What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Heads up about Ramp Checks

lcnmrv8r

lcnmrv8r

Active Member
ALERT!!!!!!

I was informed today that the Border Patrol has been doing Ramp Checks around here. I don't really have many details or much info yet. I will do some more checking around and update any info. But here's what I heard. There have been 3 ramp checks in my local area by Border Patrol agents. Supposedly they were Border Patrol pilots that have been authorized by the FAA to do ramp checks as the FAA is understaffed. I was told they were just checking for registrations, A/W certificates, and pilot certificates. :eek:

This is second hand info so it may be a bunch of b.s. but I thought I'd put it out there. The source is someone I consider reliable.

Make sure you've got your paperwork in order just in case.
 
Hmmm, haven't seen anyone......

yet anyway. I am flying a lot with students and haven't run across that yet. I will let you know if I see or hear more. I guess it's no big thing, every thing I fly is totally legit anyway.
 
lcnmrv8r said:
ALERT!!!!!!

I was informed today that the Border Patrol has been doing Ramp Checks around here. I don't really have many details or much info yet. I will do some more checking around and update any info. But here's what I heard. There have been 3 ramp checks in my local area by Border Patrol agents. Supposedly they were Border Patrol pilots that have been authorized by the FAA to do ramp checks as the FAA is understaffed. I was told they were just checking for registrations, A/W certificates, and pilot certificates. :eek:

This is second hand info so it may be a bunch of b.s. but I thought I'd put it out there. The source is someone I consider reliable.

Make sure you've got your paperwork in order just in case.
Click to expand...

I'm not as close to the border as you are, but we're not that far being in SoCal...

I'd tell Border Patrol to go pound sand if they wanted to see my registration, airworthiness, pilot's license, etc. As far as I know, it's the FAA that's authorized to ask for these things, not BP. If they couldn't produce a valid FAA ID, I'd close up the plane and walk away from them without saying a word.

About the most I can figure out they might be able to require of you, legally, is that you *show them* (not surrender...don't give it to them) your FAA license and a photo ID (under FAR 61.3(l)...they are a "Federal...law enforcement officer"). But as for the rest? Airworthiness certificate? Registration? Weight and balance? No way.

And I'd be certain to remember that even authorized FAA inspectors (FSDO) can't board your aircraft, or poke around inside of it, or require you to have either your logbook or the aircraft logbook with you.

Border patrol checking private planes...pshaw.
 
Powers of Border Patrol

I think this is true but can't cite chapter and verse.

The Border Patrol, within a few miles of the border, has the power to do pretty much what they please. I'm at the US-CDN border and the issue comes up occasionally. Their powers are pretty much the same as those of ICE officers who are actually at the border. I have never heard of them checking aircraft, but they can and do stop people for investigation.
 
I was once stationed at a primary training facility for the Border Patrol at Bigg's Army Airfield in El Paso.

These guys are way more serious that most military branches. I would not mess around with them because you might find yourself in a situation you don't want to be in. If anything, they could make your live miserable for a few hours.

I think they have a ton of freedom in what they are allowed to do near the border areas.
 
The Steve's agree on this one

Seems like the BP is exceeding their authority. Showing them driver's license, yes, Pilots license, maybe. AC info none of their business unless you are making a border crossing.

Unless I missed an FAR somewhere.

Law enforcement has the authority to do whatever you let them do. Closing and locking the airplane seems like a good first move. My airplane locks by combination so they actually can't get in without breaking in unless I let them.

If they insist, I'm not sure what I would do. The right thing to do is refuse, which would force them to either back down, or result in my arrest. An arrest would force the issue to a proper legal conclusion, but would be major pain.

And, stopping someone to ask for ID is an gray area. Randomly stopping people for "investigation" is not. If you are actually crossing the border then there are rules that apply to that, but I'm not aware that civil rights are somehow suspended in the vicinity of the borders. I think probable cause always applies no matter where you are.

