What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Fun times at OSH arrival

(........ If mass arrivals aren't eliminated for all groups experimental and certified, then I won't bother.)

My intentions, exactly!! +1

By the way, I first flew in and camped using a C152 with my son in 1985, and not as part of some mass arrival. Remember the Concorde? And waited in line, along with 100s of other planes on the taxiway, to takeoff while the Concorde did its low passes in the late morning, of course outside of airshow hours.

"This is the worlds largest Aviation event, and yes it was started by EAA, it it is super inclusive."

We all get that, but nothing can be all things to all people. And, there is a practical size limit to everything.
 
Last edited:
Perfectly stated, I have to agree.

I won't be back as long as the mass arrivals and tower controllers collude to screw up the runways and set the stage for another 2018 cluster.

This attitude about all airplanes being equal, but some are more equal than others, is a bunch of BS.

OSH is the busiest airport on the planet for 1 week/year.
How are those controllers selected for such an important task?
Are they the “SEAL Team 6” of controllers?
Are they the “best and brightest?”

After this year, I think we all know the answers to those questions.

If I come across as bitter and angry, you're right - I'm bitter and angry. This year was STUPID and DANGEROUS and INEXCUSABLE. It was negligent on the part of the controllers of ATC's primary goal - that of safety. I spent more than 5 hours airborne in that furball Sunday evening and Monday morning - and we are damned lucky there was not a midair, I'll tell you that much.
 
Last edited:
Let's be practical. When done right, the mass arrivals process a lot of airplanes in a compressed time segment. Watch the BTO group on a good day. You've never seen so many airplanes active on two parallel runways at one time.

Ultimately a mass arrival reduces the traffic volume via Ripon, and they can be handled as a single taxi stream to parking.

If I were The Czar, I wouldn't eliminate mass arrivals. However, I would give the groups a choice. They can have Friday, Saturday before noon, or any morning Tuesday and later. No more mass arrivals during peak times, Saturday noon through Monday evening, no exceptions.

The BTO arrival is a very good show. As a variant on the above, this Czar would open the Monday airshow with their arrival, when Ripon traffic is always shut down by notam. It would be a celebration of how OSH lands more airplane per minute than anywhere on earth. I'm sure the BTO organizers would like the idea, and cooperate with the change. The group would merely need to hit the time hack, and if they can't, well, there is always Tuesday morning.
 
Last edited:
If I were The Czar, I wouldn't eliminate mass arrivals. However, I would give the groups a choice. They can have Friday, Saturday before noon, or any morning Tuesday and later. No more mass arrivals during peak times, Saturday noon through Monday evening, no exceptions.

The group would merely need to hit the time hack, and if they can't, well, there is always Tuesday morning.

I really like this suggestion.
At least you can plan to launch your arrival while avoiding the mass arrival planned runway shutdown.
 
My question is when does the NOTAM come out versus when RV(the road kind) camping reservations open up. I'd been planning on flying in next year but if I don't like what I see in the arrival procedures hopefully there would still be good RV spots available.
 
It seems to me by watching arrivals that safety on the runways trumped the safety at Ripon this year. Planes landed one at a time in leisurely fashion while the furball boiled at Ripon. I think this needs to be adjusted. And now that we have ADSB and can track an individual flight paths, pursucute/crucify those who cheat and cut in line and disregard the Notam!
 
Why not have more than one arrival gate? Perhaps two, one for 9/18 and one for 27/36 or something like that? I know this wouldn't have helped on Saturday when only one runway was in use but in most cases you can use more than one runway. One gate could be RIPON and another LEWKO or something else...

I'm sure this has been considered and rejected for some reason in the past, but I think it should be re-considered.
 
Well I am just a noob with two arrivals under my belt, but apparently I picked the right two: 2016 & 2018, Sunday afternoon arrivals just after the weather had improved. I got lucky on the former, was ahead of the masses. This year, we were smack dab in the middle of the fur ball. I've been in those situations before, I don't like it, but I can deal with it. Luck plays a part for sure, but head(s) up and on a swivel is a bigger contributor to survival. With lots of courtesy around the lake, situational awareness of what was happening at Fisk, and some timely aggressiveness, we got onto a runway prior to reaching divert fuel.

Improvement to the process will likely help, but won't solve it all, there will always be weather that will take the process off script.

It pains me to see so many writing off not only the fly-in adventure itself, but the entirety of AirVenture due to a challenging set of circumstances. The friendships, friendliness, experiences and sights to be seen there are so very much worth the extra effort.
 
Why not have more than one arrival gate? Perhaps two, one for 9/18 and one for 27/36 or something like that? I know this wouldn't have helped on Saturday when only one runway was in use but in most cases you can use more than one runway. One gate could be RIPON and another LEWKO or something else...

I'm sure this has been considered and rejected for some reason in the past, but I think it should be re-considered.

This was brought up at the Flying in/out session.
ATC's answer was short staffing.
 
