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Ask a controller... (in memory of Tony Kelly - tkatc)

We usually have them report a 5 or 3 mile initial for our F-16s. If I didn't need a report, I might just give a landing/option clearance and instructions on direction of break.

I assume you are asking because of the recent OVERHEAD thread. My take is, at towered airports, if the controller approves it, you are fine because the tower is providing some sort of separation from other aircraft. At non-towered fields, since this maneuver is not STANDARD, then aircraft desiring the overhead may do so, so long as other traffic is not affected.

Sort of like if you are running through the park, you yield to pedestrians on a leisurely stroll, you don't just run them over.
 
tkatc said:
At non-towered fields, since this maneuver is not STANDARD, then aircraft desiring the overhead may do so, so long as other traffic is not affected.
.
Click to expand...

This statement applies to any method of entry. No "pattern" has a regulatory protection of right-of-way over another at an UNCONTROLLED airport.

If call a 3 mile initial which is immediately followed by another pilot calling a 3 mile 45, I am not obligated to give way and neither is he. We will need to deconflict based upon speed and good courteous communication.

None of us OWN the pattern. If Im there first, the pattern is an overhead and the the other guy is the interloper and is bound by rules of common courtesy to adjust for me. If he is first, the pattern is a 45 and I am the interloper requiring me to adjust. Simple.

*** actually a little more thought on this right-of-way issue - for an airport with a left hand pattern the 45 traffic must give way to the overhead traffic since the overhead plane is to the others right and has right of way. On right hand pattern the overhead plane must give way.

PART 91.113
d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way.
 
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I've never seen a windsock (traffic pattern indicator/segmented circle) depict an overhead pattern left or right....

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/pilot_handbook/media/phak%20-%20chapter%2013.pdf

Anyway, I won't argue semantics over non controlled fields. But aviation is built on common sense. No private pilot exam that I ever heard of included an overhead maneuver. It is not practiced or taught to private students, instrument students, commercial students, etc. from that, common sense tells me it is NOT a standard maneuver.

Should it be prohibited? NO!! Should it infringe on the rights of other aviators? NO!
 
Wx Question

Approaching abc on instruments and approach control asks if we have the abc weather. There's no weather reporting at abc and the approach plate says to use the xyz altimeter setting. So if we have the xyz weather, is the answer yes? Thanks.
 
Hmmm, Been in a somewhat similar situation before. Best to say you have "xyz". Cleared up some confusion between ATC and myself at the time.

NOT AN EXPERT OPINION HERE. So take it for what it is worth (nothing).
 
tkatc said:
Anyway, I won't argue semantics over non controlled fields. But aviation is built on common sense. No private pilot exam that I ever heard of included an overhead maneuver. It is not practiced or taught to private students, instrument students, commercial students, etc. from that, common sense tells me it is NOT a standard maneuver.
Click to expand...

And living right under an uncontrolled airport pattern, I highly agree. Even if it ticks off a few RVers....

Hardly anyone is going to have a clue of what the **** they're doing.

L.Adamson
 
bruceg said:
Approaching abc on instruments and approach control asks if we have the abc weather. There's no weather reporting at abc and the approach plate says to use the xyz altimeter setting. So if we have the xyz weather, is the answer yes? Thanks.
Click to expand...

Bruce,
Sounds as though you got one of our inexperienced controllers there. It sounds as though they think there IS weather reporting there and want to fulfill the requirement of making sure the pilot has that report.

But as you stated, there probably ISN'T weather at that field. Especially if the plate is telling you to use a nearby altimeter. As the pilot, I would reply that there is no weather there but you do have the xyz altimeter. This will then either educate you (when they confirm there is actually reporting services) or you educate them so they won't make that mistake in the future.

I have said this before and still believe it... An airport with 3 letters as the identifier DOES have CERTIFIED weather while other airports that contain a combo of letters and numbers does NOT have certified weather. Someone argued this was not the case with me before but I think it boiled down to CERTIFIED vs non-certified weather stations. I haven't researched it all that much so I cannot speak on the differences between the classifications.
 
Another Flight Following Question

Back in October I went on my first "long" trip in the RV from San Jose, CA to California City. I decided to file a flight plan and get flight following on the trip since I haven't done either one of those for years since I've been building.

Both went without a hitch but I had a question about ending flight following at the end of the trip. When I got close to the end of each leg, I asked to terminate. However, on the return trip, just before I was going to call and cancel, ATC asked me if I had the current ATIS at RHV. I told him that I hadn't but I wanted to terminate.

