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Van's Announces S-LSA RV-12!

No one has mentioned the biggie!

S-LSA cannot get by with 3" N numbers!
OOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo!
 
morganjp said:
....I can see the tank behind the seat being a potential problem for flight schools wanting to rent and train in a 12.....
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As previously mentioned, this is actually rated as superior in a crash to leading-edge tanks by a general aviation crashworthiness design guide.

Of course that ignores the various livability aspects of the thing.

Dave
 
Nice looking!

Saw the S-LSA (and RV-14) in Palm Springs today at the AOPA conference. Sharp looking paint job... even better in person than the photos.Chatted for a few minutes with Van himself.
 
RVFlyer said:
What would be a reasonable rental rate for the RV-12? Keeping in mind the realities of rental aircraft (high insurance costs, scheduling issues, etc)....what is the amount you would be willing to pay and still afford to fly regularly?
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So for reference purposes, my flight school has a Cessna Flycatcher that was added to the fleet when they were retailing for $112K. The rental rate on that plane (wet) is $124 for club members with a prepay rate up to $144 for walk-ins.
 
SLSA

I did a number of classes with Wally at SynergyAir and have the highest respect for his workmanship and organization. I cannot think of a better outfit to partner with in this venture. Wally is a stickler for quality and a consummate teacher. This will fly! (pun intended....)

Good move Van!

Jim Frisbie
RV9A N571DF 280 hrs.
 
Flight Clubs

Rather than FBO's this plane would be awesome for flight clubs.

We tried to get an LSA 2 years back (ended up with another 172SP) and couldn't get insurance for it. I called after OSH (rumors about this overheard there) and our insurer said YES, if it happened.

I am thinking we can ditch 2 of our 4 172s for these babies and fly on pump gas.

This would be AWESOME.
 
This is great news. The S-LSA forces a higher level of rigor in reporting and resolving problems. I know E-LSA is supposed to give us the same level of support, but I believe S-LSA will get more scrutiny and therefore more customer support.
 
EFG said:
We tried to get an LSA 2 years back and couldn't get insurance for it.
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Why not? Why is it harder to get insurance for an LSA than for a larger airplane? I would be very curious to learn more about this.

Is the accident rate any worse? Is it because the airplane is more expensive? Or do insurance companies just not have enough claims data to estimate their probability and cost (i.e. to calculate what a reasonable policy should cost)?
 
I insured my 12 through Falcon. I did liability only because I thought it would be too expensive to cover the hull. I paid $300/yr, but they told me 65 K of hull coverage would only be about 1K/yr, so I plan to add hull coverage in March. FYI my Cherokee costs about 1K/yr for liability and 65K hull coverage.
 
AirShowFan said:
Why not? Why is it harder to get insurance for an LSA than for a larger airplane? I would be very curious to learn more about this.

Is the accident rate any worse? Is it because the airplane is more expensive? Or do insurance companies just not have enough claims data to estimate their probability and cost (i.e. to calculate what a reasonable policy should cost)?
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One issue, depending on the model, is that fibreglass is more expensive to repair... reflecting in the hull insurance premium.

Vans all-aluminum structure should be a big plus.
 
Once you go E though, you can never go back! Why would buying an S then modifying it into an E be better than just
buying a completed E and further modifying that? Would likely be substantially cheaper. Warranty?
 
Bill_H said:
Once you go E though, you can never go back! Why would buying an S then modifying it into an E be better than just
buying a completed E and further modifying that? Would likely be substantially cheaper. Warranty?
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No confident in building ability.
 
NCGAPilot said:
No confident in building ability.
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I think you would be very pleased with the ease of building a -12. There are quite a few parts to hand-fabricate, but to me, that's the most enjoyable part. I think you would do just fine building one! Take a builder class first (very fun and informative!) and you won't have a problem. Join your local chapter of EAA and also get help from those fellow members too!
 
Flying Club Using Factory-Built RV-12

Howdy folks. Question:

I have been building an Excel spreadsheet that analyzes the costs of forming and running a flying club. My thought is to buy one of the new RV-12 factory built models. Using the price of the optionally equipped RV-12, and including an exhaustive list of costs (insurance, hanger, legal and accounting, etc.), AND including a finance cost component (where I would provide financing for club members at 6% interest, 15-year term), I have come up with the following cost structure for a ten-member club:

. . . Initial acquisition funds: $2,532.40
. . . First year's annual membership fee (represents 1/2 the projected fixed cost totals): $1,172.01
. . . Monthly dues: $97.67
. . . Hourly flying cost (wet): $58.28

I did not skimp on including any costs I could think of including engine overhaul reserves, annuals, advertising, website costs, scheduling online tools, hangar fee, annual avionics data subscription costs, etc.