One last comment, why not supplement ATC with non-ATC personnel? Non-ATC Air Bosses seem to work fine at other fly ins....seems to me that there might be some "we've always done it this way" thinking going on here.
 
If the main problem with it is short staffing, EAA ought to step up and fund the difference. They are making money hand over fist on this event, and can afford it.
I don't think the EAA is making money on Airventure. The only information I could find was the EAA financial statements and if I'm reading them correctly the event (approx) takes in 12m and spends 14m so it is costing the organization 2m to host the event. Are there dedicated statements available just for Airventure?
 
Technically true if you only consider admissions and registrations, but if you include merchandise sales and other things that happen at airventure, then the picture changes...and how many membership dues are renewed at or because of the event? And what about the advertising and sponsorship?

They make a ton of money at airventure and if funding is the problem creating the short staffing situation, EAA ought to step up to protect their cash cow.

To wit:

eaafinancials.jpg
 
It appears my earlier question in this thread has been answered. This furball was simply mismanagement of runway resources. It seems the runway environment was NOT running anywhere near capacity and that was causing a logjam at the arrival.

The obvious and immediate "fix" is to ensure the runway environment is running at maximum capacity at all times. There needs to be a target "Landings Per Hour" rate that is maintained. If a mass arrival of (insert type here) helps that average LPH rate, then bring it on. If, on the other hand, the tower shuts down traffic for an hour because the gaggle is somewhere in the state of Wisconsin, thereby decreasing the average LPH rate, then they need to land during the airshow.

Manage the runway so it's running at capacity, and the rest will sort itself out.
 
Last edited:
Just read this entire thread twice. It?s a painful read for me. I?ve seen it coming. What you all speak of as far as the ATC service has been years in the making. It seems to have reached a crescendo this year.

I encourage you all to reach out to the EAA leadership. They are not driven by OSH revenue, they truly love this event and love aviation. They have more influence than you think, and they can/will effect change. They need to hear from you. They need to know that it?s real...if you believe it is. Please take a moment and reach out to them.

OSH is the busiest airport on the planet for 1 week/year.
How are those controllers selected for such an important task?
Are they the ?SEAL Team 6? of controllers?
Are they the ?best and brightest??

Write the board. Do it.
Probably 20-30 years ago aviation writer Peter Lert called the EAA Convention "EAA's Sacred Money Cow". Nothing has changed, the officers and board have total contempt for "Legacy" members. It is ALL about money. EAA 7074 This was my 49th year at OSH and 7 Rockford's before that. I parked my EAB at Madison, I haven't flown in to OSH for several years.
 
Gents, I'm not a moderator, but I would remind all that discussions of the "money cow" side of EAA is not within VAF rules.

BTW, Sunday afternoon I was sitting on the 36 flightline with at least two EAA board members, watching arrivals. I saw another gathering, umm, feedback in the HBC gazebo. They do care.
 
Last edited:
Too

Too many pilots trying to get in. Some, or a lot of those pilots should have known to turn away and try another day.
The forecast showed that Thursday was the day to arrive. Poor planing by too many pilots.
 
Last edited:
Departure

I got lucky on getting in, no problems Monday about noon, but it is certainly a **** shoot.

My beef was getting out. I did not purchase an all week pass because a family member was on Hospice Care, so I purchased Monday and Tuesday passes only. I tried to get to my Rv10 in HBP early Wednesday morning and I had to be detained at the gate until I was accompanied by security guard on a moped! Really! I would like Vic Syracuse or someone with a voice to check into passes so builder/pilots can get to their plane for departure. This held me up over 30 minutes. He passed Tuesday and had to get to funeral home for arrangements. At least security could have showed up in a John Deere Gator so at least I could have rode, my bags carried and made up for lost time while waiting at the gate for security. Instead, he rode his moped along my side as fast as I could carry all my bags at a fast walking pace, but not once was there an offer to help carry a bag or two. I guess we EAA members and builders at HBP are criminals!

This is my 10th year in a row after building and parts of the program is getting to be a hassle! I'm hopeful for a few needed improvements and some common sense.

Kenny Gene
Wichita Kansas area
Rv7a 294TC AWC 09-07 690 hours sold 11-11
Rv10 484TC AWC 10-10 775 hours flying
 
Kenny,

FWIW, if you get a business card from one of the Welcome Wagon folks, they will make getting to your plane a pleasure. When you are ready to leave, give them a call and they will send a van right to your campsite. They will take you and your bags through the gate and right to your plane. I've done this before. It was thee way to go.

Andy
 
Ask at check in next time. I had to leave Thursday morning and bought Monday thru Wednesday passes. I asked about getting to the plane Thursday morning and was told I could stop by the booth Wednesday for a ?get out of jail free card?. Basically allows you on the grounds for a limited time so you can climb in your plane and go. Worked without a hitch.

Since this was the first time I didn?t camp I?ve never been off the airfield before, the issue dawned on me on Monday (we got there Saturday) and that?s when I asked.

