when you buy a partially completed kit, how do you prove the amatuer built?

I see several kits advertised as 50%-80% done, one that the owner says will only take 2-3 months to finish. If i bought one of these, how do i say i built it, or is there a way to say someone else built part of it? is it a problem to have the bill of sale from the factory change hands?

I am considering buying one, but only if it is not a possible problem or something i have to lie about to get the final FAA approval. As in "yes i built this plane, 51%"

Sounds like you want to perjure yourself!!

LifeofReiley said:

Sounds like you want to perjure yourself!!

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maybe my first post wasn't clear, but that is what i want to avoid. I want to know how to do it legally if possible, if not i won't do it.

I don't believe it matters how many amatuers builds it for the purpose of getting it regdistered as an experemental, amatuer built. The issue will be if you also want to get the repairmens certificate for it. That requires you show them enough prof that you built enough of it to warrant the certificate. The nearly compete kits you describe, I would say you will not get the repairmens cert. I'm sure on of the DAR's will chime in.

It's not Legal to state you built 51% if you did not do the work. This issue is a thorn that digs deep for many. We really want to preserve experimental builder rights and the ability to continue...

Anyone that has ever built an RV of the same model, can ask you three questions about the build, and know if you built this model of aircraft or not.

My understanding is that it doesn't matter how many builders worked on it. As long as the 51% or more was done by amateurs is what matters. You should get the previous builders log and hopefully pictures that will help show the previous work was done by individuals. Then you are legal in having it registered as an Experimental Amateur Built aircraft.
The issue of getting the repairman certificate is separate. That is up to the local FAA office to determine if you performed enough and learned enough to be issued the repairman cert.

One of our resident DARs could probably confirm or correct this.

51% amateur-built.

These posts are correct. You need to be able to show that the aircraft is at least 51% amateur-built. Not that YOU built 51%. In this case you will need to acquire the builder's log and pictures with the project.
And as stated, the repairman certificate is a different subject. For this, you must convince the FSDO that you are familiar enough with the aircraft that you can adequately conduct the annual condition inspection.

My only problem was this statement... "As in "yes i built this plane, 51%".
Yes, you can have 10 builders build an experimental. They way I read the original post, he wants to state he actually built the plane. That would be false.

Easy Big Fella!

LifeofReiley said:

My only problem was this statement... "As in "yes i built this plane, 51%".
Yes, you can have 10 builders build an experimental. They way I read the original post, he wants to state he actually built the plane. That would be false.

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The way I read the gentleman's posts, he is concerned with being able to prove that it was 51% amatuer built, and getting the plane certified.
I may have missed it, but I do not believe that he mentioned a Repairman's Certificate in any of his posts. Lets see what the gentleman has to say in future posts. If he was asking for our condoning a BS story, then to the gallows!
Remember, a fair trial should be required before a proper hanging!

I purchased a project which had been started by somebody else, and researched this issue extensively by talking to my FSDO, Tech Counselors, DARs, and EAA. I was advised by EAA to get a signed statement from the initial builder stating that the project was undertaken solely for his education and recreation. This in addition to his builders logs and photos. I have not finished and so have not yet presented any of this for inspection or airworthiness certification.

Noah said:

I purchased a project which had been started by somebody else, and researched this issue extensively by talking to my FSDO, Tech Counselors, DARs, and EAA. I was advised by EAA to get a signed statement from the initial builder stating that the project was undertaken solely for his education and recreation. This in addition to his builders logs and photos. I have not finished and so have not yet presented any of this for inspection or airworthiness certification.

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This is a very good way of proving that the aircraft is "amateur-built". A good example to follow.

LifeofReiley said:

My only problem was this statement... "As in "yes i built this plane, 51%".
Yes, you can have 10 builders build an experimental. They way I read the original post, he wants to state he actually built the plane. That would be false.

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nah, i don't want to do what is false, i wasn't sure what was required and i think that is what was confusing.

so now that the eab is clarified on to the repairman certificate:


so if someone sells a 75% completed plane, and i finish it, i could have the original builder apply for the repairmans certificate (if he was local and convenient), or if i thought i knew enough of the plane i could apply for it myself?

Agreed!!

jetjok said:

Remember, a fair trial should be required before a proper hanging!

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With the FAA's recent "clarification" of the 51% rule I understand that everyone around here is a bit touchy about people misrepresenting an E-AB airplane, but let's not jump down the throats of those that are asking questions.

There are a lot of people who come here for information and to ask questions of those more experienced who have walked down this road before. There was nothing in Danny's post saying he was trying to "bend" the rules, in fact he flat out states that he wants to avoid doing that.

I read some of the responses in this thread as accusatory and attacking. Rather than attacking a newbie (he only has 19 posts here) we should invite him in and share our knowledge in a constructive way.

Just my 2 cents....

and for the record I am not one of the ones with any knowledge to share....I'm a newbie myself and trying to absorb these forums like a sponge!

jtrusso said:

With the FAA's recent "clarification" of the 51% rule I understand that everyone around here is a bit touchy about people misrepresenting an E-AB airplane, but let's not jump down the throats of those that are asking questions.