I keep my papers in order per FARs, but I don't want to be subject to random interrogation or harassment by law enforcement. One of the main reasons I fly my own airplane is to avoid the security checks of comercial flights.
 
Not long ago I flew a Twin Commander into Weslaco Texas on an IFR flight plan (about 10 miles from the border).
About 10 minutes after arrival while sitting in the lounge waiting for our ride 2 border parol guys walked in and started asking the desk clerk about the plane. The clerk pointed to my wife and I. They came over and just started a pleasant "conversation" with us. During which time they ascertained who we were visisting, where we were staying. They already knew who we were and where we flew in from. Didn't ask for ID or ask to look at the plane.Were absolutely polite and professional. Guess we did not fit the profile of smugglers of human cargo.


Apparently after we left they returned with dogs and walked around the plane. The dog handler was wearing plain clothes.
 
I was at an airport around dusk one evening and a pilot landing his single engine plane just as the airport was closing down. He landed and slowed his plane down and started to turn around and head back to the ramp area. Before he could complete the turn around a black King Air (landed almost undetected was now facing him on the runway. Out they came with GUNS in hand. They tore this guy?s plane apart for hours. The story I got, he forgot or didn?t clear with customs (Mexico Inbound USA). He was a business owner in the local community, also was a little embarrassed. These guys in the King Air were not FAA.
 
Not to look down on anybody's parade or anything, but, I say "so what!" I'm legal in every way, so why should I care? I hope everybody else is also.
 
Know your rights

allbee said:
Not to look down on anybody's parade or anything, but, I say "so what!" I'm legal in every way, so why should I care? I hope everybody else is also.
Click to expand...

If you haven't reviewed the FAR recently, now would be a good chance to brush up on ramp checks and make sure you are legal.

http://www.mmlane.com/flying/CFI Folder/how to conduct a ramp check_2_056_00.pdf

Keep in mind that a law enforcement officers under the scope of their authority probably have the right to conduct a ramp check and you should know more than they do since they are not from the FAA.

Ironically, one you've been approached, they hold the future of your pilot's license in their hand (at least short term). It's like being blue-lighted for speeding. Much easier to be polite and get a warning than a jerk and a $500 ticket.

I've been ramp checked once. The man was HUGE but nice as he could be. From the Sheriff's office and he wanted to know more about how to fly than doing the ramp check. It turned out there had been a hanger broken into and he was there to make sure that people past the gate belonged. He asked for my drivers license, pilots license, and medical license.

My 2 cents worth.

I just had a horrible thought, what if DR got ramp checked on that pink scooter?
 
I was ramp checked once...

by my wife's uncle who retired from the FAA a year or two ago. :D

He was very impressed by the RV and was disapointed his hip was hurting because he couldn't get in for a ride.

He was very impressed by how quickly the -9 got off the ground and climbed for having only 135 HP and said when we take it to OK he WILL go for a ride.

He also said it was the first time he had seen and RV that wasn't full of dents. Kind of makes me wonder about the planes he had signed off while with the FAA.
 
I spent ten years as Border Patrol agent, and I’ll try my best to clarify a few things.

Unfortunately, the Border Patrol no longer has it own Air Unit. When the Department of Homeland Security was created, the Border Patrol and US Customs air branches merged into a new agency, CBP Air.

Yes, CBP Air Interdiction Agents (I.E. pilots) are Federal Law Enforcement officers under FAR 61….

However, they are also called “immigration officers.” Without going into too much detail (reading the FARs is WAY more exciting than reading Immigration law) the “ramp check” searches you describe aren’t really ramp checks.

Yes, “Immigration Officers” (and “Customs Officers”) do have broad search authority, and how much authority they have depends on where you’re physically at and where you’ve come from. You have border searches, extended border searches, functional equivalent of the border searches, searches conducted within 100 air miles of the border searches within 25 miles of the border, fixed immigration check point searches, customs waters, international waters etc….. the list goes on and on. Their authority to search specifically includes “any conveyance.” Some, not all, but SOME of these searches require no probable cause and the courts have held the 4th Amendment does not apply or is limited.