Doug
 
I can?t say enough times that we have been listening, observing, and discussing all of the issues this week. For those of you who think and write that the EAA doesn?t care about ALL members, I assure you that nothing is farther from the truth. We have a real leader in Jack that cares about all aspects of aviation, as well as being a current home builder himself. Some will always believe what you want to believe but many of us are here at OSH for a long time and have about an hour of free time all week due to so many meetings that are centric to our members. There is a lot of work going on for you. Just take a look at a picture of OSH from 10 years ago and one today. It?s amazing.

Please be patient, and try to keep the venom down. 😄

Vic
 
My beef was getting out. I did not purchase an all week pass because a family member was on Hospice Care, so I purchased Monday and Tuesday passes only. I tried to get to my Rv10 in HBP early Wednesday morning and I had to be detained at the gate until I was accompanied by security guard on a moped! Really! I would like Vic Syracuse or someone with a voice to check into passes so builder/pilots can get to their plane for departure. This held me up over 30 minutes. He passed Tuesday and had to get to funeral home for arrangements. At least security could have showed up in a John Deere Gator so at least I could have rode, my bags carried and made up for lost time while waiting at the gate for security. Instead, he rode his moped along my side as fast as I could carry all my bags at a fast walking pace, but not once was there an offer to help carry a bag or two. I guess we EAA members and builders at HBP are criminals!

I had the opposite experience with getting out, I'm hoping yours was just a fluke. We stayed in a rented house a couple blocks behind Basler, when we flew in and I was registering my plane I asked about needing the buy a wristband for our planned early Wed morning departure, they said "No problem, not needed, thanks for coming!" When we walked in the gate Wednesday morning we were still wearing Tuesday's wristbands and carrying our bags - I told the guy at the gate we just needed on the grounds long enough to load up and fly out, he said "No problem, thanks for coming!"

I can’t say enough times that we have been listening, observing, and discussing all of the issues this week. For those of you who think and write that the EAA doesn’t care about ALL members, I assure you that nothing is farther from the truth. We have a real leader in Jack that cares about all aspects of aviation, as well as being a current home builder himself. Some will always believe what you want to believe but many of us are here at OSH for a long time and have about an hour of free time all week due to so many meetings that are centric to our members. There is a lot of work going on for you. Just take a look at a picture of OSH from 10 years ago and one today. It’s amazing.

Please be patient, and try to keep the venom down. ��

Vic

Vic - for those of us that have been to Oshkosh before, especially several times, it's quite obvious that "something snapped" and it was not a gradual process. Weather and attendance deviations can be planned for and have been seen (and handled) before. This was a human-factors failure of some type, and it smells like "Not my problem" mentality, and that's what creates the hostility. I love this event. I hate to see it degraded by the scene that occurred this year on arrival. I want to see it corrected, because I want to come back and bring friends and family to it. But I WILL NOT, unless the root cause is identified and corrected, and made public. I hope the board can see this through to correct course of action.
 
Last edited:
Departure

Yes, I still had my wristband on from Tuesday show, thinking this would help tell the story. They did not care. I have the courtesy van number, good for the week of OSH, 920-230-7906, which I called many times prior to getting to the field and while standing at the north gate waiting for Mr. Moped Security, but no answer. This could be improved upon also.

I did everything I could think of, as I've been there 9 years previously in a row, but absolutely they were not going to let me go in. However, I've also purchased a week pass instead of daily. Truly, I had just told the North gate folks, I was going regardless and they could send the law after me, but I needed to get going, then just as I said this and turned to walk in, Mr. Security showed up on the moped.

Vic, can you please post an contact name, email address or street address so we as individuals can send comments about this years experience for improvements?

Sincerely,

Kenny Gene
Wichita Kansas area
Rv7a 294TC AWC 09-07 690 sold 11-11
Rv10 484TC AWC 10-10 775 hours flying
 
I flew over Monday morning. I knew the weather had been bad over the weekend. I had no idea what the traffic was going to be.

flightaware.jpg


I was in a descent from crossing Lake Michigan and listening to the ATIS. The holding patterns around both lakes were saturated. As I got below 4,500 the altitude filtering came off and my moving map lit up with traffic. I was dumbfounded. The Fisk controller was trying to send aircraft in as fast as he could, but they were already stacked up and arriving faster than the airport could take them.

Then I heard some bickering on the ATC frequency. "This guy isn't flying the hold properly." "I just got cutoff." "Hey, I have been holding here for 68 minutes!" "I've been holding for 75 minutes." It was a high stress environment and nerves were definitely on edge.

Then I heard two calls in succession "Fuel Emergency." ATC brought them to the front of the line and let them in.

My lovely bride was upset. We were going into a small area that had 200+ airplanes - more arriving than leaving -- hazy day -- long wait to just get into the back of the line. If it isn't fun, don't do it. My wife said "I want to go home." It was an intelligent reaction and we left.

I made it in Wednesday morning. No holding. Right to Ripon and in to 36R.

I got some idea of how bad things had been. It seems it was worse than I imagined.

