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  #11  
Old 01-19-2022, 10:12 AM
Freemasm Freemasm is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Orlando
Posts: 663
Default Too bad.

Too bad it is so corrosive. Having an agent that attacks the center of the fire triangle like Halon did that and isn't an OZone depleter would be fantastic.

Anyone else find it ironic that the extinguishant appears to be a product of combustion? New meaning to "fighting fire with fire"? Obviously I'm easily amused.

Last edited by Freemasm : 01-19-2022 at 10:16 AM.
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  #12  
Old 01-19-2022, 10:31 AM
AlpineYoda AlpineYoda is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 399
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It seems like a great idea. Smaller, lighter, longer firing than a regular extinguisher.

Beyond the corrosion issue, which is a biggie, my concern would be the ability to stop and start. You light the thing and it is going. No way to stop it. A trigger actuated extinguisher, while it runs less long, has the ability to pulse the shot. Hit one spot. Stop. Hit another spot. In some situtations, that may be better than a single use but longer duration device.

I'd also love to hear how it works in a "stress" situation. Doing it for the camera under a controlled environment is one thing. Doing it when your life depends on it is another thing.

Something catches on fire - I grab the device with one hand, remove the cap with a second hand, while still steering the plane / boat / car at speed with my third hand? And what if I drop that cap in the cockpit? Can I still fire it without the striker? Typical extinguishers loaded with CO2, dry chem, Halon, etc can be aimed and operated with a single hand while still remaining in control of the vehicle at all times.
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  #13  
Old 01-19-2022, 10:34 AM
AlpineYoda AlpineYoda is offline
 
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One more concern - how do you train someone unfamiliar with the device in an emergency?

You are flying. Emergency starts. Your passenger who is joining you for the first time today has to figure out what it is and how it is used in the emergency. A "regular" extinguisher requires no explanation. Everyone knows what it is and how it works. When time is critical, does familiarity with the device matter?
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  #14  
Old 01-19-2022, 10:36 AM
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kentlik kentlik is offline
 
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Location: Oregon
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On a side note...this is a product I have used for several years and have tested it myself.
I am not an engineer, nor a scientist of any measure, just a regular Joe.

https://banfire.net/

I use it in my job and it works very well for fabrics. I have only used it for fabrics and I swear by it.

See my avatar.
Just an aside...
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  #15  
Old 01-19-2022, 11:18 AM
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reak reak is offline
 
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Location: Loveland Colorado
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This is a great discussion. I’m NOT a chemist or material guy but the website states the product is Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) and from the chart given by 1001001, potassium nitrate has an aluminum compatibility listed as; “class B=Good, Minor Effect, slight corrosion or discoloration”. This seems not too bad, so I bought the product and will put it in the plane. In the end all I really care about is not dying. If the plane is reusable, great, if not, that’s not great but it is okay. Maybe I’ll buy another for the hangar.
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  #16  
Old 01-19-2022, 11:44 AM
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1001001 1001001 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freemasm View Post
Too bad it is so corrosive. Having an agent that attacks the center of the fire triangle like Halon did that and isn't an OZone depleter would be fantastic.

Anyone else find it ironic that the extinguishant appears to be a product of combustion? New meaning to "fighting fire with fire"? Obviously I'm easily amused.
The thing that made my eyes open wide was that the extinguishing agent is "potassium radicals" that seek out the oxygen present in the area to quench the fire. Potassium metal by itself reacts strongly with oxygen, and especially strongly with water--then take that, make it into an extremely fine mist, and make it even more reactive by stripping an electron off of it (chemical definition of "radical"), and then let it loose in air that I might be breathing into my moist mucous membranes--seems like a "yikes!" to me in close quarters.
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  #17  
Old 01-19-2022, 11:59 AM
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1001001 1001001 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reak View Post
This is a great discussion. I’m NOT a chemist or material guy but the website states the product is Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) and from the chart given by 1001001, potassium nitrate has an aluminum compatibility listed as; “class B=Good, Minor Effect, slight corrosion or discoloration”. This seems not too bad, so I bought the product and will put it in the plane. In the end all I really care about is not dying. If the plane is reusable, great, if not, that’s not great but it is okay. Maybe I’ll buy another for the hangar.
PLEASE have a close look at their document on how the extinguisher works.