There are a lot of people who come here for information and to ask questions of those more experienced who have walked down this road before. There was nothing in Danny's post saying he was trying to "bend" the rules, in fact he flat out states that he wants to avoid doing that.

I read some of the responses in this thread as accusatory and attacking. Rather than attacking a newbie (he only has 19 posts here) we should invite him in and share our knowledge in a constructive way.

Just my 2 cents....

and for the record I am not one of the ones with any knowledge to share....I'm a newbie myself and trying to absorb these forums like a sponge!

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thanks john-

I've done some work at the lancair factory, and have taken intro to RV building, but i really don't know much about the FAA rules and regulations.

for example: I thought i reserved some N numbers, but i can't find them yet on a search of my name, and I haven't gotten anything from the FAA (written or email) that says i have "619DB" or "308DS" etc etc. maybe they are slow, but i would have thought i'd get confirmation other than "your card was charged $20"

I live in Bend, Oregon. I know someone that works at Epic, and other than that i have zero connection with Epic or have any desire to push, bend, or find loopholes in the rules. or ignore them.

if my questions sound funny, it is probably because i don't know half of the question, not to mention the answer.

Danny7 said:

so if someone sells a 75% completed plane, and i finish it, i could have the original builder apply for the repairmans certificate (if he was local and convenient), or if i thought i knew enough of the plane i could apply for it myself?

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Let me start by saying I'm not an expert... I've never even stayed at a Holiday Inn.

My understanding is that even if you buy an already flying experimental airplane then you, as the owner, can do maintenance, repairs, improvements, modifications and basically everything except sign off on annual condition inspections. If you bought a flying RV you would need an A&P (or the one person specifically authorized by the FAA do sign offs on that airplane) to sign off on the annual condition inspections for you each year.

So, if you try to become authorized to sign off on annual condition inspections and they turn you down, you are still able to do much more of your own work than, say, the owner of a 172.

If I were in your situation, I would try to convince the FAA that since I finished the airplane and determined that it was ready for inspection by a DAR, that I was essentially signing off on the 'first' condition inspection. If the DAR agrees that it is ready for phase 1 then arguably, I had a good understanding of the airplane's condition. Since they didn't have a problem with me doing that for the first time, then they shouldn't have a problem with me doing basically the same thing again each year.

At least that's what I would tell them, they of course get to make the decision.

Even if you don't get authorization from the FAA to sign off on annual conditional inspections, you still won't be in a bad situation. As long as you don't misrepresent anything, the worst that will happen is that the FAA tells you "no" you need to have a professional airplane mechanic sign off on the airplane's condition once a year. Your maintenance costs, if you work on the plane yourself, should still be much lower than owning a certified airplane.

Maybe Mel, or someone else who actually knows what they're talking about will chime in.

I wish you the best with your decision. Actually, if I were buying a partially built kit I'd be more worried about the quality of the workmanship than signing off on annual condition inspections. I'm critical enough of my own craftsmanship -- I'd never get to sleep at night if I had to think about mistakes somebody else may have made on my airplane that I didn't even know about.

Mark has it exactly right.

I would do just what he suggests. Maybe the FSDO will go along with it, maybe they won't. Every FSDO is a little different. It certainly never hurts to try.

Mark is correct...

....and we had a very similar situation in my hangar. My buddy bought a -4 that was built up to the firewall and on the gear with the canopy built and attached. One wing was complete and the other needed three skins rivetted on. Empennage was complete and mounted and the whole airplane so far, had been amateur built by a guy in Canada. It needed an instrument panel and instruments, a cowl, engine and accessories and all the wiring.

We told the DAR this same story and he said, "No problem" and we got the pink slip and the repairman certificate.

The reasons were that my friend had disassembled the tail for inspection and storage and did all the wiring and installed the engine and all the firewall forward stuff, and made all the fuel and oil hoses. We also rigged the incidence and drilled the rear spars. I helped with W@B. Since he literally had been all over the airplane with my assistance, he knew/knows it intimately and I believe that the DAR also saw that. He had probably built 20% of the airplane but finished 100% of it...all of it amateur built and in my opinion, in full compliance with the spirit of the regs. This is what I feel is perfectly okay to do, since everyone is on the up and up and no commercial assistance was used.

Regards,

Get the current owners build record when you buy, written and photos whatever the person has. You can't get credit for what you haven't built, which is the same for QB, but you can show it was amateur built.

Danny7 said:

for example: I thought i reserved some N numbers, but i can't find them yet on a search of my name, and I haven't gotten anything from the FAA (written or email) that says i have "619DB" or "308DS" etc etc. maybe they are slow, but i would have thought i'd get confirmation other than "your card was charged $20"

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Danny,
The FAA database shows that N619DB is reserved in your name. N308DS is assigned to a Beech Baron in Montana.

Mel said:

Danny,
The FAA database shows that N619DB is reserved in your name. N308DS is assigned to a Beech Baron in Montana.

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If the search comes back as assigned but the status is expired, can the number be transferred. Doesn't apply to the 2 above but one I was curious about