I guess I'm wondering what would have happened if I didn't terminate. Would he have given me the current ATIS and then stayed with me for a while longer? I'm guessing he would have. I was about 40 NM out when I terminated.

Next time I'll let it play out.
 
Depends how busy they are. If busy he would have said, "Report when you have information alpha at Reid Hillview", e.g., please use your second com and get it. If not busy he'd read it to you.
In the bay area they'll generally stick with you until about 6 miles out, then tell you to call the tower. ATC will usually do a handoff with the tower, so they are expecting you.
Controlled or not, if you report "airport in sight" atc will take that to mean you wish to terminate radar service, and they'll reply, "radar service terminated, switch to advisory (or tower)"
 
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I looked up RHV. It is a class Charlie airport. So I think you may be a little confused about how that operation works.

To enter that airpsace you must have an operating transponder (so they can identify you and sequence you to the airport) and establish 2-way radio comm. You initiate this procedure by calling approach on your way in, obviously you already had that covered since you were receiving flight following. The controller identifies you and then gives you instructions on how to enter if he needs to sequence you. Just prior to entering the surface area (typically 5 miles around the airport owned by the tower) he will hand you over to the tower.

Before handing you over, he DOES have a requirement to ensure you have the "numbers" or ATIS. So that is why we prefer pilots to report the ATIS so we don't have to ask them if they have it.

There really is no such thing as terminating before entering that airspace. It is a controlled field which requires you to communicate and/or obtain clearance to enter. (Depending upon airspace designation)

There is a slight chance you could have snuck under the "outer ring" and called tower directly but that is frowned upon and some towers may insist you contact approach FIRST so they can sequence you with other traffic. Here are the requirements for controllers and Class Charlie service:
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc/atc0708.html

Hope this helps!!
 
Actually, RHV is not a Class C airport but it lies very near to SJC which is but RHV is completely outside of that airspace. There is a finger of the SJC Class C that sticks out to the south but we generally stay to the east of that.

Also, there was no Class C between where I was when I terminated and RHV.

I'm just going to have to do the flight following again and check it out.

Thanks
 
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tkatc said:
Bruce,
I have said this before and still believe it... An airport with 3 letters as the identifier DOES have CERTIFIED weather while other airports that contain a combo of letters and numbers does NOT have certified weather. Someone argued this was not the case with me before but I think it boiled down to CERTIFIED vs non-certified weather stations. I haven't researched it all that much so I cannot speak on the differences between the classifications.
Click to expand...

I think if it has weather reporting it will have a three-letter airport identifier but all three letter identifiers may not have weather reporting. See FAA Order 7350.8U titled Location Identifiers: the pertinent paragraph:

1-2-7. ASSIGNMENT SYSTEM

a. Three-letter identifiers are assigned as radio call signs to aeronautical navigation aids; to airports with a manned air traffic control facility or navigational aid within airport boundary; to airports that receive scheduled route air carrier or military airlift service, and to airports designated by the U.S. Customs Service as Airports of Entry. Some of these identifiers are assigned to certain staffed aviation weather reporting stations or for airports commissioning Automated Weather Observation Systems, level III (AWOS-III) or higher that have paved runways 5,000 ft or longer.

An example is Eureka (Murray Field), CA, that does not have weather reporting but does have an RCO (Remote Communications Outlet) so I think that earns it the "EKA" three letter identifier. There is rhyme and reason behind this stuff.
 
ArVeeNiner said:
Actually, RHV is not a Class C airport but it lies very near to SJC which is but RHV is completely outside of that airspace. There is a finger of the SJC Class C that sticks out to the south but we generally stay to the east of that.

Also, there was no Class C between where I was when I terminated and RHV.

I'm just going to have to do the flight following again and check it out.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Ahh, you got me. At first glance I looked at SJC but now I see RHV is just a class delta...which acts very similar to a Charlie as far as approach control is concerned....except that you could go to the tower directly and never have to talk to approach. But since you were...the controller just ensured you had the ATIS and handed you over to the tower. Either the approach controller or the tower controller would have to ensure you had the ATIS so it sounds like the approach controller just took care of it.
 
tkatc said:
Aerovin,
Good find! I have never read any part of that order as it doesn't really pertain to separation or sequencing of aircraft. You are a smart man....maybe that is why I copy so much from your build site! It is EXTREMELY helpful to me. Look here and see if you can find the similarities! :D
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=726912#post726912
Click to expand...

Not so smart but I'm used to getting into the FAA Orders for source guidance as it is part of my day job (that being Flight Check). Your RV-8 is making good progress. Looks good.
 
