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Potential new builder, help wanted

RNB

Member
It is a bit overwhelming to consider building a plane. There seems to be a lot to consider. Thank you for your time reading this and giving feedback.

I am retired with several interests but love the idea of building my next plane, certainly cheaper and more fun than buying a 182. I'm currently the owner of a 172. I am a big guy, need to make sure I can fit before investing a lot. So my to do list:
-find a 10 and or 14 to sit in and try on for size. Might go see the rep near Philly and had an offer in VA for a 10 at a BnB.
-I've ordered a toolbox kit, no telling when that will come.
-Decide where I would build. Current thought is the garage as it is closer and likely cheaper to insulate.
-organize what we have better so a plane could take over a good section of a deep two car garage 24x40.
-Should I consider insulating and HVAC to make the next 2-??? years comfortable?
- For dust control, should I paint the concrete floor?
-Is normal household power enough for the tools? I thought I read someone putting in a 40 amp power outlet, if so, what is this for.
-Get active in EAA
- After trying on a plane for size, start with first kit order while the rest is worked on. Practice a lot after ordering tools.
-Watch the other half of the youtube videos about such things...
- what height workbench did you wish you had? Hip level? On wheels?

What else?

I am in eastern NC if you have a 10 or 14 within a days drive or flight.

Thank you.
 
Good questions.
Definitely build in your garage. The size you listed is much bigger than many of us have successfully used.
The only reason to run a larger power circuit is to power an air compressor. Nothing else takes a lot of power. Maybe choose a model that will operate on a 20 amp 120 volt circuit.
No need to seal or paint the floor. You will be sweeping it frequently.
Build an EAA Chapter 1000 workbench on wheels. Google it.
Finally, plan on more than two years. The delays in kit shipments will probably determine your schedule. It is for me. It looks like my -14 wing kit will take about 10 months for delivery. Order early and often!
Good luck with whatever you decide to build.
 
I am retired with several interests but love the idea of building my next plane, certainly cheaper and more fun than buying a 182. I'm currently the owner of a 172. I am a big guy, need to make sure I can fit before investing a lot.

Unless you're really frugal and do some scrounging, building a 10 or 14 today probably isn't any cheaper than buying a decent, older 182, and depending on your choices might be significantly more expensive. As for size, if you fit in a 172 you should have plenty of room in either the 10 or the 14. Good luck with your decision either way.
 
This work bench might be a little simpler. Make the bottom high enough so that a robot vacuum like a Roomba can explore underneath it. Makes shop clean up a bit easier to have one of those things on a schedule that doesn't annoy you.

The larger compressors use 220V or 240V.

Climate control and insulation definitely help. Also large windows and plenty of shop lighting.

Find a builder who will mentor you. It'll save you a lot of headaches and initially, the learning experience will save you some time and money because you won't need to redo some things.

Dave
 
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New builder

Answers below in RED
...
...
-find a 10 and or 14 to sit in and try on for size.
Try the 7 as well.
-I've ordered a toolbox kit, no telling when that will come.
Find a mentor and build both practice kits. You will know whether building is a goal and which tools you want
-Decide where I would build. Current thought is the garage as it is closer and likely cheaper to insulate.
Close is always better.
-organize what we have better so a plane could take over a good section of a deep two car garage 24x40.
That's twice what many have used successfully.
-Should I consider insulating and HVAC to make the next 2-??? years comfortable?
Yes for the cold. HVAC is also nice if it's hot there.
- For dust control, should I paint the concrete floor?
No. Makes it hard to find lost parts. Sweep or vacuum.
-Is normal household power enough for the tools? I thought I read someone putting in a 40 amp power outlet, if so, what is this for.
Nice to have 220 for a compressor but pretty much everything else runs on 110. Cordless tools are handy.
-Get active in EAA
Yes.
- After trying on a plane for size, start with first kit order while the rest is worked on. Practice a lot after ordering tools.
Practice wth a mentor first. Don't try to learn solo. You might have to relearn. Then order the empennage and see how that goes.
-Watch the other half of the youtube videos about such things...
EAA has enough videos to keep you busy for a very long time.
- what height workbench did you wish you had? Hip level? On wheels?
Standard EAA benches can be built to your preferences. No wheels for me but I don't roll that way!