Do you think this would fly in attracting club members, or are my costs too excessive? Thanks.

Jeff Wright
St Petersburg FL
 
PlaneGuy said:
Howdy folks. Question:

I have been building an Excel spreadsheet that analyzes the costs of forming and running a flying club. My thought is to buy one of the new RV-12 factory built models. Using the price of the optionally equipped RV-12, and including an exhaustive list of costs (insurance, hanger, legal and accounting, etc.), AND including a finance cost component (where I would provide financing for club members at 6% interest, 15-year term), I have come up with the following cost structure for a ten-member club:

. . . Initial acquisition funds: $2,532.40
. . . First year's annual membership fee (represents 1/2 the projected fixed cost totals): $1,172.01
. . . Monthly dues: $97.67
. . . Hourly flying cost (wet): $58.28

I did not skimp on including any costs I could think of including engine overhaul reserves, annuals, advertising, website costs, scheduling online tools, hangar fee, annual avionics data subscription costs, etc.

Do you think this would fly in attracting club members, or are my costs too excessive? Thanks.

Jeff Wright
St Petersburg FL
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If more than 3, that is pretty expensive. I have a share of a RV-12 with 4 people total. Monthly costs (insurance, hangar, etc) are ~$100. We have no annual membership fee, since all fixed costs are covered by those monthly fees.

Our hourly flying cost is a heck of a lot cheaper too! Our maintenance reserve is $12/hr, so our hourly costs are more like $30/hr.

Now, we own the plane outright, so even if you tack the finance stuff into the monthly, I think you're pretty expensive, particularly since we can do the same out of a RV-12 with 4 people for much cheaper.
 
Thanks for your comments Erich. It would be helpful if I could upload the entire analysis (PDF or Excel format). Is that possible on this site?
 
Jeff the pdf is posted as you requested ? please add your comments

model.jpg


http://rv12pilot.com/vaf/FlyingClubAnalysis-RV12Factory.pdf
 
David,

Thanks for posting the PDF of my spreadsheet. Hopefully, folks will give me some feedback on some of my cost estimates for a flying club. Keep in mind that I am assuming the purchase of the factory-built RV-12, not the kit version, so we are talking about $115,000 (plus Florida 6% tax and other acquisition costs). Also, because it is my belief that many clubs fail due to being under capitalized, I have attempted to build in as many costs as I could think of.

Jeff Wright
St Petersburg FL
 
Now that I look at your estimates, it doesn't seem too far off. The differences between our club's costs and yours come down to a few things:

1- We built the plane, and are financing nothing (as I accounted for above)
2- Our insurance is $2k, instead of the $3k that you have
3- I have a repairman's certificate, so maintenance is labor-free. Our annual cost us about $200 this year all said and done.
 
ScottSchmidt said:
I think we will now see a lot more RV's in the hands of people that normally don't consider (Experimental) planes.
With a price of $105,000 I don't know why anyone would buy a Skycatcher at $149,000. I think Van's is very smart to go this route and attack this market quickly.
Skycatcher specs vs. RV-12 specs. It is a no brainer.
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I think I read that the C162 is not being marketed as a light sport aircraft any longer... Cessna bailed on that market.
 
I think they are re-certifying it for acceptance in European markets but it still falls into the Light Sport specs here in the states to my knowledge
 
Toobuilder said:
I think I read that the C162 is not being marketed as a light sport aircraft any longer... Cessna bailed on that market.
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I do have to be honest, it does concern me that the big names in USA Aviation are bailing out of the LSA market. Piper bailed out, Cirrus bailed out, and now it seems like Cessna is bailing out.

I hope that the smaller aircraft manufacturers won't start bailing out either, LSAs are fun to fly!
 
I have been following this very closely, and I believe all of us at Eagle's Nest are extremely happy with this announcement. As I read the posts, I see only one negative--the S-LSA RV-12 is still expensive. Keep in mind that you can get a finished RV-12 from us for MUCH less. You may have to wait a little longer, but at $70-80,000, what is a little time? We have one that will be available at $70,000 just after Oshkosh 2013. We believe it will be done earlier, but want to enter it in competition there next year. This one will have lights and be painted. Autopilot would be extra, but we can put that in for you if you let us know soon. You can see this one under construction at OVO, Indiana Airport of the Year. Others are being built. Yes, it will be an E-LSA, but if you check out EN-1, you will see that it is a nicely built plane. High School kids do a great job, and they do need the experience. Get a less expensive RV-12, and support youth aviation! PM me if you are interested.