The inert material in the unactivated unit is indeed potassium nitrate, along with an oxidizer and a plasticizer. Once you activate the extinguisher, the potassium nitrate decomposes into potassium (K) metal radicals, nitrogen, and water vapor.
Quote:
When it reacts
(inside the body of the extinguisher) it breaks down and the aerosol that is formed is
made up primarily of free radicals of Potassium K+, of Nitrogen N (an inert gas), and
water vapor.
When the potassium metal interacts with the gaseous environment around the fire, it converts to potassium hydroxide (KOH) (stripping the oxygen out of the air, preventing its use in sustaining combustion), potassium oxide (KO), and potassium hydride (KH), which then are deposited all around.

Those products of reaction will be spread all over the inside of the airplane in an extremely fine powder. The KOH is immediately corrosive to aluminum. The KH will react with atmospheric moisture to form more KOH. I don't know offhand whether KH will react directly with aluminum, but even if it doesn't, it will provide a source of more corrosive KOH.
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  #18  
Old 01-19-2022, 12:05 PM
Freemasm Freemasm is offline
 
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Default Carefully worded

Quote:
Originally Posted by reak View Post
This is a great discussion. I’m NOT a chemist or material guy but the website states the product is Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) and from the chart given by 1001001, potassium nitrate has an aluminum compatibility listed as; “class B=Good, Minor Effect, slight corrosion or discoloration”. This seems not too bad, so I bought the product and will put it in the plane. In the end all I really care about is not dying. If the plane is reusable, great, if not, that’s not great but it is okay. Maybe I’ll buy another for the hangar.
I think 1001001 is right and his background certainly helps support that conclusion.

The marketing literature is slick, as most tends to be. The verbiage used to describe the product components and initial products/byproducts (after activation, before further reaction with the combustion reactants) are indeed pretty unremarkable. After the reaction as an extinguishant, the products are aren't named specifically; however, "stage 3" in the graphic "K radicals attach themselves to....." Well it's going to oxidize in some form. The graphic shows K in happy proximity to H and O and all is OK.


It's a fairly unique device and would be great in the right application. It's up to the owner/PIC to determine whether aviation is the right application for them; maybe a true "last chance" device should circumstances dictate. Not for me to decide for anyone else. If there are consequences the OEM is cleverly glossing over, it's nice to have contributors skilled in the various arts on this forum to point things out. I looked at the literature again after reading 1001001's comment. I believe I understand it the way he intended. He'll hopefully let me know if I don't.

Great, interesting thread though.

Edit = 1001001 already beat me to the comment. I'll say again; slick marketing.
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  #19  
Old 01-21-2022, 01:18 PM
rdrcrmatt rdrcrmatt is offline
 
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Location: Milwaukee, WI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
So here’s the thing….once you light it off, its going to keep putting out fog until it is finished - even if you put the fire out right away. It’ll just keep fogging up the cockpit, and there’s nothing you can do about it. And the cockpit is a very enclosed space - unlike the back yard where the video was being shot.

In flight, in the cockpit, your fire extinguisher is primarily to put out electrical fires. On the ground, outside the airplane, you are more likely to be working on a fuel fire under the cowling. Fore the cockpit case, nothing I have ever used is efficient and quick as Halon - and you can use it in short bursts, stopping when the fire is out.

On the ground, if you have a fuel fed fire, you need a large volume of extinguishing agent that will shoot in through a cowl opening and then flood the space - Halon, Dry Chem (call your insurance agent - they own the airplane now), CO2 - they are all proven to work.

Yup - this option is a lot cheaper than a Halon extinguisher, but I just filled up my RV-8 after a two hour trip and spent over $100 on Avgas….so how exorbitant is that extinguisher in “airplane money”…really? And Halon extinguishers are easily maintained and filled by a competent shop - completely different than the average Dry Chem you will find everywhere.

I spent a career operating manned spacecraft, and Halon was the only thing we used because, well - you can’t open a window. And I spent 25 years as a volunteer firefighter and firefighting instructor. I’ve discharged countless fire extinguishers of all types. For my airplanes, Halon is the only thing I carry in the cockpit - it works, it won’t kill you, and it won’t blind you.

Paul
These were mostly of my thoughts as well.
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