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So a number of years ago Tracy, CA went from alphanumeric to KTCY. Was that because they put an NDB on the field? Now that the NDB is decommissioned, will Tracy go back to an alphanumeric ID?
 
BobTurner said:
So a number of years ago Tracy, CA went from alphanumeric to KTCY. Was that because they put an NDB on the field? Now that the NDB is decommissioned, will Tracy go back to an alphanumeric ID?
Click to expand...

Tracy has AWOS-3 so I think it will retain its three letter, though runways are less than 5000'. Seems less likely it would go back to a letter-number combo. By the way, as of right now the TCY NDB remains in service even though the NDB approach was cancelled. Should still be transmitting on 203 khz. It is owned by the city so it is their call if/when it is shut off.
 
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But KTCY's runways are less than the prescribed 5000', or did I mis-read the handbook quote?
Runways are getting 3' shorter, too, but that's another story!
 
I would be surprised if KTCY had an ident change at this point, especially as long as the TCY NDB is in service. The incentive is to go to a three letter so a step backward won't be pressed by anyone. The idents are generally considered permanent unless there is a good reason to change them (i.e. upgrade).
 
FAA's definition of formation qualified

Question for the ATC types,

Checked in yesterday with a Class B approach control as a two-ship formation and subsequently was asked all type of questions. (a) Are you formation qualified? (b) Is your wingman on frequency? (c) What is your wingman's tail number? (d) Have your wingman check in with me. (e) Etc.

Any idea what this was all about? As far as I know, there's only one requirement to be formation qualified, and that's in waivered airspace (i.e. airshows), not the case here.

What's even more strange is an hour or so later we checked in with the same approach control (different quadrant) as a four-ship and was asked nothing.

If anyone has any info to share, I'd sure appreciate it.

Thanks!

-Jim
 
Sounds like the controller was an enthusiast of some sort. I know of no requirement for him to know or ask those details. :confused:
 
Was talking to a very experienced Gulfstream/RV7 buddy of mine the other night about how often procedure turns/hold instructions are issued. He told me that east of the Mississippi its pretty rare any more where radar coverage is good. I can see west of the Mississippi that would not be the case since there are large areas of cumulogranite and uncontrolled airspace. Am wondering if the ATC folks here concur.
 
Not sure I understand your question and not many controllers have both east and west experience but I'll add my two cents. I'm on the east side and I almost never issue a procedure turn. The only time I do is when the pilot requests it.

As far as holding instructions....I issue them quite a bit as the Northeast airports often get over saturated because of fog/weather/winds. I held at least 4 aircraft last night for about 15 min each.

If you're talking about a non radar environment, then yes, procedure turns would be used because there would be no radar target to vector to final. In non-radar we have a whole slew of different rules and procedures to keep the IFR aircraft separated. MOST controllers hate non-radar because they rarely have to use those procedures and consequently, they aren't very good at it.

Trans-oceanic flights are not separated by radar either, those controllers are very skilled in non-radar environments.
 
Here's a question I've been wanting to ask of a controller.

I'm currently VFR but working on my IFR. My plane is based in a rural part of west Texas (under V68, 40DME on 180 radial of BGS vortac). My strip is not marked on any chart but some of the local controllers have gotten used to our call sign out here and are usually waiting for us to call up with flight following when they see me climbing out (I always use flight following for traffic). A couple weeks ago I made initial contact (callsign only) and Center came back immediately with "2451N, where ya headed today?" - and they no longer give me 20 questions about my destination on the return trip.

So far, so good - under VFR flight following, no fouls so far. But once I get my IFR ticket and I intend to do an IFR trip, what would be the ATC-preferred method for me to file/activate an IFR trip? Since I'm on an unidentified strip, do I have to depart VFR and then call up to get a "pop-up" clearance? Or can I file a clearance from the DME/Radial position and telephone them for clearance? Or something else entirely? Radio reception in my area is guestionable below 500' AGL but good at 1000' AGL.
 
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Airfields are usually TERPS out for IFR operations. Specifically they are concerned with obstruction clearance. You are flying out of an unknown field?

Anyway, the best way to get a clearance is ON THE GROUND. That way you have everything you need and the controller confirms all this while things are stationary. He doesn't have to separate you from anything at that point.

Now, you could get the IFR release off the ground and the controller will just "block" that airspace until you are identified and on your way. They will probably clear you to ABC "VIA" DEF...that word VIA puts the responsibility on the pilot to maintain his/her own obstruction clearance.

The other way, and this may be preferred by many controllers, after you get your clearance on the ground, you depart VFR and then request to pick up your IFR when airborne. That way, the controller doesn't have to block any airspace, you will be VFR and he will identify you, from there he will assess your proximity to other airspace/traffic and grant your request for IFR.

