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Build Before PPL?

skelrad

Well Known Member
Friend
After more false starts than I can count, I think I’m ready to pull the financial trigger and start building. I don’t have my PPL (started, then moved too far from the airport to make it work on top of my job). What are the reasons building over the next 3-5 years before even getting my PPL would be idiotic? I’m a nomad, so will probably have moved closer to an airport by then.

I love to build, so if circumstances never let me finish my PPL, I would still count the hours in the shop as great entertainment for a few years, even if I had to sell at a bit of a loss. My hope of course would be to hammer out the license towards the end of the build and then have a plane of my own. I’m likely going to build a 9A since I’d be a new pilot when it’s done.

I’m guessing insurance would be a nightmare if I’m a freshly minted pilot, and I couldn’t even train in the 9 if I wanted to since I couldn’t fly off the initial 40 hrs myself. Has anyone else built before getting your PPL? What big gotchas do I need to think about for this scenario? Am I crazy? I’ve just started and stopped this dream of building so many times, I really want to finally get moving on it!
 
If you love building then build away! Im sure plenty of people love building these aircraft more than they love flying them, and loads of people talk about the "empty workshop" syndrome when the bird has final flown the nest. You just have to look on here at the amount of people who have built 3 or 4 of these things to release that, for a lot of builders its the building, not the flying that they really enjoy.
 
Agreed

If you love building then build away! Im sure plenty of people love building these aircraft more than they love flying them, and loads of people talk about the "empty workshop" syndrome when the bird has final flown the nest. You just have to look on here at the amount of people who have built 3 or 4 of these things to release that, for a lot of builders its the building, not the flying that they really enjoy.

Furthermore, there are instructors, myself being one, who’d gladly instruct in your RV-9. It is also allowed by regulations and there are examiners who’d give you your PPL check ride in the airplane you built!

Build on,
 
It can be done in your plane

A local friend of ours just purchased a flying 6A and is getting his PPL in it. He had a few hours in a 172, but did his solo recently in his 6A and is well on his way to having his PPL. In your case, the build project may take way longer than you think (most do), and waiting to train in it may loose its luster. While I was building my -4, I bought a 1/3 interest in an old Taylorcraft for very little $ and logged 350 hrs. of TW time in it.
 
lots of people who don't know how to fly have built airplanes. Clyde Cessna comes to mind....

If you think it will be a fun project, then go for it. You have a significant amout of time during the build where you are buying subkits one at a time, so it's not until you get to the engine/avionics part of the process that you really have to get out the checkbook in a big way all at once.

Up until that point, if you decide it's not for you, then you can sell the airframe components and recoup at least part of your initial investment. The going rate seems to be about 50%-75% of the original kit cost.
 
I built before PPL

After more false starts than I can count, I think I’m ready to pull the financial trigger and start building. I don’t have my PPL (started, then moved too far from the airport to make it work on top of my job). What are the reasons building over the next 3-5 years before even getting my PPL would be idiotic? I’m a nomad, so will probably have moved closer to an airport by then.

I love to build, so if circumstances never let me finish my PPL, I would still count the hours in the shop as great entertainment for a few years, even if I had to sell at a bit of a loss. My hope of course would be to hammer out the license towards the end of the build and then have a plane of my own. I’m likely going to build a 9A since I’d be a new pilot when it’s done.

I’m guessing insurance would be a nightmare if I’m a freshly minted pilot, and I couldn’t even train in the 9 if I wanted to since I couldn’t fly off the initial 40 hrs myself. Has anyone else built before getting your PPL? What big gotchas do I need to think about for this scenario? Am I crazy? I’ve just started and stopped this dream of building so many times, I really want to finally get moving on it!

I built my RV9A before PPL Brandon. I started hammering flying lessons when I moved my project to the airport for final assembly. Had a checkride in a 152 couple weeks after getting airworthiness certificate.

I had a set of unique circumstances in post 9/11 world. Mostly immigration and it worked out fine. Had a job in NYC and was driving to Princeton airport pretty much every other day. Over an hour drive one way no traffic. If I could do it anybody can.

You have very positive attitude. Do it.
 
