Corrosion under vinyl is a total and complete non-issue? Tell us how you know.
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Vinyl wrapping an airplane
- Thread starter wirejock
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Corrosion under vinyl is a total and complete non-issue? Tell us how you know.
BruceEicher
Well Known Member
Thanks Dan. The chrome has less stretch. So rather then fight it around in one piece I have a seam with the gear leg intersections. I almost always have to point it out to the curious.
I have not tried the clear, but wish I would have instead of the yellowing tape on my flaps. I'm not sure what the other application might be for it, over the polished so I never touch Nuvite again? That might be nice.
I'm glad you asked. Sub-wrap corrosion was one of my primary concerns when I initially researched my wrap decision with Scott at AW. He has never seen corrosion under any vinyl. He has quite often taken other vinyl off planes that had polished aluminum with graphics and the aluminum under the vinyl has always been pristine compared to the surrounding areas.
Has anybody wrapped an RV-12? It seems like it would be pretty difficult with thousands of non-flush LP4-3 rivets to deal with.
Ahhh, because the vendor said so. Got it.
flyboy1963
Well Known Member
one more observation
Dan's right, a healthy dose of skepticism ain't a bad thing, when you are talking about your $100k project here. Saving on paint won't look that smart if the vinyl causes ANY problems that can't be dealt with.
All I know is; I have been sticking vinyl on things since about 1983. The stuff stinks! meaning, when you pull off the backing paper, you get a good dose of solvent smell. Some more than others. even those with 'acrylic adhesive' have some kind of 'liquid glue' in the formulation to allow the stuff to flow and reach it's ultimate bond. Note: when removing the adhesive from quite a lot of vehicles, nothing works better on this 'acrylic' adhesive than good old mineral spirits, or paint thinner. What does that tell you?
now, as far as, " will it kill my aluminum airplane"....the jury is out.
Vinyl graphics have been used on airliners for years..but we really haven't heard from those users what if any effects there were.
The other big thing that permeates many conversation here on VAF is this:
.........whether you have tires, a certain brand of canopy cover, or paint, or plexi, are we talking a plane that is in the sun for 20+ HOURS a year.... or one that is in the elements for 2000 hours a year?!?!?!
There is really no comparison in how a product will perform when it's indoors 99% of it's life, or if it's out there 24/7..... so let's not say things like
" there's never been a problem"....or " this stuff will corrode your plane" unless you are comparing apples to apples in temps and exposure.
my $.02
Dan's right, a healthy dose of skepticism ain't a bad thing, when you are talking about your $100k project here. Saving on paint won't look that smart if the vinyl causes ANY problems that can't be dealt with.
All I know is; I have been sticking vinyl on things since about 1983. The stuff stinks! meaning, when you pull off the backing paper, you get a good dose of solvent smell. Some more than others. even those with 'acrylic adhesive' have some kind of 'liquid glue' in the formulation to allow the stuff to flow and reach it's ultimate bond. Note: when removing the adhesive from quite a lot of vehicles, nothing works better on this 'acrylic' adhesive than good old mineral spirits, or paint thinner. What does that tell you?
now, as far as, " will it kill my aluminum airplane"....the jury is out.
Vinyl graphics have been used on airliners for years..but we really haven't heard from those users what if any effects there were.
The other big thing that permeates many conversation here on VAF is this:
.........whether you have tires, a certain brand of canopy cover, or paint, or plexi, are we talking a plane that is in the sun for 20+ HOURS a year.... or one that is in the elements for 2000 hours a year?!?!?!
There is really no comparison in how a product will perform when it's indoors 99% of it's life, or if it's out there 24/7..... so let's not say things like
" there's never been a problem"....or " this stuff will corrode your plane" unless you are comparing apples to apples in temps and exposure.
my $.02
It's pretty hard to prove a negative. Just takes one contrary data point to disprove it. So I think we'd all be open to seeing any example somebody could provide of corrosion under properly applied vinyl wrap to intact alclad aluminum, under normal use conditions.
It may be there aren't enough data points and time in service to have a definitive answer, but we may be getting there thanks to people willing to experiment.