In my personal experience from its peak in the ‘80s and ‘90s, aviation smuggling is once again on the rise. With the increase CBP officers, Border Patrol Agents, the National Guard etc. it is becoming increasingly harder to smuggle any contraband on our southern borders. Smugglers are constantly looking for new means to move their cargo.

My point is, and please, I’m not trying to start a “who’s right or who’s wrong war” since VAF is a great place of friends: if a search is conducted by a CBP pilot of you or your plane, it isn’t under FAA authority (most likely) it would be done under a border search authority.

Finally, any search or use of government authority that isn’t an excuse for any Agent to behave in an unacceptable manner. In any search YOU should be treated fairly, professionally and respectfully by those agents!
 
Last edited:
Ok, lets make a list of things that we should be carrying in our aircraft.

These are what come to mind.

AW cert
pilot license
medical(non sport pilot)
registration for aircraft
limitations
POH
picture ID

Don't forget you need to display AWcert and registration in sight in the cabin area.

IF there are more please post.
 
allbee said:
Not to look down on anybody's parade or anything, but, I say "so what!" I'm legal in every way, so why should I care? I hope everybody else is also.
Click to expand...

You being legal here is NOT the question. It's "They" who also need to be legal here. We keep getting preached at about this being a country of Law, well, let's make sure the Law is right.
This "So What" attitude has eroded so much of our individual freedom we should not just roll on any more of it.
 
You being legal here is NOT the question. It's "They" who also need to be legal here. We keep getting preached at about this being a country of Law, well, let's make sure the Law is right.
This "So What" attitude has eroded so much of our individual freedom we should not just roll on any more of it.
Click to expand...

TOUCHE' !!

Back to flying...
And if I'm not mistaken, a sport pilot, or someone flying under those rules, needs to carry his/her logbook.
 
"surrender" you license?

I have been ramp checked once and am still uncertain about the matter of "surrendering" your pilot license. I've always read that we should never surrender our license unless dictated by law enforcement officials.

What does "surrendering" mean? Is it an official relinquishing of the license or does it mean letting the license physically leave your hand?

During my ramp check, I took this literally and when asked for my license, I held it in my hand the entire time so the FAA inspector could read the info on it. I did not hand the license to him. He seemed a little amused and said "I would have given it back to you" but he didn't have any problems with the way I handled it.

Is this what is meant by not surrendering our license or did I take this too literally? Keeping the plastic card in my hand certainly made me feel better, and I got the impression (based on how other checks were conducted at the same time) that the inspector felt I was pretty up to speed on my rights. The check was just a matter of copying down my bio info and tail number then he moved on. I didn't ask any questions about the reason for the check, just "name, rank, and serial number". Another pilot that day wasn't so fortunate (left his wallet with his license and medical at home...oh.....and the aileron roll as he departed the pattern sure didn't help matters.....50 days suspension).
 
Last edited:
Surrender would imply that you are voluntarily giving up the privileges of the certificate. I will SHOW a law enforcement officer my certificate all day long, but he will NOT take it from my possession, mainly because I don't want him to think he has the authority to 'hold onto it' for awhile. As far as I know ANY federal, state, or local law enforcement officer can 'ramp' check an airmen, but not an aircraft. On what basis would they ground it?
 
Sam,

If I remember correctly, there is some case law behind the meaning of "surrendering your license".

Some time back an FAA guy asked a pilot if he could see his license. The pilot handed over the license and the FAA guy kept it, saying the pilot had "surrendered" it to him. If I remember correctly, this went to court and it was ruled that the FAA had acted improperly and that handing a license over for inspection is not the same as surrendering it.

I could be wrong on this as that case happened probably 15 years ago.