FWIW, to me the logical solution is to have a reservation system. I CAN NOT imagine implementing a system on that scale and having it work smoothly. I think it would create more problems. Logical, not practical.

ATC knew the system was saturated. They didn't have an answer and some of the things they tried just threw more gas on the fire.

My thought is they need a way to cut the number of aircraft down in a fair and even way. I like the tail number idea. I pulled the FAA Registration Database from 2017. I removed the commercial aircraft. I reduced the list down to the last letter or number in the tail number. E.g. If it was listed as N1234B, I took the "B". Everyone knows the last character in their own tail number.

I found what percentage of the fleet the tail numbers were based on their last letter. If ATC decided things were saturated and they needed to shed load, they would go to a 2, 3, 4 group solution. Not in the current group, you must stay clear by X miles. Groups rotate every X minutes until open arrivals can resume.

Put a chart in the NOTAM.

TailGroups.jpg
 
Last edited:
PLEASE listen to Vic (and others)

I (another EAA Board Member) had to depart Airventure early for another Convention, but rest assured that as Vic is saying, this is a BIG DEAL for us, the Board. This NOT something that we are ignoring or taking lightly.

This will be addressed with much thought and analysis.

There is no need to make claims or assumptions about Board members without having direct dialog first. We really are decent people with hearts, minds, intentions, and actions in what most (I hope) feel is the right place. :)

Although not in the "furball" this time, I have flown into Airventure many times, including solo as well as in mass arrivals (RV). Under the RIGHT conditions, mass arrivals can add to efficiency and safety. Weather is always something we must accommodate. The (NEW) drainage of the field can be overloaded when a LOT of rain happens in a short time. A single person cutting into the line at just the WRONG time can mess things up for a lot of people in a hurry. Lower ceilings can merge in a far too diverse sets of speeds. Loss of civility can have its adverse impacts as well.

I say this to say that there is no single silver bullet and we must take the time to understand the true root causes. There are many factors involved in what happened.



We hear you. We have been meeting on it and are meeting again @ 6:45 again this am.
It is no easy fix, but very smart people are involved (NOT including myself in that part of the statement) and I have the highest confidence some real changes and good willl come out of it.

Until then, it does no one any good to diss any other aviators for being here. This is the worlds largest Aviation event, and yes it was started by EAA, it it is super inclusive. Many of us started flying in certified stuff, and MANY of us still fly both.

TOGETHER we will continue to grow, and everyone has a responsibility to be apart of the solution, including reading the notams and understanding the implications of a weather forecast.

I?m sure the NOTAM will be SUPER IMPORTANT reading next year. 😀

Hang in there. This is supposed to be FUN!

Vic
 
I (another EAA Board Member) had to depart Airventure early for another Convention, but rest assured that as Vic is saying, this is a BIG DEAL for us, the Board. This NOT something that we are ignoring or taking lightly.

This will be addressed with much thought and analysis.

There is no need to make claims or assumptions about Board members without having direct dialog first. We really are decent people with hearts, minds, intentions, and actions in what most (I hope) feel is the right place. :)

Although not in the "furball" this time, I have flown into Airventure many times, including solo as well as in mass arrivals (RV). Under the RIGHT conditions, mass arrivals can add to efficiency and safety. Weather is always something we must accommodate. The (NEW) drainage of the field can be overloaded when a LOT of rain happens in a short time. A single person cutting into the line at just the WRONG time can mess things up for a lot of people in a hurry. Lower ceilings can merge in a far too diverse sets of speeds. Loss of civility can have its adverse impacts as well.

I say this to say that there is no single silver bullet and we must take the time to understand the true root causes. There are many factors involved in what happened.

This was my first visit to Oshkosh and I flew my 9A, and held for 2 1/2 hours after a 6 1/2 hour flight. As I didn't know any better I was glad I practiced slow flight and following railway lines and watched numerous you tube videos on arrivals to Ripon and read and memorized the NOTAM. It was an absolutely amazing experience for me. I noticed all the deviations of some but people will be people. My main beef taxiing to HBP was waiting on a mass of Mooney's to the point my oil temperature got up into the RED.
What a great show put on by the EAA!!. I had tickets through Wednesday and had no problem entering the show on Thursday to get in my plane and fly home. I see what everyone is saying about the giant cluster but I have faith this scenario will be sorted out for next year. Live and learn. Despite the problems this to me is still the greatest show on earth.
 
As I said in my earlier post, I've had my gripes with EAA's posture in the (now distant) past. But just listening to the 'data' (personal testimonials) being supplied in this thread, I doubt much of the blame should go to EAA for the traffic fiasco.

I'd be surprised if we ever hear the full story. But... Someone mentioned being told about FAA 'staffing issues'. My money is on the limited staffing issue being driven from somewhere far above even the FAA's management. Anyone remember the ATC 'privatization' push that was tried twice and failed twice in the last two years, and is being pushed yet again? I, for one, have no doubt that vengeance could be a motive.