Kyle Boatright
Well Known Member
I always think about the corrosion some have had under the blue plastic wrap that is applied to aluminum sheet when it is made. There have been plenty of reports in this space about people having corrosion (minor to severe, depending) on blue plastic clad parts that have never spent a night out of doors.
BruceEicher
Well Known Member
Let's tear some off...
I have some yellow stripes I really never liked on the top ends of my wings. I think they look like a banana. They are applied over bare alcad and have about 300 hours flight time, plus another 1500 hours in the great outdoors. The rest of the time in a good dry unheated hangar.
So if a Metallurgist from the group would like to stop by...let's peal them off and take a good look.
There are many airplanes with no paint, polished or unfinished flying a lot longer than mine without the skins disinagrating, so maybe we need more time?
But peeling them back might uncover hidden moisture or...?
I have some yellow stripes I really never liked on the top ends of my wings. I think they look like a banana. They are applied over bare alcad and have about 300 hours flight time, plus another 1500 hours in the great outdoors. The rest of the time in a good dry unheated hangar.
So if a Metallurgist from the group would like to stop by...let's peal them off and take a good look.
There are many airplanes with no paint, polished or unfinished flying a lot longer than mine without the skins disinagrating, so maybe we need more time?
But peeling them back might uncover hidden moisture or...?
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Yes, Dan, a little skepticism is always healthy. However, in this case, my friend Scott said so, and he's been doing this for years. You and Scott are two people I look up to, and in whose words I trust.
rv7charlie
Well Known Member
First, let me say that I don't have a dog in the hunt, at least not yet.
I, for one, have no idea how 2024 sheet stock is prepped prior to applying the blue plastic (scratch protection) wrap. Does the vendor prep it as for painting (doubtful), or just pull it off the stack & run it through the applicator?
I understand wanting to be cautious with new processes, but isn't a bit ironic that we're so fearful that some plane, some where, might get corrosion under vinyl, but we *know* that we can get corrosion under paint? ;-)
Charlie
I, for one, have no idea how 2024 sheet stock is prepped prior to applying the blue plastic (scratch protection) wrap. Does the vendor prep it as for painting (doubtful), or just pull it off the stack & run it through the applicator?
I understand wanting to be cautious with new processes, but isn't a bit ironic that we're so fearful that some plane, some where, might get corrosion under vinyl, but we *know* that we can get corrosion under paint? ;-)
Charlie
DaleB
Well Known Member
I don't know of any, but I have some vinyl wrap here that I intend to try out on mine to see if it's a viable alternative to paint with blind rivets. At some point some, most or all of the paint is coming off (jury is out as to how much of it) and I'm not ruling our vinyl yet for the new covering.
I have wrapped a few small parts. The tail fairing and inspection covers are wrapped, and I'm very happy with those. I also wrapped the forward top fuselage skin. There I was not as thrilled. It looks great, but I managed to scratch it in a couple of places putting the canopy back on. With paint I could have buffed it out and maybe touched up the paint if the scratch were deep enough to need it. With vinyl, either you re-wrap the whole piece or you just live with it - the scratch or a patch will look just as bad.
Countersunk screws are a problem too. You'll either need to cut around the heads or, well, I'm not sure what. I just put them in gently with a little Boelube on the heads to minimize the twisting.
So here's the cool thing... the guy I had do my new N-number and Woodstock graphics has a shop just a few blocks from the airport, AND does a lot of vinyl wrap work on vehicles, AND he flies an ultralight. I'm definitely going to see what advice (or maybe assistance) he has to offer.
Gentlemen, my question to Sid was serious as a heart attack.
We know corrosion can happen under the blue shipping vinyl.
We know corrosion can happen under paint.
So, if there is something about wrap vinyl that makes corrosion a "complete and total non-issue", it could be very useful.
My RV-8 has Grove billet aluminum gear legs. They're made of 7075, an alloy which is not naturally corrosion resistant. They must be primed and painted, or kept polished and waxed. Mine are polished. It looks good, but I think regular polishing is a PITA.
Recall I found Bruce's work with chrome-look vinyl interesting, and asked about clear film over polished aluminum? You see where I'm going here? If either film can go over the polished gear leg (a) without concern for corrosion, or (b) with the expectation that is will absolutely prevent corrosion, why, I would be a very happy camper.