Still, I would have done exactly what you did.

Maybe someone else remembers this case and can clarify the details.
 
The entire scenario begs the question that I keep coming back to, just who is the enemy?

Personally, until I feel I am going to be arrested (which maybe a foregone conclusion by any federal police approaching me anyway), I will politely refuse any searches of my plane or person. There's nothing to gain and much to loose by willingly permiting a search.

As for the FAA approaching me while not strapped in and running, I will immediately cancel any planned flight and pull the plane back into the hangar or delay my flight until the individuals have left the airport. I have been ramp checked and also dealt with investigations by safety inspectors (and came away with no actions or violations). These folks are not your friend when you are the subject of their investigation or even when they are in your presence while on duty (breathing). Keep your mouth shut and be polite. Present only what you have to at the time.

Wasn't asked for my certificate on the ramp check I encountered. But I would also probably not hand my certificate to the inspector either. On that deal, the FAA set the rules of engagement, not the pilots.

2 cents
 
Last edited:
We are not talking about "ramp checks" here

Phil gave a good explanation of the powers of the BP. One important point that seems to be missed is that if BP, DEA or Barney Fife is asking questions and searching airplanes, this is not a "ramp check" in the sense that we are used to, and to discus it in these terms clouds the issue. This is a law enforcement investigative detention more akin to a traffic stop than a "ramp check" from the FAA.

The rules and laws governing what cops can and can't do in these situations can and has filled numerous law books, but here are a couple basics:

They can, without any probably cause, on a mere hunch, walk up to you and start asking questions, including who you are, what you are up to etc. If they have nothing more than a hunch, than they cannot detain you if you tell them to pound sand and walk away.

They can, with reasonable articulable suspicion that you are up to no good, detain you, by force if necessary, to investigate these suspicions. With probable cause, they can search you and your airplane (or car) and place you under arrest.

The BP could care less if you have 3 takeoff/ landings in 90 days or if your AD compliance is up to snuff. They are looking into potential criminal activity.
 
Last edited:
allbee said:
Ok, lets make a list of things that we should be carrying in our aircraft.

These are what come to mind.

AW cert
pilot license
medical(non sport pilot)
registration for aircraft
limitations
POH
picture ID

Don't forget you need to display AWcert and registration in sight in the cabin area.

IF there are more please post.
Click to expand...

No POH is required for amateur-built aircraft, unless I'm missing something.
 
allbee said:
Not to look down on anybody's parade or anything, but, I say "so what!" I'm legal in every way, so why should I care? I hope everybody else is also.
Click to expand...

You no doubt have nothing illegal in your house, either...so "so what" if the cops want to come in anytime they feel like it and search it? You probably don't have anything illegal on your person, so "so what" if they stop you for no reason while walking down the street and pat you down?

I agree with the other poster..."I'm not doing anything wrong, so whatever the authorities want to do is okay" is destroying our rights and freedoms.

On another topic here...I've always read and been taught that handing your license to the FAA (or its designee) per part 61 can be considered "surrendering" your license, and that you should never do it. Show it to them and let them see it, but that's it, don't hand it to them with the expectation they will hand it back.

AND...while a search based on probable cause (and not clearing customs properly sure would be) is legal, "ramp checks", or whatever you want to call them, by non-FAA agencies would elicit quite a bit of pushback from me...I have to show them my license and ID per the FARs, but I don't have to show them anything else, and I don't have to let them search my aircraft without probable cause or a warrant...if they persisted, so would I, right on up the chain of command and involving other (local) police agencies if necessary.
 
Last edited:
Sam Buchanan said:
I have been ramp checked once and am still uncertain about the matter of "surrendering" your pilot license. I've always read that we should never surrender our license unless dictated by law enforcement officials.

What does "surrendering" mean? Is it an official relinquishing of the license or does it mean letting the license physically leave your hand?