What else?
Nada

I am in eastern NC if you have a 10 or 14 within a days drive or flight.

Thank you.
 
q&a

I built a -10, and have flown a -14.

I am 6'1" and 270...no problems with comfort.

The -10 is an awesome airplane!

A couple of things:

It will take longer than you think.

It will cost more than you think.

It will be worth it.
 
Lots of great questions to ask.

Here are my thoughts.

If you can find someone close to you who is building any RV go see them and get a feel and look for what your in for. I was fortunate to have a 10 builder close by and we now bounce ideas off each other.
Building is a huge commitment. I’m semi retired and spend as much time as I can get building. I want to fly not build lol.
Be prepared to spend hours on the computer searching this forum, others build blogs and suppliers of stuff as you will need to learn so much in a short period of time it’s like drinking from a fire hose. You will be the buyer, finance officer, CEO, logistics coordinator, electrical designer, test pilot, mechanic.....you get the picture.
You will need a heated and insulated garage if you want to work through winter.
Building gives you an excuse to buy lots of cool tools.
You will experience frustration, joy, pride and periods when you want to burn the whole thing to the ground and wished you taken up underwater basket weaving!

I’m only about 14 months into my build and am so glad I took the plunge.

Best of luck not matter what you decide to do!

Merry Christmas

Keith
 
Suggest you spend the time and money to build the empennage at a build assist center.

1. You will make incredible progress in two weeks.
2. You will move up the learning curve rapidly.
3. You will learn what quality work looks like.
4. You will figure out if building is for you before you spend a lot of money on kits you may end up selling.
 
I would also get the control surface practice kit. I found that I learned a lot more doing that one than the toolbox. Together they seem to cover almost everything you need to know to get going so I’d do the toolbox first and then the control surface.

Zack, the Vans rep in the Philly area is a great guy and I was blown away by my demo flight in a 14. Was 100% sure of my decision to start a build after that.
 
If you can, find a local builder who is about 1-2 years ahead of you in their build, who you can lean on for advice, check out his build to confirm you’re on the right track, borrow tools and parts from while yours are in the mail, and just in general act as a second set of eyes for you. Eventually you’ll be that guy for someone else.
 
Building is awesome and rewarding, but I would challenge you to ask yourself this question.

"Do I really want to build, and can I make building an airplane a life priority for a couple years (or more)?"

If you answer no, or you are not sure keep researching or consider buying a flying one.

If you can find a local building, offer to come help them. You will learn, maybe find a new friend in the process. Some of my most quality friends are from building airplanes.

If you want to visit Louisville Ky area, we have a lot of building and flying activiy we can show you. A 14 just got started, but no flying 10 or 14 but just about every other model.
 
Potential Builder in NC

We have several RVs flying here in the Greensboro area. 4, 6, 7, 8, 8A, 10, 14. Take your choice.

I am more than happy to arrange to show you some planes and give you a chance to sit in a 10 and 14.

Just let me know. Completed my -8A in 2002 and still love flying it all over the country.

[email protected]
 
Greensboro offer, THANK YOU.

Control surface kit idea, good one, was not aware. Ordered. On back order.

Where can I get appropriate materials to create my own practice materials? Is the metal stuff they sell at Lowes gonna give me an accurate idea of aircraft aluminum? Does anyone have scrap piles they would send me? I can apple pay or use Zelle.

Workbench looks like a great project. Again, I'd love some feedback on height. I read somewhere to build a lower bench for seated projects and another standard bench. What if you were 6'6" tall?

Thanks for the no concrete floor paint feedback.

I am hoping that EAA exposure gives me access to RV builders. FAA site suggests only one owner in my county, he having two. No adjacent county owners. A handful an hour and a half away, will write if they don't respond to my email attempts.

