossed in the end. ADS-B rules will be changed as the date gets closer. Guaranteed.

-Flame out- No disrespect.
 
KatieB said:
Respectfully I disagree with you here Jay. You and I have worked closely to get your system working and I know you're frustrated. However, you were the first one to respond to Jim from the FAA when he CAME TO US on his own a few months back, so you know at least one person is there to help.
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I have acknowledged, both here an in other forums, that to date Jim is the ONLY person in the FAA that I have discovered who knows (or cares) about ADS-B as it applies to general aviation. There may be others out there, but I have not found them, and it's not for a lack of trying.

And I don't mean to imply that there aren't plenty of FAA types who are eager to explain how the system will work in 2020. Those folks were everywhere at Oshkosh. I'm talking about someone who can help you with a current installation in the current airspace system.

Unfortunately, a guy who can run written reports after the fact is simply not very helpful when you're trying to troubleshoot an ADS-B installation. To date, I have found NO ONE in the FAA who knows (or cares) about day to day, hour to hour, minute to minute operation of the ADS-B system. The two controlling bodies -- ATC and Flight Service -- simply do not know or care at this time.

Which means that in the real world we have no idea if the system is up, down, or sideways in any given sector. If you suddenly have no traffic, it is quite impossible to determine why.

Which is why we have been using a dual redundant system to crosscheck each other. When the GRT system fails to display traffic, but the Nexus 7/GDL-39 does -- we assume (and rightly so) that there is a problem with the SkyRadar/GRT Horizon/TT-22 system.

When the GRT shows traffic, and the Nexus 7 does not, we presume there's a glitch with the GDL-39/Garmin Pilot system

When they BOTH fail to display traffic/weather, as happens often, we presume the ADS-B system itself is to blame. However, in the absence of real-time reporting from the FAA, we have no real-time data, and are thus left guessing.

My advice to anyone thinking of upgrading: WAIT. Don't throw your money away until the system is operational and the controlling bodies have implemented two-way reporting of outages. You'll save yourself a lot of time and grief.
 
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Jay,
Perhaps its just your location, I've done quite a bit of flying with ADS-B for 2 years now and the only problem I've had was with one of the first GDL39's that would drop traffic for some reason. The G3X team guys sent me a new one (even when out of warranty) and I had zero problems with the new box.

If you ask me, no one should wait to enjoy the benefit of weather and traffic especially if you travel or live in a high traffic area (which I do).
 
N941WR said:
Correction, they are coal fired cars.
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<sigh>The point is that all-electric cars don't pay anything for highway maintenance, hence, governments are exploring other ways of having those cars pay their fair share.

But back to the OP?s ADSB complaint. As several have pointed out it's still in developmental mode...the deadline being more than 5 years away. My solution for the OP is simple. Replace your current ADSB stuff with XM for weather and some sort of collision avoidance system for traffic. Job done.

Me, I'm about to order and install an all-Dynon Skyview system including their ADSB equipment. That's the future, it doesn't bother me it's a few years ahead.
 
Walt said:
Jay,
Perhaps its just your location, I've done quite a bit of flying with ADS-B for 2 years now and the only problem I've had was with one of the first GDL39's that would drop traffic for some reason. The G3X team guys sent me a new one (even when out of warranty) and I had zero problems with the new box.

If you ask me, no one should wait to enjoy the benefit of weather and traffic especially if you travel or live in a high traffic area (which I do).
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I expect you're probably right, Walt. Up in your neck of the woods, they may have ADS-B on rails.

Today's flight was a perfect illustration: KRAS (Mustang Island) to 11R (Brenham). We departed and had great traffic, even showing planes on the ground.

15 miles later -- poof! First the Nexus 7 went blank, then the EFIS.

Around Victoria (at 9500') it blinked back on, briefly. Nothing showed up in the very busy airspace around Brenham.

After an awesome lunch, we departed. I had traffic a minute or two after departure, then nothing. Again, it blinked on as we passed Victoria (at 8500'), and then we had nothing until we were about 15 miles from the coast. Then, we had lots of traffic, and it stayed on through landing.

The system ain't a system...yet.
 
RV9A Bill said:
Walt,
Please tell us the $4k in/out system details.
RV9A Bill
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The FreeFlight RANGR FDL-978-XVR is currently on sale for $3995.
http://www.freeflightsystems.com/

The kit includes everything you need to install it and is a fully compliant 2020 system.

This is a fully certified/STC'd ADS-B in/out system that is ready to go (includes a certifed GPS). Also included is the wifi module so you can view weather/traffic on you tablet/ipad.

I currently have 2 installs going on, one in a certified aircraft and one in an RV7. If you need more info or would like to purchase a unit please let me know as I am a Freeflight dealer.

FYI: Freeflight was the original capstone equipment supplier, they know more about ADS-B systems than most.
 
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jjhoneck said:
I expect you're probably right, Walt. Up in your neck of the woods, they may have ADS-B on rails.

Today's flight was a perfect illustration: KRAS (Mustang Island) to 11R (Brenham). We departed and had great traffic, even showing planes on the ground.

15 miles later -- poof! First the Nexus 7 went blank, then the EFIS.

Around Victoria (at 9500') it blinked back on, briefly. Nothing showed up in the very busy airspace around Brenham.

After an awesome lunch, we departed. I had traffic a minute or two after departure, then nothing. Again, it blinked on as we passed Victoria (at 8500'), and then we had nothing until we were about 15 miles from the coast. Then, we had lots of traffic, and it stayed on through landing.