During my ramp check, I took this literally and when asked for my license, I held it in my hand the entire time so the FAA inspector could read the info on it. I did not hand the license to him. He seemed a little amused and said "I would have given it back to you" but he didn't have any problems with the way I handled it.

Is this what is meant by not surrendering our license or did I take this too literally? Keeping the plastic card in my hand certainly made me feel better, and I got the impression (based on how other checks were conducted at the same time) that the inspector felt I was pretty up to speed on my rights. The check was just a matter of copying down my bio info and tail number then he moved on. I didn't ask any questions about the reason for the check, just "name, rank, and serial number". Another pilot that day wasn't so fortunate (left his wallet with his license and medical at home...oh.....and the aileron roll as he departed the pattern sure didn't help matters.....50 days suspension).
Click to expand...

I would have held on to my license also, in fact I would have first asked for his badge, they for sure wouldn't have let you hold it, they would have let you see it, but they would have kept hold of it. If given a reason for not letting them have the license, then you can come back and say, "you wouldn't let me hold yours."
 
Now before we get in a tizzy on things. I posted I didn't care cause I don't. strickly because I am legal. I read the post and thought, oh boy, people are flying without the required paperwork, ie. no pilots license, no aircraft registration, totally illegal type of things. Nothing other than those thoughts. Don't push it into not caring that we are getting violated and rights taken away and such.
 
Which agency "protects and serves" our rights?..(OT a bit)

Not long ago, a Homeland Security van parked in a handicap zone at the car dealership where I work. Two guys stayed in the van while two went to the parts/service counter. After about 5 minutes, a part-time employee of ours pulled in the lot with his wife, who is physically disabled. They sat in the car for a few minutes waiting for that spot to open up. I happened by and saw what was going on and approached the van. Both occupants were on their phones, so I just pointed to the "Handicap" sign (directly in front of the driver) then to the car waiting for the spot. The driver glared at me with disdain as he pulled out his badge and pointed at it. I was walking inside to call the local police as the two guys who had been at the parts counter walked out. They got in and left before I got to the phone.

I have often wondered what would have happened had the locals shown up while the Feds were still in that spot. I have also wondered how much attention I would have subsequently received from the Department of Homeland Security...

Roger
-9A slow QB
La Grande Oregon
 
allbee said:
Ok, lets make a list of things that we should be carrying in our aircraft.

These are what come to mind.

AW cert
pilot license
medical(non sport pilot)
registration for aircraft
limitations
POH
picture ID

Don't forget you need to display AWcert and registration in sight in the cabin area.

IF there are more please post.
Click to expand...

If it is an FAA ramp check, they can ask to see the current W&B, the ELT battery, and that you are carrying current charts for the type of flight planned.
 
allbee said:
I would have first asked for his badge, they for sure wouldn't have let you hold it, they would have let you see it, but they would have kept hold of it.
Click to expand...

Ha, that is a good point. You would be surprised to see the back of the badge actually says "this badge conveys no authority without proper credentials." You'd also be surprised to see that they look and feel like something out of a cracker jack box!

And yes even in full uniform, if you ask they must show you credentials. Your welcome to hold mine! :D
 
allbee said:
Now before we get in a tizzy on things. I posted I didn't care cause I don't. strickly because I am legal. I read the post and thought, oh boy, people are flying without the required paperwork, ie. no pilots license, no aircraft registration, totally illegal type of things. Nothing other than those thoughts. Don't push it into not caring that we are getting violated and rights taken away and such.
Click to expand...

I'm legal in every way when I fly, as well, and I DO care. Same when I'm driving, or walking down the street, or sitting in my house. Sorry if I misinterpreted you, but it seemed pretty clear...you're "legal in every way, so why should [you] care?"

We should care *especially* if we're "legal in every way"...I, for one, don't want to live in a country were people have abdicated their right to be free from unreasonable searches, where the bromide that "if it keeps us safe, I guess it's okay" is an excuse for "the authorities" to stop, search and detain anyone they want for any reason (or no reason) at all.