I think I can handle the time commitment.
 
Mentor

Answers (opinions) below in red.

...
Where can I get appropriate materials to create my own practice materials? Is the metal stuff they sell at Lowes gonna give me an accurate idea of aircraft aluminum? Does anyone have scrap piles they would send me? I can apple pay or use Zelle.
Yes. Fine for practice. I doubt Aircraft Spruce would be cheaper, plus shipping will add to cost.
Buy 12x12x.032 sheet and 3/4x3/4' x.125 angle. That will approximate material on the airplane. I stress the importance of pounding those first rivets with a Mentor. Start with good muscle memory.

Workbench looks like a great project. Again, I'd love some feedback on height. I read somewhere to build a lower bench for seated projects and another standard bench. What if you were 6'6" tall?
Mine are standard dimensions but I'm short.5'6". Works for me standing or sitting. I would find a card table and experiment. 6'6" would require a lot if hunched work at the standard height. Build both same height. They will be moved around to change work surface dimension. 2x10 end to end, 4x5 side by side, "L shape, etc.
...
 
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I have just one comment, regarding the concrete floor.
It depends on how it was made and where you are at. If it was built with a vapor barrier or you're in a dry climate then great. But if it gets damp when the weather changes for example, you'll want to consider sealing it and / or painting. The last thing you want is a dank damp workspace (voice of experience.)
 
Workbench height - kitchen counters offer a good sanity check on this. Do you prefer higher or lower? If you don't currently share the food prep or clean up chores, request the opportunity to help out, explaining why. In a short time you'll have decided what height you like.

And a year into the project, you'll have a much better idea.... so if you build in something to adjust the height, that'll be good then. I have workbenches with are not at a good height. I ignore that and work on. Not a big deal.

Dave
 
If you can, find a local builder who is about 1-2 years ahead of you in their build, who you can lean on for advice, check out his build to confirm you’re on the right track, borrow tools and parts from while yours are in the mail, and just in general act as a second set of eyes for you. Eventually you’ll be that guy for someone else.

I second this advice. I learned a whole lot more watching RVs being built than just reading build logs or searching online. I also found people are really open to share their build experience with new builders, where they made the mistakes, where they thought the kit could be improved. It doesn't really matter if they build a different kit from you. Most of the advice will translate into your own kit.
 
I definitely advocate sitting in one of your choices to make sure it fits. That would be job one, IMO. Regarding building, I finished my quick-build (I call it not-slow-build) kit from first delivery to cert in 14 months - and that's including the kitchen remodel I did all alone for my wife halfway through. I didn't practice or seek out assistance; I just followed Vans's instructions. I built 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and spend uncounted hours online looking up techniques, parts, etc... Stayed in the garage until it was time to put both wings on at the same time. EAA tech counselors checked me 3 times. In spite of learning as I went, I smiled ONE rivet during the entire build, and lost sleep over that. I am a very accomplished do it yourselfer, but not particularly talented in any area.
I did almost quit when it came time to fit the canopy and windscreen. Those were a major a#$pain I never want to experience again.
I say go. You'll make a ton of discoveries as you go along but will never regret taking on the project. I don't know if VAF existed when I built, but its resources are invaluable even now.
 
Garage is fine, some are built in a one-car. Some climate control is nice, but don't go overboard. It only needs to be warmed/cooled when you're working, and it's a shop, not a lounge. In winter 60 is warm enough, in summer 90 is OK with a few fans. (But desert == dry heat, if you're in swamp country you have a bigger problem.)

Floor: seal or don't, but I advise a smooth uniform finishing color. It's popular to add colorful chips to epoxy floors - but just try spotting a dropped bolt or washer in all that visual noise. You'll want to sweep often anyway, you're going to make a lot of chips and dust of your own along the way.