Turns out to be a statement based on anecdote from a vested interest. That's not an accusation. On the other hand, it's not science.
We know corrosion can happen under the blue shipping vinyl.
We know corrosion can happen under paint.
So, if there is something about wrap vinyl that makes corrosion a "complete and total non-issue", it could be very useful.
My RV-8 has Grove billet aluminum gear legs. They're made of 7075, an alloy which is not naturally corrosion resistant. They must be primed and painted, or kept polished and waxed. Mine are polished. It looks good, but I think regular polishing is a PITA.
Recall I found Bruce's work with chrome-look vinyl interesting, and asked about clear film over polished aluminum? You see where I'm going here? If either film can go over the polished gear leg (a) without concern for corrosion, or (b) with the expectation that is will absolutely prevent corrosion, why, I would be a very happy camper.
Turns out to be a statement based on anecdote from a vested interest. That's not an accusation. On the other hand, it's not science.
MikeyDale
Well Known Member
I painted white and covered the wingtips and empennage tips in Hot Rod Red 3M 1080 Vinyl. I also cut a design and put it on the sides. I really like the Idea that I can change up my trim scheme any time I want. But I am having trouble covering the compound curves on the empennage tips with a single piece. At first it looks great but over time the edges wrinkle. There is probably something I'm doing wrong but it is difficult to heat and stretch around the compound curve and expect the straight line near it to not wrinkle after sitting a while. 
Infidel
Well Known Member
A friend had a Zenith 650 that was vinyl wrapped and it looked good. Even around the pulled rivets. I did note one area of concern, which is on the belly's edge at the firewall. The wrap delaminated due to an ongoing oil or fuel leak.
DaleB
Well Known Member
Words have meaning, and I acknowledge that my choice of words have clearly whipped this conversation into a bit of a froth. That's my communications degree failing me once again.
I ask the readers to substitute my previous statement with this new quote:
"Scott has found zero corrosion under the vinyl. So far, it has not been an issue."
As for those who will pull vinyl looking for underlying corrosion, I'm interested in those results. It would be a new and important data point.
Dan, I sent your question about clear vinyl on your polished gear to Scott because, you're right, it would be a great application.
AircraftWraps
Well Known Member
Thanks for the email Sid.
Sid quoted me correctly. We have removed previously applied vinyl for customers and found no issues.
Regarding the clear vinyl application: That would be a "wet-install" process and completely go against AircraftWraps installation process. I would not recommend spraying moisture onto a surface to install vinyl and possibly locking in that moisture.
Dan H, "Because the vendor said"... I'm Scott Farnsworth, we've met before I believe? Either way, I think I'm the furthest thing from a "vendor" in the business practice. I developed the process and application only for myself to improve speed for racing and lighten up my aircraft for aerobatics. I'm first a pilot that respects our community and owner of AW secondly.
I don't need to "sell". I will not make a statement misrepresenting the truth. My reputation as a pilot in the community will always outweigh "making a sell".
(Responses may be delayed. Today is taking storm shutters down day)
Regards,
Scott
Sid quoted me correctly. We have removed previously applied vinyl for customers and found no issues.
Regarding the clear vinyl application: That would be a "wet-install" process and completely go against AircraftWraps installation process. I would not recommend spraying moisture onto a surface to install vinyl and possibly locking in that moisture.
Dan H, "Because the vendor said"... I'm Scott Farnsworth, we've met before I believe? Either way, I think I'm the furthest thing from a "vendor" in the business practice. I developed the process and application only for myself to improve speed for racing and lighten up my aircraft for aerobatics. I'm first a pilot that respects our community and owner of AW secondly.
I don't need to "sell". I will not make a statement misrepresenting the truth. My reputation as a pilot in the community will always outweigh "making a sell".
(Responses may be delayed. Today is taking storm shutters down day)
Regards,
Scott
BruceEicher
Well Known Member
My experience only...
Hi Mike.
I have some of the same seam wrinkles on my wheel pants.
Here are a few tips I have found to help (by trial and error).
Avoid seams and material ends on curves as much as possible due to lifting and wrinkle potential.
Avoid seams and material ends on leading edges due to impact wear.
Lap seam overlap should flow aft and down.