Don't know about anyone else, but *I* value my freedom, even on a small scale such as this.
 
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either.
Benjamin Franklin
 
Eh?

N1593Y said:
If it is an FAA ramp check, they can ask to see the current W&B, the ELT battery, and that you are carrying current charts for the type of flight planned.
Click to expand...

I am assuming that if you are flying VFR cross country there is no requirement for carrying a sectional..If your carrying an out of date sectional, is there a rule about that?

Of course IFR you need the current chart, approach plates and your GPS has to be up to date IF you just flew the GPS approach into the airport you just landed at..of course, if you flew the ILS in theory your GPS doesn't have to be up to date 'cus you didn't use it..:)

Frank
 
allbee said:
I would have held on to my license also, in fact I would have first asked for his badge, they for sure wouldn't have let you hold it, they would have let you see it, but they would have kept hold of it. If given a reason for not letting them have the license, then you can come back and say, "you wouldn't let me hold yours."
Click to expand...

The first thing the FAA dude did was flash a quite impressive looking badge. I just assumed it was the real deal. ;)

I was not going to give him my license. Guess I would have just politely declined if be pushed the situation but he no doubt knew not to do that.

This occurred at a private strip which brings up all sorts of questions (does a traffic pattern exist at a strip not shown on a sectional chart??) The FAA guy was there due to complaints from a neighbor about low-flying aircraft and he was "disguised" in slouchy clothes and driving a personal vehicle (it was a Saturday). Really interesting situation....
 
frankh said:
I am assuming that if you are flying VFR cross country there is no requirement for carrying a sectional..If your carrying an out of date sectional, is there a rule about that?
Click to expand...
I've read accounts where people have been held accountable for having out of date navigational reference (out of date VFR sectionals) onboard, whether used or not. As soon as I bring a sectional onboard, I mark write over the date block "for reference only." Will that prevent a problem? Not sure, but it's what I do.
 
OK folks, I'll bring up the Catch-22. I wouldn't know what is a "real" Government ID vs. a fake one.
FAA, FBI, BP, ATF, DEA, Homeland Security or Dept. of Agriculture its all an act of faith on my part as I don't regularly see such paperwork. I would depend on the other signals ie. vehicle with gov't plates, handheld radio, uniform that I recognise, do I know him/her(I did know my neighbor the FCC guy).
If these type of "checks" are going to be frequent, some more education is in order; or they will only get yup and nope from me.
H
 
Well, in theory, sometime in the near future all Federal IDs will look the same (reference Homeland Security Presidential Directive 12...don't ask how I know about this bit of silliness). As of today, however, most of the federal agencies have not complied, and still have their own IDs. Local authorities are all over the map, of course.

I wouldn't just accept a casual flip of the badge, either...I want to see the *ID Card* that goes with it (every time I've met with federal agents, for things like security clearance interviews and such, the first thing they show me is that ID card).

But you're right...you'd have to rely on the badge, the ID card, and several other cues, plus the fact that impersonating a law enforcement officer is itself a crime, to gain confidence that they are who they say they are...
 
Federal Agents

One thing everyone needs to know and NEVER fail to follow is that if ANY federal agent shows you his badge it becomes a federal offense to give such federal agent ANY false answer or information.

Many people have gone to jail (example Martha Stewart) for providing false information to a federal agent after they identify themselves.

The best bet is to respond truthfully to any question by either answering such question or stating that I respectfully refuse to answer any further quetions without my attonrey being present. Yes, I am a lawyer but most people don't hold it against me.
 
Flying Scotsman said:
I wouldn't just accept a casual flip of the badge, either...I want to see the *ID Card* that goes with it (every time I've met with federal agents, for things like security clearance interviews and such, the first thing they show me is that ID card).
Click to expand...
Ask him/her for a business card. They should have them ready to hand out. This way you know who you spoke to, should you need to contact them later.
 