240V power: only needed for a big (3+ HP) air compressor. Which you may or may not want: a tiny compressor is plenty for riveting tools, but inadequate for a drill or die grinder or cutoff tool. OTOH not every builder will use those, and even then, in this age of wonders we can now get battery electric versions that are wholly adequate for hobby use.
 
Use Shipping Crates

Back to the workbench question: In addition to my EAA workbench on wheels, I found the large wooden shipping crates the the kits come in work great flipped upside down sitting on sturdy sawhorses. Cover with cardboard to avoid scratches. This gives you an 8' long surface. Shoot a few drywall screws through the sides into the sawhorses to keep things from moving around. Eventually you are going to have to so something to dispose of those big crates you paid for: might as well use them for a while.
 
Where can I get appropriate materials to create my own practice materials?

I bought an empennage trim bundle plus assorted rivets from the Van's store. The trim bundle contains a number of rectangular sheets of aluminum in various thicknesses apparently cut from manufacturing trimmings.

-Carl
 
The empennage kits are months out to be delivered and the practice kits have no estimate of ship dates.

I heard back from Zack yesterday, he is very busy, first available time is mid March.
 
+1 on most of what's said by others

3 thoughts,

Flooring: I built the empennage, wings and fuselage in a 1 car garage in an appartment building basement. The floor was unpainted but smooth concrete.
I covered the floor with the cheapest industrial carpet I could find, light blue and thin.
Warmer and more comfortable for the feet, dampens sounds a bit and small stuff that fall are easier to find as they don't bounce and roll a mile away.
You will need to vaccum regularly.

Possible down side, it might attract some humidity depending on your location.

Workbenches: I'm taller than average but by not much. 6 feet tall and I find that at 36", all standard countertops/workbenches are too low when working for extended periods. Constantly leaning/bending over, the lower back hurts after a while. I built my work bench to 40" and that was good for my taste. You might want to try differents heights and find one that suits you.

Compressors: lots have been said here in other threads, you can do a search.
Noise and volume are my most important criteria.
Starting the build in Europe, I had a 100 liter/25 gallon horizontal tank with a 2 cylinder/ belt driven compressor. 240v of course. Relitavely quiet and rarely running even when priming parts. Very happy with that one.

Moved to Canada to finish the project, didn't bring along the compressor because of 120v. Bad decision... I miss that compressor so badly!!!
I could have make it run here on 240v...

I bought here a 15 gallon vertical tank that has a "oilless" compressor...
The thing is so noisy and clanky I wear ear muffs when it's running, and I'm now in a 45' hangar. In addition, it takes forever to fill and runs often even when not in heavy use...
Did I mention I hate it with passion everytime I turn it on??? :mad:
I'm done building, but considering selling it to change for a similar one I had before just for peace of mind... Will prevent me from having high blood pressure from stress just thinking of topping up the tire pressures...

One last thing, make yourself a comfortable and friendly work environment. Temperature, lighting, space, music, fridge, etc...
You will spend a lot of hours in there.
2800 hours for my build.
 
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Forgive this going in a few places all at once...

Update, some folks have been gracious to offer us to see their planes, wx and schedules have not meshed thus far. I expect that it will work out with a 10 in March with Zach. I'd still hope to sit in a 14 and/or see someone's build space. We are making travel plans to the Dallas area, will have some extra time most days. If you are near Dallas (Addison) and willing to show us your Vans 10/14 or an ongoing build, please reach out. We will have a rental car and are willing to drive a bit.

Thank you!
 
A couple 10/14 builds in central NC

I have a friend building a -10 in Greensboro in his detached garage shop, working on the tailcone now, setting up for wings. I have another friend who just finished his -14 in Greensboro, built in his home garage, the plane now at KGSO and flying. I built a -4 in my basement/garage, now flying for 11 years at 8A7(Twin Lakes) south of Winston-Salem. We have 2 -4's,a -9,-8A,-10,-14A and a -12 at 8A7. Feel free to PM me, and I can share building at home, and finishing at the airport details with you, as well as get you the other builders contacts.
 
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