We started our first airplane (a KitFox) before I had my PPL. My wife already had hers. All of my formal instruction, solo flights, and check ride were in the KitFox. A bonus of taking my check ride in it was that I didn’t need a “tail wheel” endorsement :) The only insurance issue came up after I had soloed. My insurance agent told me the underwriter would not likely go along with a student pilot flying solo without a substantial rate increase. This was actually a good thing to be told because it forced me to work harder and finish my PPL. This was almost 25 years ago. Things may have changed since then regarding insurance.

Danny
 
I started my -6 as a student pilot

...and got my tailwheel endorsement in it. Not that uncommon in the RV world. Go get 'um!

v/r,dr
 
A minor drawback of starting before your license is you may not know what you like in a plane. For example, it’s easier to know you want to invest in an IFR panel if either you have an instrument rating and regularly use it, or know your mission is VFR.

Similarly I left out the parking brake from my build because I’ve only used one once in more than a decade of certified aircraft for ownership. My buddy knows he likes to set his brake and so he installed one.

As you build you will find friends and mentors who can help with these kinds of decisions. If you start lessons soonish you will have your own experience to guide you by the time you get to the big decisions.

Being nomadic is perhaps a harder challenge. It’s a lot of work to move a workshop and aircraft. I wouldn’t enjoy doing that regularly. I’ve been a bit of a Covid nomad this year and am leaving my plane in the hangar while working from a cabin or beach house.

David
 
I see no reason to not start building now if that is what you want to do.
 
It seems like most of folks that replied to your question are encouraging you to go ahead and build. I'd like to add a counter point.

How much time to you have flying in small planes with friends or family? I ask this because are you sure you will enjoying flying a small plane?

When I did my PPL there were a number of students that started and quit before getting the PPL. It was interesting because a couple of them picked up the flying part quickly. As you will learn when you get your PPL, there is a lot more to flying then just airplane handling skills.

I know one person that got his PPL but quit flying a few months after getting it. I also know someone (that did not have his PPL) who built a very nice -7A and sold it just before the plane was ready to get its AWC.

So my suggestion is to start working on you PPL before getting too heavily invested in building. Learn to land on rented flight school airplane. When you switch to flying an RV, you'll appreciate it even more.
 
It seems like most of folks that replied to your question are encouraging you to go ahead and build. I'd like to add a counter point.

How much time to you have flying in small planes with friends or family? I ask this because are you sure you will enjoying flying a small plane?

When I did my PPL there were a number of students that started and quit before getting the PPL. It was interesting because a couple of them picked up the flying part quickly. As you will learn when you get your PPL, there is a lot more to flying then just airplane handling skills.

I know one person that got his PPL but quit flying a few months after getting it. I also know someone (that did not have his PPL) who built a very nice -7A and sold it just before the plane was ready to get its AWC.

So my suggestion is to start working on you PPL before getting too heavily invested in building. Learn to land on rented flight school airplane. When you switch to flying an RV, you'll appreciate it even more.

I agree with this approach. I've had too many friends who "wanted to be pilots" and quit after 10 hours of dual instruction. Get the license. If flying is something you enjoy, buy or build (or rent) an airplane.
 
Thanks!

I appreciate all of these perspectives. More people have taken the build before PPL approach than I realized. I was mostly concerned about the logistics, but it sounds doable given the right motivation and planning.

I have definitely thought a lot about the concern that I could build, then get my license and subsequently realize flying isn't for me. I grew up flying in small planes, so I know I'm comfortable in them at least. I started to get my PPL about 5 years ago, but only got a handful of hours before life put a pin in it. I could start back up with lessons now, but my worry is that with building a plane and being a 1+ hour drive from the airport right now, I wouldn't be able to fly enough to stay proficient/safe.

It sounds like building first is very possible as long as I'm willing to take the chance that at the end of it all I may say "not for me" and have to sell the plane. That would be a bummer, but at the same time, I would have had years of fun in the shop versus sitting in front of the TV at night, so there's that.

Thanks for all the input. It's really helpful.
 