FBI ID

I don't know about other government branches but the FBI ID's are sewn shut. I have a friend that works for them and his ID can't be removed from the protective leather cover. It is bifold and stitched up.
 
allbee said:
Not to look down on anybody's parade or anything, but, I say "so what!" I'm legal in every way, so why should I care? I hope everybody else is also.
Click to expand...

Oh heill no!!! I urge you to brush up on the 4th ammendment. It is a sad state of affairs when we are so willing to give up our civil rights.

I can see being asked for documentation or even a search (only if there is probable cause) if you have crossed the border; but not under ANY other circumtances. If it came to it, I would allow them to arrest me, and as much as I dislike what they do often, I would contact the ACLU. That should even up the pucker factor.
 
Very interesting. My comment: hmmmmm.

POH: I don't carry one.

I've actually been more worried about someone grounding my plane because of my polished prop than busting me for not having my paperwork displayed correctly in the cockpit. I've never actually been ramp checked...yet.
 
POH

groucho said:
Very interesting. My comment: hmmmmm.

POH: I don't carry one.

I've actually been more worried about someone grounding my plane because of my polished prop than busting me for not having my paperwork displayed correctly in the cockpit. I've never actually been ramp checked...yet.
Click to expand...

I believe the POH (aka Airplane Flight Manual) is only needed on certified planes if required by the Type Data Certificate. This became a requirement around 1979.

An example can be seen in the Tiger TDC:-

Equipment The basic equipment prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulations (see Certificate Basis) must be installed in the airplane for certification.
In addition, the Pilot Operating Handbook/Airplane Flight Manual is required as follows:
? Airplane Flight Manual dated February 26, 1979, is required for the following
aircraft:
Model AA-5A: S/N 0729, 0741, 0745, 0750, 0754, 0766, 0770, 0774, 0791,
0826 and subsequent.
Model AA-5B: S/N 0973, 0975, 1021, 1029, 1088, 1092, 1101, 1103, 1104,
1108 and subsequent.

I don't believe it's a specific requirement for our Experimentals.
 
az_gila said:
I believe the POH (aka Airplane Flight Manual) is only needed on certified planes if required by the Type Data Certificate. This became a requirement around 1979.
Click to expand...
Sounds good to me. If I had to find my POH, well, ummm...hmmmm.
 
You don't need to carry a POH. You don't even need to have a POH, technically. What you do need to have, and to carry, is your original operating limitations and your weight and balance data. Many but not all of us incorporate this data into a POH but it's not required.
 
I'm not an attorney but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night.

So my opinion in this well discussed issue is that we need to distinguish who is coming up to you on the ramp.

A ramp check should be performed by the FAA official and is controlled by FAA rules. The FAA official should be allowed to see all pilot and aircraft documents per the FAR's.

When a Border patrol, Homeland Security, FBI, Police officer or anyone else in law enforcement comes up to you on the ramp, it is my opinion that they are looking at whether you are legally supposed to be there or whether you are doing or planning something illegal.

The law enforcement officials should have the right to question you as well as check your ID, and you are obligated to truthfully answer their questions and provide some form of identification. As far as searching/inspecting the aircraft, it is my opinion that this falls under the same laws as any other vehicle. They need probable cause to search your vehicle without your permission. Of course if you refuse, they can certainly ruin your day, but you should have the same rights as when you are in your car or on the street.