The worst way, IMO, is to file, depart VFR and expect the controller to drop everything to issue you a clearance AND separate you at the same time. It could eat up some valuable frequency time as well as creating unnecessary workload for both you and the controller. I sometimes ask this pilot why he didn't pick up his clearance on the ground....I don't really care what the answer is but it is my friendly reminder that he should have. If I'm particularly annoyed....I might read the clearance especially fast so he really has to concentrate. I think they get the point but perhaps not.

I realize there are times when it is impossible to get the clearance on the ground, and I hope this doesn't sound like I am not willing to provide exceptional service, but everyone has thier own pet peeves. :eek:
 
I find it much the same here

My private strip is by chance located exactly (within 1NM) below a Fix for an approach to an airport north of me.

I usually call them on the telephone (cant get them on the radio) and tell them I am "on the ground at ABCDE requesting a clearance for take-off and I can maintain obstacle septation to 3000' ".

They usually give me a clearance with a void time of about 10 min and within 1500' or so I'm usually "radar contact cleared as filed and up to requested altitude".

Occasionally I will get a controller that is unfamiliar and will ask "have you done this before?" :D:D
 
Wesael said:
I usually call them on the telephone (cant get them on the radio) and tell them I am "on the ground at ABCDE requesting a clearance for take-off and I can maintain obstacle septation to 3000'
Click to expand...

I have done this too and it works great IF you have a good number. It is a lot easier to hit your release window when you call on your cell from the run-up area.

Is there a good on-line source of all the telephone numbers?
 
tkatc said:
Airfields are usually TERPS out for IFR operations. Specifically they are concerned with obstruction clearance. You are flying out of an unknown field?

Anyway, the best way to get a clearance is ON THE GROUND. That way you have everything you need and the controller confirms all this while things are stationary. He doesn't have to separate you from anything at that point.

Now, you could get the IFR release off the ground and the controller will just "block" that airspace until you are identified and on your way. They will probably clear you to ABC "VIA" DEF...that word VIA puts the responsibility on the pilot to maintain his/her own obstruction clearance.

The other way, and this may be preferred by many controllers, after you get your clearance on the ground, you depart VFR and then request to pick up your IFR when airborne. That way, the controller doesn't have to block any airspace, you will be VFR and he will identify you, from there he will assess your proximity to other airspace/traffic and grant your request for IFR.

The worst way, IMO, is to file, depart VFR and expect the controller to drop everything to issue you a clearance AND separate you at the same time. It could eat up some valuable frequency time as well as creating unnecessary workload for both you and the controller. I sometimes ask this pilot why he didn't pick up his clearance on the ground....I don't really care what the answer is but it is my friendly reminder that he should have. If I'm particularly annoyed....I might read the clearance especially fast so he really has to concentrate. I think they get the point but perhaps not.

I realize there are times when it is impossible to get the clearance on the ground, and I hope this doesn't sound like I am not willing to provide exceptional service, but everyone has thier own pet peeves. :eek:
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I was looking for - I had an inkling that departing VFR and requesting clearance on a pop-up was about the worst way to do it, since they would not know to expect me. In my case, I would need a good telephone number for a center controller (I'm outside Midland/Big Spring/San Angelo app/dep coverage) for phone clearance. Being situated almost directly under V68 might put a wrinkle in it occasionally with other fast-moving traffic.
 
The good old fashioned "Green book", or AF/D as some call it, has all this info. I use skychartspro and all this info is available on my iPhone or iPad. Both my GPSs carry this info as well. At least they list frequencies.... When all else fails there is always 1-800-WX-BRIEF that will get you the nearest flight service station. :)
 
Yep, the frequencies are easy enough to find, but the local t/n's for clearance delivery seem to be a well hidden item.

Flight Service or a local airport bum are the only places I've found that can provide them.
 
I'm also in the boonies of Timbuktoo and have Augusta (Georgia) Approach's phone number in my cell phone, which THEY had earlier suggested to me. After filing earlier on Fltplan.com, a quick call at the runup area activates the flight plan.

Best,
 
Clearance Delivery Number

A good number to have in the cell phone for departures from airports without ATC communications is the Lockheed Martin Clearance Delivery Line - 888-766-8267. I call them after engine start and usually have the clearance by the time I'm ready for departure.
 
bruceg said:
A good number to have in the cell phone for departures from airports without ATC communications is the Lockheed Martin Clearance Delivery Line - 888-766-8267. I call them after engine start and usually have the clearance by the time I'm ready for departure.
Click to expand...