Build before PPL

My discovery was similar as I had a nagging desire to build for some reason and I wasn't a pilot. ...must have been all the RVs around Fort Worth (Hicks, NW Regional, Pecan Plantation)! I discovered there were several others that had similar desires to build but were not pilots. A few active folks on VAF provided confirmation and inspiration as they were in the process of building.

My story has since had some unexpected and expected twists and turns. As of the first week of June 2020 I have my PPL. Plus a C172 purchased from someone here that built a RV-10. I also have a -14A empennage kit sitting untouched - untouched partially due to the time requirements of learning to fly. We are now between homes and everything is STUFFED in to storage as we sold our home with workshop in Texas and are moving back to the Pacific Northwest. Hopefully we will soon be back in a place that will accommodate starting on that kit!

In retrospect, the time commitment for all the things in life and building is the challenge. If building is something you really want to do, and you can dedicate the time, go for it! If you are short on one of the two maybe not.
 
My 7A was about a year from completion when I got my PPL. Was flying a rented Cherokee 180 regularly for the last year of the build. That worked very well for me. Was current, and had a great idea of the panel layout i wanted before completion. I have heard of others that get a PPL and basically put it on hold for a few years for the build because of time and financial constraints.
 
An aero club is another option to join while you are building. It is more economical than just renting and you meet good people too. Could also help with networking when your ready for needing instruction in your bird.

We belong to a great club in N. TX that have 4 seat airplanes. We use them when we have more than just the 2 of us.
 
I'd start building. I'm sure you could find an instructor willing to fly with you, especially if your build is nice..
 
Furthermore, there are instructors, myself being one, who’d gladly instruct in your RV-9. It is also allowed by regulations and there are examiners who’d give you your PPL check ride in the airplane you built!

Build on,

I'd love to get instruction in my own plane, but doesn't it have to be flown for a certain number of hours solo after getting the AWC before taking additional passengers? So wouldn't I have to get my PPL in another plane since by nature of not having my PPL I couldn't fly off the hours in the RV to take someone else up to give me that instruction? Or is taking an instructor in that fly off period allowable?
 
I'd love to get instruction in my own plane, but doesn't it have to be flown for a certain number of hours solo after getting the AWC before taking additional passengers? So wouldn't I have to get my PPL in another plane since by nature of not having my PPL I couldn't fly off the hours in the RV to take someone else up to give me that instruction? Or is taking an instructor in that fly off period allowable?

In this scenario, you'd have to be willing to let someone else fly off the time.
 
Since you like to build, build! Desire to build is the primary ingredient needed to finish an airplane project. The wings and tail don’t take a lot of room to build or store and are easy to move. They will take over a year to build and probably several years with a job and flying lesions. They also should be easier to sell if you decide flying is not your thing. The fuselage is the fun part and by that time you should be flying and have some idea how you want the panel, engine and other details.
A one hr drive to the airport should not stop you from getting instruction at least once a week. Keep in mind after you start flying your mission can change, aerobatics, gliders, speed, backcountry etc.
 
Many builders that start building find it hard to both fly and build. Hard to balance life, building and staying current.
Building ahead of the PPL isn't a bad idea since you will have more time to build and not have to worry about staying current.
 
I'd love to get instruction in my own plane, but doesn't it have to be flown for a certain number of hours solo after getting the AWC before taking additional passengers? So wouldn't I have to get my PPL in another plane since by nature of not having my PPL I couldn't fly off the hours in the RV to take someone else up to give me that instruction? Or is taking an instructor in that fly off period allowable?

Since you’re still on the steep part of the learning curve on this (and I think that building before getting your PPL is a perfectly acceptable idea BTW), I’ll point out that when you finish an Experimental, it will be in “Phase 1” testing for most likely 40 hours (there is an option for 25, but that’s rarely issued these days). During this time, you are not “flying off the hours” - you are testing the airplane. A good, decent test program, done purposefully, can take most of those 40 hours. Yes, some people just go and fly the same hour forty times, learning nothing about the airplane, but that is not the intent of Phase 1.

And also yes - you can have an additional pilot in the airplane during Phase 1, if you follow the rules for the additional pilot’s qualifications - but this is not for the purpose of giving flight instruction.