That is the way I see things
 
"Cursed if you do and cursed if you dont

If this country were under seize by a foreign power every pilot flying would be willing to cooperate with the people who protect our borders so that we don't loose our freedom to fly without restriction. If you remember on September 11 and almost 3 weeks after there was no flying VFR in the United States. Customs Border Protection Pilots are charged with ferroting out crime. You would be stunned at the number of aircraft flying drugs and aliens in the United States Every Day. When you drive (for example) from Big Bend National Park to Dallas Texas you will encounter a border patrol checkpoint about 80 miles north of the border. You will stop and an agent will ask you a few questions and you will be on your way. In my and my wifes case, we have to answer more questions because my wife was born in Ecuador but still a naturalized citizen.
Because of that border patrol checkpoint illegal aliens are willing to pay a pilot to pick them up for instance at the Terlingua airport so they can bypass the highway checkpoint. Believe me, if Al Qaeda wants to enter the country to do us harm they have the ability to have an airplane to pick them up and carry them anywhere they want to go. An educated and diligent citizenry has a moral duty to protect our borders. If I were asked a question by a CBP pilot I would answer his question, thank him for his service and ask him for a business card with a number so that if I see "dangerous illegal activity" I can call him. The federal government is overbearing and we are over regulated as a society, however we should recognize what restricts our freedom and what does not. More terrorists attacks and more illegal activity restricts our freedom. The majority of the public demands more restrictions when attacks happen and the general public does not give a hoot about your freedom to fly. Use common sense. If you have a problem with the government, harass your federal and state elected representatives not the guy at the bottom, he is just doing his job.
 
Border Patrol

I personally wouldn't find it offensive if an Agent with the proper ID asked me about my acft registration etc. We've had aircraft stolen off our field, Marana Regional (AVQ), AZ in the past. We're within 100 miles of the Mexico border and I'm sure their just doing their jobs and I like to think they are concerned with local problems. Drug and illegal immigrant traffic in southern AZ is out of control. Three weeks ago the local police were cruising the ramp checking out folks, althought they were'nt asking for registrations or ID. If you don't have anything to hide, why would you mind?
Charlie, Tucson AZ
RV-7
 
Webb said:
If you haven't reviewed the FAR recently, now would be a good chance to brush up on ramp checks and make sure you are legal.

http://www.mmlane.com/flying/CFI Folder/how to conduct a ramp check_2_056_00.pdf

My 2 cents worth.

I just had a horrible thought, what if DR got ramp checked on that pink scooter?
Click to expand...

The ABOVE link is to a part of an FAA Order (8700.1) that was CANCELED 12/17/2004. FAA Order 8700.1 was replaced with 8900.1. 8900.1 Volume 6 Section 4 covers Ramp Checks.

IMHO, this ramp check link info is inaccurate as it still asks for a radio station license for the airplane. You do not need one unless you are flying INTERNATIONALLY. Homebuilts cannot fly internationally unless they get permission from the country they are overflying or visiting. Yes I have a Radio Operators license and a Radio Station License for my airplane. The airplane and I have been to Canada and the Bahamas. When I got my pilot license, the radio operator license was required. Yes I have been flying and a member of AOPA for more than 25-years.

I would not be afraid to bet that most homebuilders do not know that a POH is NOT required and that they would fail meeting FAR 91.207 (d). I do not believe that most REPAIRMEN know how to test the ELT "G" switch. It must be done once a year. It also needs to be recorded. (ie: Logbook entry or recordered on the condition inspection checklist and the checklist keep as a record till after the next recorded inspection.) I was RAMP checked at Nellis Air Force Base and asked about 91.207 compliance. I knew about it and have an entry on both my Condition Inspection Checklist and in my logbook.

61.51 states
"(i) Presentation of required documents.
(1) Persons must present their pilot certificate, medical certificate, logbook, or any other record required by this part for inspection upon a reasonable request by--
(i) The Administrator;
(ii) An authorized representative from the National Transportation Safety Board; or
(iii) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer."

13.17 covers Seizure of aircraft and a LOCAL law enforcement officer MUST be authorized to do that.

This information may only be worth what you paid for it. My association with the FAA is by Appointment. I do know my way around the bureaucracy and how to find info in the system. This info is only to inform you of what you are required to do and have with links to FAA web sites that have the info. Anyone can say anything on the internet like I just did.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top