Charlie
 
Ask at check in next time. I had to leave Thursday morning and bought Monday thru Wednesday passes. I asked about getting to the plane Thursday morning and was told I could stop by the booth Wednesday for a “get out of jail free card”. Basically allows you on the grounds for a limited time so you can climb in your plane and go. Worked without a hitch...

Doug

Thanks for this. I didn't know about the "get out of jail free card". I've had the same problem that Kenny and others complained about - not having a pass for the day I am leaving. It is ridiculous. And that courtesy van that runs around is pretty much a hit or miss proposition especially when you need it. I've flown in to OSH 9 times and the biggest hassle and most disappointment have always centered on: a) getting to the airport terminal to pick up a rental car, and b) getting through the gate to go home. I've sent messages to EAA about this most years in the past, but I've yet to see a response.
 
Last edited:
I got lucky on getting in, no problems Monday about noon, but it is certainly a **** shoot.

My beef was getting out. I did not purchase an all week pass because a family member was on Hospice Care, so I purchased Monday and Tuesday passes only. I tried to get to my Rv10 in HBP early Wednesday morning and I had to be detained at the gate until I was accompanied by security guard on a moped! Really! I would like Vic Syracuse or someone with a voice to check into passes so builder/pilots can get to their plane for departure. This held me up over 30 minutes. He passed Tuesday and had to get to funeral home for arrangements. At least security could have showed up in a John Deere Gator so at least I could have rode, my bags carried and made up for lost time while waiting at the gate for security. Instead, he rode his moped along my side as fast as I could carry all my bags at a fast walking pace, but not once was there an offer to help carry a bag or two. I guess we EAA members and builders at HBP are criminals!

This is my 10th year in a row after building and parts of the program is getting to be a hassle! I'm hopeful for a few needed improvements and some common sense.

Kenny Gene
Wichita Kansas area
Rv7a 294TC AWC 09-07 690 hours sold 11-11
Rv10 484TC AWC 10-10 775 hours flying

While this is not advertised, there has been (at least for the last 7 years) an option to ask for a “get out of jail free” card that will get you back in the gate on departure morning. You got to ask for it the evening before at the HB headquarters. Have done it many times.

Also the welcome wagon is a blessing ran by volunteers!
I am going to try and talk my chapter into funding/donating another one so maybe we can have another one running next year.
 
Last edited:
Got to spend some time with a friend that I have had for 20-years today. This is the 8th of the last 9 AirVentures that he has worked ATC at AirVenture. Typically ATC only get 5 years at OSH and are then rotated out. To get to stay longer then 5 years, you must be a Team Lead like he was the 5th year.

I was informed that the mass arrivals get more aircraft on the ground in less time than the standard NOTAM procedure.

One BIG problem this year was the IFR arrival of Gulfstream IV. Gulfstream IV cleared to land on IFR approach and it went around four (4) times because there was another VFR aircraft between it and the runway.

Was told a story about (I think) C-17 and KC-135 arrival. KC-135 was holding 10 south and C-17 holding at 10,000 both ready to land. KC-135 would not cancel IFR till cleared to land. C-17 would hold as long as necessary till cleared to land. KC-135 cleared in, (VFR traffic stopped), C-17 cleared to 2,500 and circle airport in Delta airspace. KC-135 once landed, C-17 cleared to land. Yes there was some VFR arrival delay but it was minimum as ATC knew how to get both down SAFELY in the shortest amount of time.

Thank you Oshkosh AirVenture ATC for doing a great job during the worst year ever for Oshkosh arrivals. The Wx made for the perfect storm of delays.
 
I haven't said a whole lot here, but I just have to say that "EAA Board" is most certainly listening, because we have Board members that come seek us out for the express purpose to listen every year. It is amazing that mere mortals would give up the OSH experience to go in search of every gripe, confusion, or suggestion just to make our experience better. The big problems to fix have been clearly identified. There are many other "little" problems that are very low hanging fruit that I focused on this year. I would bet my wrist band that those will be improved next year.

James (CB) is the embodiment of this statement. As indicated, he is not here to talk, but is a fantastic listener. Hopefully the rest of the board members are doing equally important work of engagement in other areas of the field every time. I don't know, but can only wish they are.

I can't wait to join you for a couple laps around the lake next year. After that, we'll reposition elsewhere on the ground for additional strategy. Holding with hundreds of other airplanes for hours = crazy. PIC.
 
I arrived on Saturday in my classic '46 Bellanca - RIPON at about noon/at approx 15nm south, 15 or so ADSB out targets holding around Green Lake and another 15 or so inbound from all around/about 5nm later the holding planes released to RIPON/somehow the planets were in alignment and I was .5 in trail behind a high wing with ADSB/never visually saw anyone else but -B outs all around behind/rain shower for approx 1/3 RIPON to FISKE - uncomfortable 3 minutes/landed 36L.