So if you don’t have your PPL buy the time the airplane is finished, find someone you trust to fly Phase 1, then get in and get that certificate!

Paul
 
Since you’re still on the steep part of the learning curve on this (and I think that building before getting your PPL is a perfectly acceptable idea BTW), I’ll point out that when you finish an Experimental, it will be in “Phase 1” testing for most likely 40 hours (there is an option for 25, but that’s rarely issued these days). During this time, you are not “flying off the hours” - you are testing the airplane. A good, decent test program, done purposefully, can take most of those 40 hours. Yes, some people just go and fly the same hour forty times, learning nothing about the airplane, but that is not the intent of Phase 1.

And also yes - you can have an additional pilot in the airplane during Phase 1, if you follow the rules for the additional pilot’s qualifications - but this is not for the purpose of giving flight instruction.

So if you don’t have your PPL buy the time the airplane is finished, find someone you trust to fly Phase 1, then get in and get that certificate!

Paul

Thanks Paul! That makes perfect sense. I know this part of the puzzle is a long ways off, but the planner in me will always want a basic understanding of how something could play out before jumping in. All of this discussion is getting me closer and closer to organizing the shop, buying the tools, and going for it! My wife just rolls her eyes - she would have just pulled the trigger in the first 5 seconds. What can I say, I tend to research things to the extreme. :rolleyes:
 
Build

I know a gentleman who did exactly what you plan.
He just finished his 9A and his PPL.
Look him up on VAF. rockwoodrv9
Send him a PM or e-mail. He probably has good advise on both the build and the certificate.

I got my PPL then almost immediately started my 7a.
My Basic Med is current and I try to fly with friends when they have pity on me but I am not current. I plan to relearn to fly while getting my time in type for the insurance company.
 
I’ll add that one well know builder and restorer in Fla. is not a pilot. He loves the building part and has built many award winning planes.
 
I really wish I had started building 6 years ago. I'd already have a completed RV and could have avoided tons of drama.

However, living through the drama of type certificated aircraft gave me knowledge and confidence to know that experimental is the only path forward for me.
 
Thanks Paul! That makes perfect sense. I know this part of the puzzle is a long ways off, but the planner in me will always want a basic understanding of how something could play out before jumping in. All of this discussion is getting me closer and closer to organizing the shop, buying the tools, and going for it! My wife just rolls her eyes - she would have just pulled the trigger in the first 5 seconds. What can I say, I tend to research things to the extreme. :rolleyes:

You've gotten some good advice in this thread but I'd like to throw in my opinion as a DPE who tests in experimentals.
Generally, it's best to go for ratings (PPL, instruments, etc...) in the simplest and slowest airplane available. A DPE is required to make you use everything that is installed in the airplane, so you will need to be thoroughly familiar with your systems and be able to use them in all the situations you'll encounter on the PPL test (see the ACS). The less there is on the plane, the less you have to master and explain; also, the slower the plane, the more time you have to perform/prepare for the next maneuver.
On the subject of systems, it depends on the DPE what they will require is on the airplane. Since 91.205 only applies to aircraft with a "standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate" I have a (long) list of equipment I require to be installed on an EAB I will test in. For example, I require brakes and controls on the right side of the cockpit, 4-point/shoulder harness, etc... Email me if you want a copy of this list.
You also want to make sure you have an instructor lined up who is willing to instruct in your EAB. Several of my local flight schools don't, for example.
David
[email protected]
 
I didn't see anyone else mention it, so I'll toss this out there. Know what's required to obtain a third class medical and be certain you can obtain it. It's my understanding that you can't get Basic Med without first holding at least a third class medical. I was deep into plane research and due to a known cardiac issue, I figured I better find out one way or the other on the medical. I'm still in that process, but hopefully nearing the end of it one way or another. And yeah, I understand that if I'm denied initially, I do have additional avenues to try if I wish.

Best of luck to you. FWIW, I got far enough to conclude I likely would try to find a 6A to purchase, train in, and fly while building a 10. I asked around and looked at Sundowners and C182s, among others, but just couldn't find anything in the certified world that offered comparable value or would satisfy my wishes until I could get a 10 finished.
 
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