The system ain't a system...yet.
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Jay,
Where are your skyradar and GDL39 antennas mounted?
 
flyvans.com said:
ads-b is great for remote areas like alaska and may allow to save a radar or two somewhere in the outback. but as soon as you are getting into reasonably dense areas and especially into the vicinity of large airports, the 3nm radar separation (or possibly mulitlateration) standard is going to be here for a long time yet.
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Bernie,

3nm radar separation is nothing to brag about, that is pretty poor in a dense congestive environment. The problem is Radar is measuring in 1D range (distance). Radar has azimuthal errors which become significant at distances greater than 30 NM. At that range, 1 degree of azimuth error becomes half a nautical mile wide. What ADS-B offers is better accuracy ~+/- 5m constant at all ranges since it is based on your gps (multilateration geolocation from 3-5 satellites). Hence better separation, situational awareness, etc.

also, ads-b has many serious security flaws (specs stem from pre-9/11).
spooffing (creating false targets), gps jamming or tweaking (invalidating positions of true targets) etc... way way worse than with radar, especially when multi-radar tracking is done. or anyone truly believe AF1 will ever be cooperative?! it shouldn't be, feel free to add all other "sensitive flights" and therewith fails the concept.
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Way worse than radar? Radar is not inherently resistant to any of this. Radar jamming and spoofing has been an active development and well documented for over 50 years. Ads-b is certainly vulnerable to jamming, but the methods are a lot less mature to date. Sure AF1 can turn off their transmitters as any of us can. However, I wouldn't expect this to happen, AF1 always fly's under ATC control, hence, transponder on. Except in time of war which means they'll be closing down the airspace anyway.

ajay
 
Worried about user fees with ADS-B

I have ADS-B out only so others can see me but because I do not have the right GPS for the transponder all that is going out is the S-mode. So the only thing that air traffic control is lacking from me is my exact speed, exact GPS location, and GPS altitude.
As far as who I am and general tracking they have all of that now through the S-Mode of the transponder. There is no reason they can not tax me for my miles flown NOW even though gps part is not working.
There is no reason to get all shook up about a new tax or if they are going to tax GA. I feel they are already taxing us. In Minnesota to register my aircraft they made me pay taxes for what I felt my aircraft was worth so I had to guess with a reasonable dollar value.
My home airport KULM has just extended the runways and re-built the taxi-ways to include very nice class 5 packable soil to hold heavy aircraft. That is not cheap to do something like this. I can not imagine how much AV-gas it would take to pay for something like this. I don't like the $6.18 per gallon they charge here but I sure like the new runway.
I drive truck for a living and the government tracks us via GPS for all our highway use tax! In the past we had to write down all the miles we drove in each state so each state could get their share of tax but now with GPS tracking it is much easier for everyone. We even have electronic logbooks to track our driving time so there is no cheating. If anything hope the government does not require a log book to verify that we are not tired before we fly! Working a full day at work would be considered on duty not flying and would therefore count against your flying time!
 
There are thousands of pilots in this country that don't have and don't want to even use a transponder with mode C. They continue to fly around or under airspaces that require you to have a mode C today. That's not going to change, so how do you suspect the government will tax those folks?
 
There are also hundreds, if not thousands, of airplanes flying without any type of transponder due to their lack of electrical system.

I suspect that at some point the FAA will mandate battery powered portable transponder. The question there is, how to do you verify their installation & accuracy. With GPS, you remove the variances in static systems, so that might be the answer.
 
BTW: Mac has a good article in EAA Sport Aviation this month about "What happens if you don't add ADS-B by 2020?".

The bottom line answer, for many of us, is "nothing". Basically, you won't be able to fly anywhere that you can't fly today if you don't have a Mode C transponder.

Thus, for many pilots, the ADS-B mandate is no big deal, and doing nothing is a good option.
 
Walt said:
Jay,
Where are your skyradar and GDL39 antennas mounted?
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The two SkyRadar antennas are permanent, mounted on the bottom of the plane.

The GDL-39 antenna is the little one that comes with the unit, and is mounted inside the front cockpit, on the right side.

Surprisingly, there is no qualitative difference between reception of the two systems. That GDL-39 antenna picks up 99.9% of what the permanent antennas see, despite its less optimal location. It's a good piece of kit.
 
BCP Boys said:
There are thousands of pilots in this country that don't have and don't want to even use a transponder with mode C. They continue to fly around or under airspaces that require you to have a mode C today. That's not going to change, so how do you suspect the government will tax those folks?
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I think if you start by finding as many aircraft as you can (the new 5 year registration requirement) and then mandate a tracking system in each aircraft (ADS-B). After it's all in place, you pass a few tax laws (user fees) and there ya go. All the pieces in place. And just because ADS-B will only be required in more dense airspace that doesn't mean that it won't change to ALL (or most) airspace in the future.
 
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jjhoneck said:
The two SkyRadar antennas are permanent, mounted on the bottom of the plane.

The GDL-39 antenna is the little one that comes with the unit, and is mounted inside the front cockpit, on the right side.

Surprisingly, there is no qualitative difference between reception of the two systems. That GDL-39 antenna picks up 99.9% of what the permanent antennas see, despite its less optimal location. It's a good piece of kit.
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My Skyradar antennas are glued to the fiberglass door posts (RV10) and work just fine. I typically see multiple ground stations.
 
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