Did not get to see any SOB's cutting into the traffic flow; but did get to see a few SOBs jumping onto the trams on the opposite loading side without waiting in the tram cues. Sometimes the back seat monitor would call them out, and twice I saw people in the cue call them out and both times the jumpers gave them the one finger or there were a few words exchanged - SOB jumpers unmoved and gleeful.

Deduction: The times they are achang'n, it may be systemic - the flying SOBs and the ground SOBs just aren't as nice as they used to be.
 
I was in and around the mess heading to Fisk on Saturday. Fortunately, I hit a good time and went straight in.

However, I have several observations and comments regarding this year's arrival mess and the one from a couple of years ago too.

1) Both arrival SNAFU's were weather related. It is hard to overcome Mother Nature when she's aligned against you.

2) In 2016 (?) the bottleneck seemed to be the runway(s). Lots of close calls and go-arounds. This year, the bottleneck was the arrival process. I'm guessing someone thought that was a better place to cull excess traffic than on short final.

3) Someone has slowed the process. Speed it up again. I've been attending Oshkosh (and SnF) for about 25 years. I've probably flown 40ish arrivals and departures between the two. A personal observation is that the controllers 10 years ago were much more comfortable with closely spaced arrivals and departures. I specifically remember departures being: "Line up two rows of aircraft and pair them off. As soon as one pair of aircraft is 500' down the runway, release the next pair, with the faster aircraft of the two getting a couple of second head start." It is much more regimented and slower today both on the arrival and departure side.

4) I think Dan's comment about pushing the mass arrivals away from peak periods has merit. Sure, we'll set aside a time for your group, but if you want a dedicated slot, it is gonna be at a "shoulder" time, rather than "peak".

5) At some point (and I think I've seen hints in this thread), the EAA and/or FAA are going to require you to pass a test on the NOTAM before you are welcome at the show. How to enforce it? No idea. But it is coming.

6) Acting as PIC puts you in a role with a lot of responsibility. Aerial Decision Making (ADM) is critical. If you make bad decisions which cause you to declare a fuel emergency to land at Osh, you probably need a 509 ride because you weren't using good ADM. Also, if you don't have a copy of the NOTAM in the airplane when the gendarme stop you as you exit the runway after your fuel emergency, it may be worse than a 509 ride.

That is all. ;-)
 
Last edited:
Probably 20-30 years ago aviation writer Peter Lert called the EAA Convention "EAA's Sacred Money Cow". Nothing has changed, the officers and board have total contempt for "Legacy" members. It is ALL about money. EAA 7074 This was my 49th year at OSH and 7 Rockford's before that. I parked my EAB at Madison, I haven't flown in to OSH for several years.

I am surprised that your comments would have anything to do with the ATC / pilot debacle this year and back in 2016. There have been two "blips" I can remember concerning the flavor of your comments. One about 20 years ago and another about 5 years ago. But we, fellow EAA Members, expressed our concerns and the organization listened and got things back on track. Today we are extremely lucky with Jack Pelton at the helm and the board as a whole. We are them and they are us. They are champions for the traditional heart and soul of EAA, home builders. And they care. And they love what they do representing and helping the membership. And it has shown. I am totally impressed by their dedication and selflessness. They will always put the best interest of the individual member and experimental aircraft builder as a foundation of every move they make. I feel lucky to have their sincere ear for anything amiss.

Jim
 
The 36 departure controller Friday morning was awesome.
Efficient and enthusiastic. Even complimented the Dc-3 for blowing him off the stand during runup!
Somebody in line knew him by name, so I?m guessing he is a regular.
Admittedly a more controlled process, but he was also having fun.
 
Unsafe!!

I have been flying into Oshkosh regularly since 1970 and found this years arrival to be completely unsafe. I made five attempts on the arrival on Sunday afternoon around 1pm in a L-19. On every attempt I crossed Ripon on speed and altitude with the requested separation behind the aircraft ahead of me. In every case there were aircraft ahead of me at various altitudes, flying to the right of the tracks (the wind was out of the north) and flying less than 90 knots. Naturally with some aircraft flying less than 90 knots, various groups of aircraft were spaced too close by the time they reach Fisk.
Because the tower was only using runway 9, ATC was requiring a mile in trail. But with some pilots apparently unable to fly precisely at 90 knots, aircraft soon bunched up. There were also pilots cutting in the line inside of Ripon. On the fifth pass they started using runway 36 as well, so I thought i had a shot to make it in. I crossed Ripon on speed and altitude a mile behind a Cessna. There was a pair of Carbon Cub like aircraft in formation ahead of the Cessna, who apparently had not read the NOTAM and were flying less than 90 knots. Predictably, the Cessna soon caught the formation and I lost my separation. Eventually the Cessna decided to decend about four to five hundred feet. So as I approached Ripon, he was directly below me. I guess I missed that move in the NOTAM.
Now about 30 seconds from getting assigned a runway, a Cessna 210 goes screaming by me on the right, gets cleared to 36 and I get turned west to start over. In my five attempts to fly into Oshkosh, I witnessed a lot poor flying and flight discipline, which created a very unsafe situation. If everyone flew the arrival as outlined in the NOTAM, we all would have successfully made it in safely.
I had enough, flew to Wautoma for gas and flew back to KANE. I will not be flying in on the first weekend ever again.