Do use knifeless tape. A razor blade will open the film for possible moisture penetration and will scratch the aluminum no matter how vigilant you are.
Apply primer under any seams that are in the slipstream or have any curvature, giving more strength to edge bond.
Apply primer to concave surfaces to give a stronger bond, helping avoid lifting.
When using the primer, the film sticks like contact cement so don?t expect any repositioning.
After removing the knifeless tape and sealing edges/seams with heat then apply clear seam sealer product.
Hope that helps?Cheers!
I painted white and covered the wingtips and empennage tips in Hot Rod Red 3M 1080 Vinyl. I also cut a design and put it on the sides. I really like the Idea that I can change up my trim scheme any time I want. But I am having trouble covering the compound curves on the empennage tips with a single piece. At first it looks great but over time the edges wrinkle. There is probably something I'm doing wrong but it is difficult to heat and stretch around the compound curve and expect the straight line near it to not wrinkle after sitting a while.
Hi Mike.
I have some of the same seam wrinkles on my wheel pants.
Here are a few tips I have found to help (by trial and error).
Avoid seams and material ends on curves as much as possible due to lifting and wrinkle potential.
Avoid seams and material ends on leading edges due to impact wear.
Lap seam overlap should flow aft and down.
Do use knifeless tape. A razor blade will open the film for possible moisture penetration and will scratch the aluminum no matter how vigilant you are.
Apply primer under any seams that are in the slipstream or have any curvature, giving more strength to edge bond.
Apply primer to concave surfaces to give a stronger bond, helping avoid lifting.
When using the primer, the film sticks like contact cement so don?t expect any repositioning.
After removing the knifeless tape and sealing edges/seams with heat then apply clear seam sealer product.
Hope that helps?Cheers!
BruceEicher
Well Known Member
Dry application
Hi Dan,
The Avery Conform Chrome Film I used for my fiberglass leg covers and fairings is dry application. So is the color film 3M 1080. Sounds like the clear is not.
Cheers!
Hi Dan,
The Avery Conform Chrome Film I used for my fiberglass leg covers and fairings is dry application. So is the color film 3M 1080. Sounds like the clear is not.
Cheers!
Wrap
I build food trucks and the all get wrapped . I have seen a few RV's that were wrapped . Both fall under the 10' rule , they look good from 10' away .
I painted my 8 in a homemade booth with good results . It would be interesting to see a "roller " paint job . A lot of high end yachts are painted with polyurethane and a roller . It would be cheaper than a wrap , zero overspray .
I've seen a fabric Baby Ace painted with a roller , not bad from 5' away .
I build food trucks and the all get wrapped . I have seen a few RV's that were wrapped . Both fall under the 10' rule , they look good from 10' away .
I painted my 8 in a homemade booth with good results . It would be interesting to see a "roller " paint job . A lot of high end yachts are painted with polyurethane and a roller . It would be cheaper than a wrap , zero overspray .
I've seen a fabric Baby Ace painted with a roller , not bad from 5' away .
Longivity of vinyl wrap
3M seems to have a fixed number of years warranty for their products, which seems reasonable. I've also read that removing the vinyl gets harder after a number of years.
Does this mean that a re-wrap will be needed after a period of years? How would you know if it's needed? What are the failure modes of the vinyl, besides fading colors?
This looks like a really interesting option to painting.
3M seems to have a fixed number of years warranty for their products, which seems reasonable. I've also read that removing the vinyl gets harder after a number of years.
Does this mean that a re-wrap will be needed after a period of years? How would you know if it's needed? What are the failure modes of the vinyl, besides fading colors?
This looks like a really interesting option to painting.
Based on the old vinyl graphics I've seen and removed from helicopters over the years, cracking of the vinyl comes after fading colors. I would imagine that's a result of the plasticizers in the vinyl "cooking" out of the material due to UV exposure and other environmental factors (however, I'm no chemist, so one of our resident chemists would have to confirm or deny that).
Combine the brittleness of the cracking vinyl with old adhesive, and it's definitely a chore to remove old vinyl. Once it's close to cracking, or has started cracking, there's little-to-no chance of using a heat gun for a few seconds and peeling off a large section of vinyl - it's heat gun, plastic scraper, adhesive remover, and patience time.