Is that a legit, live, ATC-coordinated contact? I would certainly hate to launch into a violation because the left hand wasn't talking to the right...:eek:
 
Yes it is. After they ask for your departure and destination airports and the departure runway, they put you on hold for 2 or 3 minutes and coordinate with the ATC facility whose airspace you will be entering. I've been disconnected a couple of times during the hold period but they called right back with the clearance. ATC is always happy so I'm happy:)
 
Yes it is a legally valid number. Lockheed Martin are the folks who run the now-privatized FSS.
When they first took over calls to FSS asking to pick up a clearance were sometimes met with complete bewilderment. This number takes you to people who understand what you are asking for.
 
Mile High Relic said:
Yep, the frequencies are easy enough to find, but the local t/n's for clearance delivery seem to be a well hidden item.

Flight Service or a local airport bum are the only places I've found that can provide them.
Click to expand...

Whenever I receive the local approach/center telephone number (usually on an inbound leg to cancel) I make a ForeFlight comment. Just another way to help each other.
 
Ask a controller

In checking flights on flight aware I often see a VOR fix listed in the route. Is this a vector given by ATC in flight or a waypoint previously entered in an IFR flight plan?

Ie ATL278031

John Morgan
 
Keep in mind that Flight Aware is not an FAA product therefore when a controller comments on what is happening (or not happening) on the Flight Aware site, it is strictly opinion based on "on the job" experience. There have been several threads trying to explain/figure out exactly how flight aware ticks. Many of the posters give an example of what they experienced to the thread and we piece it together based on those facts.

As for your question, I'd have to see an example of what you are looking at to help. I'm not sure that I fully understand your question....but the example you list is certainly a VOR fix. We typically do not issue those types of fixes in an IFR clearance. So your assumption that it was a vector or shortcut seems valid. Again...show me what you are looking at so I can look it over.
 
Legit

I have used it several times. It is the national clearance delivery number. I have called them in the run up area, ready to launch and they gave me the usual clearance. When I departed center was expecting me.

It is great, especially if you do not have an RCO or GCO available.
 
If you go on the flight aware Internet site and look up a flight, the flight plan is often listed at the lower right on the page. I talked to an IFR pilot and he said that the fix listed is assigned by the FAA computer and not a waypoint requested by the pilot.

John Morgan
 
Meaning of numbers in DP/STAR names?

I asked my CFI about this once, and he scratched his head also. What is the meaning, if any, behind the number in a DP's or STAR's name? e.g. at CVG in Cincinnati, there's the Bluegrass 9, Cincinnati 3, GIPLE 4, HAGLE 3, etc etc etc DPs.

The only thing I could remotely think of is the names correspond to initial departure / approach altitudes?

Just curious...
 
sbalmos said:
What is the meaning, if any, behind the number in a DP's or STAR's name? e.g. at CVG in Cincinnati, there's the Bluegrass 9, Cincinnati 3, GIPLE 4, HAGLE 3, etc etc etc DPs.
Click to expand...

As I understand it, it's just the version number. My as well be the "HAGLE v3" departure.

-Jim
 
fehdxl said:
As I understand it, it's just the version number. My as well be the "HAGLE v3" departure.

-Jim
Click to expand...

Yes, that's my understanding as well. When I was a Tower ATC, we had a PTK 2 departure. There was no PTK 1. It disappeared as soon at the PTK 2 procedures were published.

bob
 
Drones

The drones that are flying around , are they equipped with a transponder ? Do they squawk a predetermined code ?
Tom
 
Somehow ATC knows where they are. Air Force is constantly testing them at Beale AFB here in Northern CA; you can go thru the TFR if you talk to ATC.
 
BobTurner said:
Somehow ATC knows where they are. Air Force is constantly testing them at Beale AFB here in Northern CA; you can go thru the TFR if you talk to ATC.
Click to expand...

I won a raffle at a recent FAA safety meeting and got a tour of the Tucson TRACON on the D-M base.

This question came up and I got the impression that drones are only operated in Restricted areas or TFRs at the moment.

A daily TFR is announced for a week at a time over Sierra Vista (Libby AAF base) for the border patrol - typical one here -

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_3_1769.html

A new TFR is created for each day -

From March 11, 2013 at 0225 UTC (March 10, 2013 at 1925 MST)
To March 11, 2013 at 0700 UTC (March 11, 2013 at 0000 MST)

I guess they are after the evening border crossers...
 
There are many different types of drones...search UAS as that is the newest term. I have not worked drones here in the US but when I was deployed I worked the Predator just like any other aircraft.

I'm sure some do not but the ones I worked DO have a transponder.
 
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