RV-7A ready for inspection
 
"and twice I saw people in the cue call them out and both times the jumpers gave them the one finger or there were a few words exchanged - SOB jumpers unmoved and gleeful."

Wow!!! I find it hard to believe that a fellow pilot would act in such a manner. I hope they were non-flyers visiting.:(
 
Oh it definitely was fellow pilots!!

Oh it definitely was fellow pilots.
The same ones who can?t fly an altitude or an airspeed per the NOTAM.
The same ones who fly the GPS line instead of the RR tracks.
The same ones who cut in line, flying or riding.
The same ones who declare a fuel emergency to receive preferential treatment.
The same ones who use dog chain tie downs and flip you off when you call them on it.
The same ones who stick their paws on your airplane and open and close panels without ANY permission whatsoever.
The same ones who blast you and your aircraft with their prop/jet blast.
I personally observed and was the receiver of this behavior the whole week at OSH. We used to think it was the general public that acted like this. We have met the enemy and it is us. I?m not sure I?ll be coming back or subjecting my aircraft to this kind of behavior from my fellow aviators.
 
Fisk on Sunday

Disclaimer - I have never flown into KOSH. I look forward to taking my RV-9A in 2019 after completing Phase I - good Lord willin' and the creek don't rise.

It was +100F in the shop on Sunday so no work on the airplane. Spent afternoon after church napping in the cool comfort of the couch with a live arrival video stream on the TV. It was a composite of 36L video, an ADSB radar showing the Fisk arrival from Ripon to KOSH and Fisk ATC audio. It was alarming the many times Fisk ATC had to order a left-flank for everyone between Ripon and Fisk. It was alarming the many times Fisk ATC had to catch up with someone that blew by Fisk without a landing clearance and had to aggressively convince them to turn left. Also alarming the many times Fisk ATC described a hap-hazard grouping of many aircraft spread laterally around the RR tracks, differing altitudes, and less than 1/4 mile spacing. It would have be very tough duty to be a Fisk controller that day.

It became clear by some unique descriptions of aircraft and by radar tracks that some, arguably many, turned left at Fisk under ATC orders into a large 360 LH turn and butted right back into the line just short of Fisk. Fisk ATC could have been a little more clear on directions however at times. And paraphrasing here - "Everyone turn left now heading 270. Fly two miles. And reenter." Well some did just that... Had there been additional direction given, it may have mitigated some of the fur ball.

Towards the end of the day, ATC began warning those some distance from Ripon to head to their alternate airport because they were not going to make it in and parked before 2000 prop-stop time Sunday evening. There was a guy that was flying a C182 that spoke up to the Fisk ATC as time was getting closer to shutting off Fisk arrivals. He stated that he had be around the loop 23 times and was on his 24th attempt. He asked very politely if he could "Please land." Fisk ATC began referring to him as "23" from then on. Fisk ATC got him handled and landed. They were very humble and polite when speaking to "23". It was very encouraging to hear these exchanges between "23" and Fisk. I can only assume and choose to assume that "23" had spent the day doing his very best to fly the NOTAM as published and follow Fisk ATC orders to the best of his ability. I suspect "23" was the victim of many incursions into his airspace on his many attempts to fly the approach and he continued to get swept up with the offenders and brushed out of the left exit of the approach. No. I can't make this claim with authority but my gut instinct suggests I'm right.

Been reading the posts for the last week with a lot of interest. The suggestions and such. Please to read the tempered guidance from the likes of Vic S. and am grateful he is there to represent at the EAA Board.

The behavior "23" experienced from his other fellow pilots is a reflection of our "Get outta my way cause its all about me" culture - my opinion. This is a matter you can't eliminate with NOTAM changes. Clearly, the printed words in the NOTAM had little meaning for some that Sunday afternoon. Surprising how many times Fisk ATC was asked "What frequency was for 27" and for "...36."

I recommend that the EAA provide in the Airventure 2019 website a means to download the latest NOTAM during which you registered your aircraft an planned arrival day/time. You wouldn't be able to register without downloading the NOTAM. And if you successfully register, you will receive a constantly updated prediction of traffic density for your scheduled slot with the influence of mass arrivals and warbird arrivals shown. One could update one's arrival plan based on how the predictions were looking. Maybe even color-code slots green, yellow, red, orange. There are ways and means for doing such. There are ways for modeling traffic such as this. It might be useful for spreading the density out arrivals and who doesn't have access to the internet these days? Make it part of the EAA smartphone app even. No expectations to enforce your actual arrival versus the one registered because I just don't see a practical way to enforce such and am fearful that attempting enforcement will only make things worse.

Have a listen to this if you want to hear extraordinary patience of KOSH ATC on the behalf of a very unprepared pilot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no5YX71PT6o

Sermon over...
 