Bob
 
Saw this at AOPA last week

Sat in it (don't remember the N number but it was this color), met Richard and will write a check for $26k next week.

I'm all in folks!
 
Welcome to VAF. You will surely enjoy the build, and you will find all the help you ever need right here!
 
RV-12 Flying Club Costs

David:

I hope I can contribute to your analysis of flying club costs.

I have been on the board of a NJ based non-profit flying club for 5 years as maintenance officer, we have 72 members with (3) 172s and (1) 182RG. I am also am a member of what I would call a small club (4 guys) in a 1941 J3-F65 Piper Cub for 3 years now. Clearly I am a big believer in shared ownership!

The major issue I would have with your numbers is that you have 10 members who will fly 750 hours / year. That isn't going to happen. The major negative of a "shared experience" is that the good hours get booked real fast (those would be the weekends). People also tend to try to fly more when costs are low and therefore end up doing lots of $100 hamburger deals and putting on like 1.4 tach per 6 hours wall clock in the core of the day. This really limits how many hours you can book per week. I am not saying that your plan is bad, I like it AND I like your organization!! What I am saying is that flying clubs need monthly dues and healthy hourly rates to survive. Also, the fluctuations in the price of AVGAS drive the wet-rate club crazy with change. It's like currency exposure to a multinational, a detail that can sink you if you don't watch it. See if you can work out a shared fuel charge account, where you do pass through billing for the fuel or you fueling guys do it for you, and fly the planes at a dry rate. We do this with the Cub, the members LOVE it. If you show up and the plane isn't full, fill it up before takeoff, send the receipt in, and we charge the other member AND we charge him 15 for the kitty for being a jerk...

Anyhow, I was the first poster to suggest the S-LSA RV-12s would be MAD for a flying club. I spoke with Synergy, our insurance agent, and Vans already and our Board is considering buying one of the first planes. It would be AWESOME!!! We tried to buy a Skycatcher, 2 years back and the insurance said NO. They have since wised up. Now a large flying club can NOT operate as an individual partnership for insurance purposes. The insurance companies insist that they obtain commercial aviation insurance. Just like a flight school or FBO. We get a discount, but it is still pretty steep. about 23K per year for our four planes and 3 claims (13K, 31K, and 12.5k) in 5 years. The Cub partnership is limited to four since that is the max that we could find a carrier who would write for a vintage tailwheel plane. So my second point would be to talk to a very knowledgable insurance agent about your plans. I would be surprised if you could obtain full insurance for 3k per year with 10 members. We have to have our 72 members audited every year with paperwork and perform a flight review with a club CFI in order to keep our rates low. I can suggest someone here in NJ but I have spoken to Falcon (EAA) and they don't like clubs.

Anyhow, hope this helps a little, if you have any questions or I can help you further, drop me a line at [email protected].

Oh yeah, I am building an RV-8 in my garage, just so the management doesn't get any ideas that this isn't EXPERIMENTAL in nature...

Ed
 
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RV-12 Flying Club Costs

A few other things:

It's about 4k plus living/housing costs and 3 full weeks to get your LSA training to be able to do your annuals and general maint. I attended a short version of this workshop by Rainbow Aviation Services (The Carpenters in CA) and you need to roll this into your startup costs. We are budgeting 6K for this. You then will have some minor recurring training costs to account for as well.

I think your 1k per year for maint is going to be a bit low, if I understand your spreadsheet correctly. These are airplanes, they are going to break on a regular basis when you push them in hard service like a flying club. I would budget more like the amount I use of 3.5K for a 172N w/o annual costs. You are going to be using lots of tires/tubes, bearings, oil filters, struts, etc at 750 hours per year / plane. We usually book the 3.5k for just 250 hours per plane.

Every new member says he is going to fly 50+ hours per year. In my five years, I saw one member do that. And it was me because of all the return to service maint flights plus my IFR training time just one year. The average member? about 1-2 tach hours per month, max and during Jan, Feb, March? maybe 1 tach hr.

Also, allow for 1-2 weeks for down time where you can't bill because you are in annual. Allow another 2 weeks per year for being down waiting for parts and such. This is a huge problem. Also consider that Vans is going to be a single source supplier for most of your airframe damage needs, if they can't supply the part, the plane doesn't fly. There is no inventory elsewhere or PMA/STC'ed parts to get around dealing with the likes of Cessna, you are going to be locked into Vans. This is currently a low volume S-LSA, not E-LSA, STCs/PMAs aren't available. Maybe one of the VAF DARs might have a different opinion?

Ed
 
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