Wow!!! It was difficult to listen to this unprepared pilot.
This is a guy ATC should have gotten the tail# and had him land immediately at an alternate airport & sent him home.

They have his tail number. No repercussions whatsoever. Unbelievable!!!
And this ladies and gentlemen is exhibit #1 as to why the arrival was messed up on Saturday and Sunday. He was not the only unprepared #&%@&#?~. Didn?t read the NOTAM, didn?t have the NOTAM, and had no idea where he was or where he was going. Of course the NOTAM was for the rest of us, not him.
 
The wayward pilot recording on Youtube

They have his tail number. No repercussions whatsoever. Unbelievable!!!
And this ladies and gentlemen is exhibit #1 as to why the arrival was messed up on Saturday and Sunday. He was not the only unprepared #&%@&#?~. Didn?t read the NOTAM, didn?t have the NOTAM, and had no idea where he was or where he was going. Of course the NOTAM was for the rest of us, not him.

Just to be clear, I don't believe this recording occurred during last Sunday. My non-pilot wife pointed this out to me. Her statement was that she knew more about flying the approach than this guy. She and I have watched many of those Youtube videos folks post about making the approach to Oshkosh. We're dreaming and hopefully will participate next year. She has already begun making notes on when not to arrive!
 
So this was my 13th year in a row and here's my take on this.

We arrived Sun around 3pm, circled in the hold for about 2 hrs before calling it quits. ATC was calling for a mile in trail and was turning everyone away, and I mean everyone, about every 5 minutes they would let some lucky guy thru and then it was back to "everyone turn left and fly west from Fisk, tower can't handle the traffic". Only heard them sending airplanes to runway 9, nobody to 36L/R. (friends later confirmed that on sunday 36 runway was a ghost town).

The same scenereo started all over again on Monday, no one in the line from Ripon the Fisk but Fisk controllers kept telling everyone that they should not proceed past Ripon and to circle the lakes which were already packed.

Finally I got tired of playing this game and was going to land, entered and Ripon, went to fisk and was cleared, in the meantime a 100 folks continued to circle the lakes.

IMO it was an ATC disaster, in 13 years of flying to osh I never heard such an incompetent bunch of ATC controllers.

I think the pilots did a great job of not killing each other while putting up with cluster F. created by ATC.
 
On Sunday I was on the side of runway 9 watching & listening to ATC direct traffic. There was one controller that had done this many times before - and u could tell he really loved his job. He worked the landings for quite a while but had to take a brake sometime, and he was relieved by 2 less experienced controllers. One male and one female. Neither appeared to be able to keep the flow going as accertively as the veteran. At the time I thought it strange they would put a ?newbie? in this position. I did see the G4 go around twice due to slower planes in front of him. They were cunards as I recall. The special weather post here on VAF made my decision to arrive on Thursday an EZ one.
 
IMO it was an ATC disaster, in 13 years of flying to osh I never heard such an incompetent bunch of ATC controllers.

Well my wife ATC for something like 25 years with the last 20 at a rather busy class ?B? happens to agree with you. The last time we flew in together 2016 (Sunday) she was pointing out problems and said it was only going to get worse. Looks like as usual she was correct.
 
I've flown a HXB into OSH 31 times in the last 35 years. I arrived Monday, and after about 90 minutes of holding made it in. I'm used to the cluster $%^& that the Fisk arrival has become, but if your head is on a swivel and expect a few idiots to do something dumb it's been generally benign...until this year. I have never seen ATC handle the inbounds in the manner in which they did this year. I have a good friend (and homebuilder) who worked OSH every year for the last 25 years; I'm going to call him and find out what his take on the situation was.

This was the first time in 35 years I was truly concerned about my safety while approaching KOSH; unless something is different next year I won't be going.
 
Fisk Approach Controllers

I visited the Fisk controllers on Tuesday morning. Fisk was hard IFR and Osh went IFR for about an hour which gave me a chance to chat with these guys. Very nice and professional with nothing but the highest praise for the pilots that make this approach work. I went back Wednesday morning and it was a different bunch so I'm guessing it was a different bunch in the chaos on Sunday. Once the Fog lifted and Osh went VFR again these guys got to work. I was EXTREMELY impressed with their professionalism and proficiency! Even when a couple of airplanes didn't comply with instructions, these guys never lost their momentum.

I was sitting on the approach end of 36 during the Sunday mess. I've read this thread and IMHO it seems the only way to prevent something like Sundays mess would be to divide up the arrivals by having a second Ripon someplace. There are some very good suggestions in this thread, for one... "DH's No mass arrivals during expected peak times" which only makes perfect sense! At the very least, perhaps they could have a contingency plan in case this happens which would become a "plan B" in the notam.
There's a bunch of smart guys working the problem. I'm confidant they'll have some good solutions.

A couple of shots of Tuesday morning at Fisk.
2ja5v9.jpg

24d4rqx.jpg

110b1xe.jpg
 
Last edited:
Back
Top